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While playing in tournaments I’ve recently noticed how I feel like I’m fighting with one hand tied behind my back with CSM. Below I’ll explain my reasonings behind CSM’s lack of competitiveness in 5th edition.


I’ve been playing CSM for quite some time now and really enjoyed the variety in the 3.5 dex. I didn’t really mind the changes in the 4th edition dex even though they severely reduced the number of viable CSM comps. That aside, here’s a list of the general strengths of the CSM dex and how they’ve become weaknesses. (I’m not trying to QQ, I’m just articulating how perceived strengths are no longer viable)


Lash:

Some people rely on lash as a crutch to win but I believe it should be used as a supportive weapon to increase the effectiveness with the rest of your army. However the recent shift in the meta game towards uber-mech and uber-psychic defense has made lash pretty much useless. For example: I recently played in a three game tournament and I only successfully casted lash once using double lash princes. Newer codexes now have ways of getting a ton of vehicles (IG, Orks) or have ways of crippling lash’s effectiveness via psychic negation or making lash more difficult to cast (SW, C:SM, Tyranids, Eldar and soon to be BA). Lash is a great ability but the fact that everyone else has changed while CSM has stayed the same has rendered it largely ineffective. The problem is CSM are forced to still use this HQ simply because there are very few other viable options.


Mechanization and Melta-Spam:

I covered this a bit in the Lash section but the fact that armies can take so many vehicles that have so many always of ignoring your attacks makes CSM effectiveness at killing vehicles quite poor. (i.e. Flat Out, KFF, Stones, soon to be BA skimmer, etc.) It seems like the meta is forcing you to spam as much melta as possible so you can kill these vehicles (this is obviously a double edged sword). Take too many melta and you are open to getting trainwrecked by horde armies. However if you don’t take a ton of melta you pretty much autolose against Landraider spam or IG Leafblower. This makes unit selections and winning tournaments seem like a craps shoot. (Yes I know obliterators are good against almost anything; they are also quite squishy)


Troops:

Chaos troops, albeit versatile, are very expensive. They pretty much need a rhino so they can get anywhere and so they can survive one round of shooting. This = 1 more easy KP.

-Plague marines are the obvious choice for BIS. They have survivability, good weapons options, and pretty much basic chaos goodness. They’re slow but I can live with that tradeoff. The problem is that there’s a large drop-off from here.
-I’ve found that Bezerkers are quite useless in todays metagame. Hitting on 3’s and wounding on 3’s is quite awful when you’re facing a giant horde of FNP tyranids or a giant mob of orks (cc against horde is supposed to be their specialty!!!). They’re also quite useless against vehicles, have low survivability, are slow, and need the charge to be even remotely effective.
-I think everyone knows why Thousand Sons are bad. Overcosted, gimmicky, slow as molasses in a blizzard, overcosted, prone to psychic defenses, and did I mention that they cost a ton for even a basic squad?
-Noise Marines suffer from a lot of the problems that TS have. They cost a lot to get their good weaponry and they are still slow. They’re somewhat interesting but I can’t see them even winning their points back.
-Basic Chaos Marines are interesting if you’re trying to get some cheap meltas or just to put more bodies on the board but the cult options are generally better.


Mobility:

CSM obviously suffer from a lack of mobility (as do mostly all MEQs). How am I ever going to hold multiple objectives if my troops get into a tarpit CC 2nd turn or their rhinos get lascannoned to oblivion turn 1? I’ve used a lot of reserves, Dsing, outflanking to try and combat this but this is generally to no avail.




I was wondering if anyone else thought the same way I did about CSM. I guess the evolving weaknesses of CSM are simply the product of codex creep. I’ve never played another army (other than dabbling with Daemons) so I’m not used to codecies becoming less effective over time. If anyone else has any other ideas/views on this topic please feel free to critique or supplement. Thanks!

I've never once used lash so I think that says how badly I need to win =p. We don't have a weak codex as much as some of the new ones are very strong. Space wolves especially have a lot of the things we do and often for cheaper with more standard special rules. I feel a little behind the 8-ball in some games but I also think games are very much up to the players behind them. Dark eldar/necrons have some of the most outdated codexes possible and they can still kick ass if played right with the right tactics.

I'm hopeful that after maybe necrons we'll get our new codex, get our full amount of chapters back with all their special rules, and get some point values adjusted and get back in line with the rest of the newer codices.

I've actually considered more than once to doing a pre-heresy csm army and using the space wolves or codex space marine book to create my army list. I've always stopped because I miss my sorc lord with wings, my raptors, and my autocannon havocs. Even if they aren't the top competitive army I chose them for more than that.

What neuters the CSM codex is that you have exactly three slots (Heavy) to fit in all of your long-range fire support. Everything else is either a single one-off heavy weapon on a squad that wants to be mobile or ineffective at the points cost, like the Reaper autocannon.

Mechanization and Melta-Spam: PM and Vanilla CSM can carry 2 meltas per squad. Vanilla CSM squads are actually better at the melta game than regular space marines who can only carry 1 per squad. If the game is melta spam chaos can play that game, and play it well.

The best way to handle a horde list is to charge it. 10 CSM or PM charging=27 attacks+ the champion.

Troops: Chaos has better troops than vanilla marines. The strength of a chaos army lies in it's troops, and the big mistake most chaos players make is they spend too many points on elites and heavy support. 2/3 games are objective based where only troops can score.

Noise Marines and Thousand sons take a lot of skill to use. They are not bad units, they just take a lot of skill to play.

Mobility: Rhinos are mobile enough. The only real flaw of the current chaos army is a troops heavy chaos list should go mechanized, which gives away a lot of VP in an annihilation.

It's all about perspective. One can call the glass half empty of half full.

How is a 2+ save with 2 wounds squishy? That's twice as tough as a terminator. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about terminators being fragile.

Halsfield wrote:I've never once used lash so I think that says how badly I need to win =p. We don't have a weak codex as much as some of the new ones are very strong. Space wolves especially have a lot of the things we do and often for cheaper with more standard special rules.

I think this is a more appropriate statement. The major failing of our codex when it first came out was in the fluff/background department. Competitively, it was solid. Not amazing but it worked.

Codex Creep however has turned a solid list into a merely decent one in comparision.

As for the Lash issue, I've been preaching that since the new SM codex. There is too much mech and too much anti-Psyker to rely on it. Besides our DPs are best served by being in assault or hunting down enemy armor, not directing traffic.

Yeah, I've got to say that CSM are still a top tier army. I've only been playing Warhammer for 2 years now but I can honestly say that I can count my loses on one hand and I've never placed lower than 3rd in a tournament( even my first tournament I came in 3rd).

Out of all the armies I think Chaos Marines are one of the best at playing to their strengths while ignoring their weaknesses. We don't have fast vehicles, skimmers and our bikers are a little expensive.

What we do have is DP's with wings. I'm not a fan of lash princes, a DP running around with the purpose of using a psychic power is a waste to me. An 18" charge is hard to get away from, with the crazy stat line and taking marks/powers for cc they can be used to herd, disrupt, kill, and well anything. DP's are offensive juggernaughts and imo one of the best HQ's in the game.

So our troops MUST be put in rhinos, welcome to 5thed. When you drop off your awsome, adaptive, MEQ troops use the rhinos. Tank shock, block LoS, etc. and most of all, keep them naked unless you have absolutly knowhere else to put the points. Yes NM and TS leave something to be desired but the other 3 more than make up for it. PM and vanilla CSM are by far the better but only because Zerkers require more skill. Our HS just needs to compliment our troops, the only one I don't use often is the defiler ( crazy I know ). The rest of the army is so good at CC and med to short range fire fights that I feel the HS should all be long range fire support. I personally now almost always take 2 preds with AC/LC and 2-3 obliterators. I'm currently building a large and various havoc squad to replace a pred every now and then.

I could go on and on but, people that go around thinking that CSM means Lash princes PM's and Obliterators are the only way to win , fail at Chaos Marines.

YOu make some good points, Vace Glace, and I see where you are coming from.

I think CSM are still viable, a friend of mine went undefeated in the last GT we played in with them, but they are not the big dog they were, I agree.

Perhaps you should try changing up your old tactics? Winged princes with warp time are still great, and CSM troops are excellent, especially Plague Marines as you noted.

As sourclams said, I would like to see some more long range anti tank in other slots, and for their Fast Attack section to get a total overhaul. Bring back some of the variety.

I have to say, I think chaos is still top tier. Lash wins games. That has not changed, and will not change--you can have bad rolls, you can have bad matchups, but all it takes is 1 successful lash, with the right armylist, and you win.

Have you used lash paired with 3 oblits before? Not to sound mean, but you know that you can hit 19 models with a single plasma cannon (and you get 3 per oblit squad) if you lash them in a clump, right?

As for berzerkers being bad, again I disagree. Beserkers are one of the best assault troops in the game. Will they struggle versus THSS termies? Of course. But with 8 basic models, on the charge with a rhino you are looking at 32 attacks, 21 hits, 14 wounds, ~5 dead marine equivs or 12 dead orks. The attacks back at that point will be negligible, even for counter-attacking spacewolves.

The key is playing them right. You dont assault out of the gate. You tie up shooty units with beserkers, and shoot assaulty stuff. Lash facilitates this to a great degree.

Will you have a hard time versus the tier 1 mech guard lists? Well yeah! They are tier 1 after all. But ask a fatecrucher daemon army if they would rather guard or twin lash, and I guarentee they say guard.

I think that chaos lists are definately competative, and you don't have to rely on Lash princes to do it.

Chaos has things that many other armies do ot have (the ability to increase your base A, T, I or get an invul save springs to mind). Obliterators are arguably one of the most versatile HS choices in the game.
There are definately weak points - i'm not a big fan of raptors personally.

But i think calling them a second tier army is a little unfair as they can still beat the stuffing out of any other army given the right dice rolls and army list.

But i think calling them a second tier army is a little unfair as they can still beat the stuffing out of any other army given the right dice rolls and army list.

How exactly is that not true of, well, *any* army? Of course an army is going to win with perfect dice rolling and an ideal match-up.

The CSM army can still bloody compete....and that should be good enough....

To think about, only a few dexes really have a difficult time competing, or rely only on a certain build to be competitive...pure DH, necrons, and to a certain extent the tau come into mind. The rest (including dark eldar) can definitely still give a good fight....

The sad thing with CSM is that it really only has one 'competitive' build.

They can compete, but not as diversely as other codices.

imweasel wrote:The sad thing with CSM is that it really only has one 'competitive' build.

They can compete, but not as diversely as other codices.

That competitive build is not even really that competitive.

Compared to units coming out of new codices, Obliterators don't even offer that much firepower, nor durability.

For a 75 point model, they are extremely vulnerable to Str8+ AP2 fire, or to CC in general. And they can be killed by small-arms fire. It's not even really that tough.

imweasel wrote:The sad thing with CSM is that it really only has one 'competitive' build.

They can compete, but not as diversely as other codices.

I disagree and I've fought the Lash, PM, Oblit list with my own CSM. He was taken to school, there isn't a codex out there with one competitive build.

The list you speak of is just easy to use, crappy players can take it and do well. That doesn't make it the only way to play the Codex.

Good players play good lists and win games,

Good lists posted on the internet used by bad players doesn't make the codex bad

Bad players shouldn't design codexes.

Milkstorm wrote:

imweasel wrote:The sad thing with CSM is that it really only has one 'competitive' build.

They can compete, but not as diversely as other codices.

I disagree and I've fought the Lash, PM, Oblit list with my own CSM. He was taken to school, there isn't a codex out there with one competitive build.

The list you speak of is just easy to use, crappy players can take it and do well. That doesn't make it the only way to play the Codex.

Good players play good lists and win games,

Good lists posted on the internet used by bad players doesn't make the codex bad

Bad players shouldn't design codexes.

Hes right i know a couple of builds that do well. Last tourney i saw a vanilla CSM army with meltas and Pm's with Plasma's in the same army do work. The lash isnt as good to deal with mech armies, and that is why its having all the issues it is. Even mech noise marines do pretty well from what i saw.

I play Eldar and I can tell you the moment the new chaos codex came out I got scared, and started to take Runes-Of-Warding all the time. I don't like other people moving my guys, I need my cover saves. Look at it like this: There are LOTS of options for what you can do with CSM... well more options than smurf marines... not all of them will be as good as others but hell man, you get an upgradable cc monster with an 18" charge! That, and lash+obliterators is a nasty and obvious combo. Consider yourself lucky your codex got an update right around when the new rules came out. We just drift around the webway with GW telling us that the 4th ed. codex was our update... while making ork boyz and guardsmen cheaper, space wolves huger and cheaper than regular marines, and so on. I just deal with it... your special character is far better than mine but costs less... oh well... but I don't think CSM is really in any place to bitch compared to some other codex. My 4th ed. guard were useless for instance (wish I still had those figs nowadays), now they are an army everyone is scared of. At least you got a new codex, y'know? The way they time things, a new Eldar codex will probably come out right BEFORE they change all the rules again, so at least the CSM got theirs at the same time as the new rules.

-Vanilla CSM are pretty much interchangeable with Plague Marines. One is better offensively, the other defensively.
-Hordes are not a problem because our troops our sturdy, have bolters and pistols, and have 2 attacks each. Meltas are also assault.

However, I agree that they dont quite have the "oomph". Chaos just doesnt have these special rules that all these new armies are packing these days (due to the codex being a dumbed down piece of garbage). I dont think theyre bad, infact i still think theyre quite strong, but there arnt any special tricks up any sleeves.

Ive definitely been adjusting my list for months now. Options I would never consider before are now in my main list (havocs, dreadnoughts, predators) because theyre simply better against mech and at range, while being cheap so more men can move up the field. It's also far more fun to play which is a bonus

I disagree with the point that Berzerkers are useless.

I've never played a game where Berzerkers haven't gotten their points back. They've always mowed through Orks well enough, and Tyranids as well.

And you can take a Champ with a Power Fist, to better fare against tanks.

Thousand Sons are hardly useless. They destroy if played right.

I think the units that need replacing/getting better are:

Noise Marines
Possessed
Chosen
Bikers
Raptors
Dreadnoughts

And that's about it.

But doesn't every player think something about their army list choices is underpowered? I Don't like that my guardians are punk compared to an ork boy who costs half the points either, but thats just what it is... they don't like that I can tarpit them either. Each army has its drawbacks, perhaps oversights by the designers, but they also all have their strengths (yeah I wish I could get troops with termie armor just for taking a certain special character for instance aka space wolves). Appreciate it for what it is. CHaos marines are far from being 'weak'... maybe the problem is that the last codex was overly strong. Maybe everybody at tournaments should just play space wolves, just to stop the whining. Can't complain about them.

This is not a QQ or a "my codex is crap for x and x reasons" post.

I was trying to show how every new codex that's released has a lot counter-CSM flavour to it.
I'm not trying to say that CSM are bad in any way (I actually think they're still quite good).
It's just that their effectiveness has been drastically reduced over time via codex creep (this usually happens to every army).


Note: Tier 2 armies are still fun and competitive; they just can't mingle very well with Tier 1 armies unless they specifically kit out their units to beat them. I think everyone knows who's in Tier 3


I think a lot of people have missed the point of (or misinterpreted) my post.

Well, that's just codex creep restated isn't it? You had a powerful army when it first came out, but now other more powerful armies are getting supported by stupidly overly powerful rules and yours isn't as powerful by comparison. Think of all the armies that have been left behind. What you call "tier 3". Once they get up to speed again they will rule the boards I guess, but until then, we just have to take what we have to work with and make it work.

I don't really think it's a counter CSM totally, I think it's a counter to MEQs in general. Most armies being played have the 4's across the board with the 3+ save. Psychic powers are becoming a bigger part of the game. Unfortunately that is taking its toll on the Lash builds.

Also, the sad thing is that the codex updates really just fuel the whole wheel mentality of the game right now. Some armies find themselves up top, while others find themselves down low. Which can easily be changed with a codex release making the popper a prince again.

My main problem is simply things not matching the fluff like they used to, and points costs being way too high. Why GW can look at certain new models, compare them to existing models in the CSM army, and go "yeah, despite being better, he should totally cost less."

Look at what we do have. Princes are immune to a lot of things that other HQs fear, or at least more resilient. We can charge a squad of marines with a powerfist and have a reasonable chance of coming out alive. Our HQs can kill dreadnoughts in assault. Our troops bring anti-tank weaponry and stay mobile with it, and don't cost much [SW cost even less and are better, but that's another gripe], meaning we can take either redundant amounts of tank killing in other slots or use them for assault or anti-infantry. Our rhinos can mount anti-tank weaponry. While most people say not to use it, I'm a big advocate. They may be 1-shot only, but they can really affect the game in a big way.

What NM do well is help even the playing field against other MEQ. That doomsiren is devastating, especially combined with lash. 1ksons are supposedly just as good, but the enemy can still take cover saves.

Halsfield wrote: We don't have a weak codex as much as some of the new ones are very strong.

Halsfeild has it

Strength and weakness are only in relation to other similar entities, so if other codices are strong the chaos codex is by default weak.

For the record, the "competitive" CSM build is your favorite variation of 'Bunch of troops in rhinos, 3 Heavy fire support units, and maybe 3 elites or something because in general the rest of the codex isn't as good as its Troops slots'.

If you're trying to run competitive CSM, it's going to be a rhino-rush wall of manpower.

It can be made to work. I actually did quite well at last year's 'Ard Boyz with Chaos. It is, however, quickly losing its lustre with the sheer amount of long range firepower in the recent codices.

Armies whose only anti-tank was a huge amount of meltaguns were a doable matchup for CSM because they're okay if they can get close. Max Overdrive Space Wolves or Chimera Wall Guard, due to their ability to open up Chaos rhinos so early (like, turn 1) make the rhino rush harder to achieve.

sourclams wrote:For the record, the "competitive" CSM build is your favorite variation of 'Bunch of troops in rhinos, 3 Heavy fire support units, and maybe 3 elites or something because in general the rest of the codex isn't as good as its Troops slots'.

If you're trying to run competitive CSM, it's going to be a rhino-rush wall of manpower.

It can be made to work. I actually did quite well at last year's 'Ard Boyz with Chaos. It is, however, quickly losing its lustre with the sheer amount of long range firepower in the recent codices.

Armies whose only anti-tank was a huge amount of meltaguns were a doable matchup for CSM because they're okay if they can get close. Max Overdrive Space Wolves or Chimera Wall Guard, due to their ability to open up Chaos rhinos so early (like, turn 1) make the rhino rush harder to achieve.

Yep, when everyone else is getting better firepower in more different slots for cheaper... well, we're still good against Tau, right?

If the complaint that "rhino rush" is not a strongpoint because your rhinos are weaker than other armies transports (but yeah I could get 3 of 'em for the price of 1 of my serpents... but that's another gripe)... why not just use an occasional rhino as mobile terrain and concentrate on the strongpoints like DPs and sorcerors and basic infantry that rock for their points cost and are very upgradeable? "rhino rush" will never compete with the Tau's "Fish of fury" or the Eldar's "aspect wave" or other such blatant strategies but that is why/because rhinos are cheap transports compared to what other armys have to pay for theirs. So maybe the problem is that everyone else has better transports in a game that is turning mech-happy if anything just to avoid psyker powers? Well CSM has much better troops (barring SW but again, that's another gripe) and much better psyker powers. Use your strengths, don't try to make your weaknesses work, if you use your strengths you will find that you have one of the meanest lists in the top tier.

Uh, Chaos *doesn't* have "much better psychic powers" than the new codices. Lash is the only really unique Chaos-only power, although Warptime is a more souped-up version of most codices' CC-enhancing powers. Everything else is a solid serving of 'meh'.

And the Daemon Prince is not really a strongpoint of the codex. He's effective at ~150-ish points, but the only reason the DP is regarded as so good is because in general your other options are poor comparatively. The DP is a T5 or T6 Marine with a modest invul save and 4 wounds. He dies to autocannons and missile launchers in a pretty sad way. DPs synergize with rhinos because it's dilution of firepower, but as a killy HQ the DP pales in comparison to, say, a Wolf Lord. Cheaper, but not as effective.

The reason why Rhino Rush is the only viable build is because the Rhino is a very effective transport and CSM Troops tend to be better pound-for-pound than everything else. If there was any way to get two heavy weapons into a 5 man squad the codex might even be somewhat viable again.