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Seriously!

Is it because it takes a long time to deep strike 18 times before the game even starts? As far as I can tell, they are very underpriced. Consider this:

Let's say I take 18 spore mines. I fill your deployment zone with them. Now what do you do??? That's only 180 points, and they will wreck any non-vehicle unit.

They just seem too good to be true.

Actually, spore mines dont do anything in most games. Unless you are playing in dawn of war, in which everything can drive on, you are allowed to place models in your deployment zone anywhere you want. So, you deepstrike your 3 clusters of mines. I put any vehicle in the game 1 inch away from them. The spore mines implode. I say thank you for not spending that 180 points on a tervigon.

If your opponent is all foot infantry, and if they will be weak versus the mines, then they may lose a few models. However, even in those cases, any infantry list without vehicles will have hundreds of foot models if horde, or at least a 3+ save otherwise, and if you use max coherency for your front ranks, the spore mines will only hit 1-2 models max. Meaning, if all 18 scatter the direction you want (VERY VERY unlikely), you will kill 10 of the 180+ ork boyz in the horde infantry list, or 4 of the 60+ space marines in foot marines.

and after you stacked 180+ models in coherency in three layers, so they fit in your deployment zone ... see where i'm going with this?
I think the idea of early mines is rather to have the enemy change his way of deploying the army, in a way that he has to react even
before the game has begun, thus giving you the possibility to dictate further actions, then to bomb him out of the game ...

also because they are kill points that are practically given away.

each spore is a seperate unit once deployed, therefore it is a single kill point.

thats why the biovore was such a poor choice. it fired a kill point unit each time it shot.

Spore mines no longer give kill points. Ever.

18 spore mines will take up a lot of space. You can't deploy within 1" of them, so 18 of them spread out will make deploying very difficult, especially for big armies. If the tyranid player does not want his opponent to set up in a certain way, he can just place the spores where he doesn't want you to deploy.

I am actually quite curious about sporemines. Sporemines in center field makes it easier to give outflanking stealers targets within charge range. In one fight of three, (the Dawn of war deployment) you can seriously limit your opponents first turn, and they can be used to limit the usefulness of infiltration. Against mechanised armies they are pretty much wasted. I don't think I'd bring them to a tournament, but I'll probably use them now and then once my suicide bomber stand-ins are ready.

Maybe I'm off (codex out of reach) but don't the mines always have to deploy by deepstrike? I didn't think you could set them up in the opponent's Dzone, but that you had to deep strike them into it.

Yes, they always deepstrike before deployment. It adds to their randomness, but you can place their "intended deepstrike point" anywhere on the table, even inside your opponents deployment zone. In a Dawn of war, or if you have some other rules that give them a larger "control radius", such as when placing infiltrators, they actually cover quite a lot of table. Try it out.

I guess we always read that they deep strike as a unit, meaning all clustered together. So if you don't go first you get a big clump of guys until they start to move apart.

MorbidlyObeseMonkey wrote:18 spore mines will take up a lot of space. You can't deploy within 1" of them, so 18 of them spread out will make deploying very difficult, especially for big armies. If the tyranid player does not want his opponent to set up in a certain way, he can just place the spores where he doesn't want you to deploy.

The problem is you're not allowed to spread them out. They deep strike in units.

Nightwatch wrote:

MorbidlyObeseMonkey wrote:18 spore mines will take up a lot of space. You can't deploy within 1" of them, so 18 of them spread out will make deploying very difficult, especially for big armies. If the tyranid player does not want his opponent to set up in a certain way, he can just place the spores where he doAfteresn't want you to deploy.

The problem is you're not allowed to spread them out. They deep strike in units.

Yes you are, but not right after they deep strike.

Pg. 48 of the Tyranid codex:

"Orbital Bombardment

. . .After they have landed, the Spore Mines in the cluster are then treated as individual spore mines, as described in the Living Bomb rule."

"Living Bomb

. . .Each spore mine model is treated as an individual unit."

So, if you buy a cluster of 6 spores for 60 pts., they deep strike on the board after deployment zones are chosen but before sides deploy. They are placed in valid deep strike formation. Once the game begins, they each move as an individual unit.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant they can't each deep strike individually.

Nightwatch wrote:Sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant they can't each deep strike individually.

Oh. . .

Well, in that case. . . yeah, you're right.

All it really takes is a few tank shocks and the spore mines all go poof.

Or parking next to them. The explode 1" away, I take a s2 hit on my tank. I can live with that.

The concept is really cool, but I'm in the camp that if you are dropping 180pts on spore mines that is one less MC I have to deal with.

The 2 times I've played against them, all I had to do was kill one in each cluster and that was enough to kill the rest of the cluster (chain reaction of explosions). But aside from that, that's 180 points not spent elsewhere, and all 3 slots of whatever they take up gone (I'm guessing fast attack), so no Gargoyles (awesome), and no harpy (pretty good), so yes . . . please take 3 full clusters of spores =D

Oshova

Mundar wrote:All it really takes is a few tank shocks and the spore mines all go poof.

Or parking next to them. The explode 1" away, I take a s2 hit on my tank. I can live with that.

The concept is really cool, but I'm in the camp that if you are dropping 180pts on spore mines that is one less MC I have to deal with.

Oshova wrote:The 2 times I've played against them, all I had to do was kill one in each cluster and that was enough to kill the rest of the cluster (chain reaction of explosions). But aside from that, that's 180 points not spent elsewhere, and all 3 slots of whatever they take up gone (I'm guessing fast attack), so no Gargoyles (awesome), and no harpy (pretty good), so yes . . . please take 3 full clusters of spores =D

Oshova

I don't know - I could still see this being viable tactic. Let me explain:

Alright, in tournaments, generally you play the three missions and you play the three setups. In any of the setups, you'd be able to deepstrike your 18 spores. Once they hit the table, they operate independantly. Sure, they can be detonated by killing one next to it - but that's only if you don't go first. Let's take a look at the setup and turn situations:

Spearhead:

You drop your spores near the back or near the front, where ever you want to corral your opponent. Where ever you set up your spores, the enemy cannot setup there. Drop the spores near cover - now you can't setup in that cover. You get the point. In Spearhead, this tactic could devastate an opponent - especially a swarm or mech army that needs all the room it has to pack all of its units into its deployment zone. If it can't be deployed, it goes into reserve. Now, if it is your turn - gravy. Your spores are now 18 individual units. If someone wants to shoot one, they have to shoot all of their weapons at one single spore. Not very tempting. And, so long as you get a 3+ on the spore drift, they're out of each others' blast radius. So, just for argument's sake, let's say your spores hit, they drift 3" away from each other. Now, you've got 18 spores crowding the deployment zone of the enemy, each one a separate unit (that doesn't count for kill points) unto itself. That is a mess. Do you have 18 units to shoot at them? If you do, you're not shooting at the swarm of tyranids crashing towards you. Or the spores could just be used to move you in a direction that the tyranid player wants. Or buy the rest of the army time while it is waiting on turn 2 for its Deathleaper, podding Zoes, Mawlocs and Trygons (with help from a Hive Tyrant).

Pitched Battle:

Not unlike Spearhead, but you can use this to potentially move your opponent to one side or the other. If you plan to set up on the left, drop your spores on his left side, so he has to set up on the right and vice versa. This is merely a diversion tactic.

Dawn of War:

This is probably the least effective setup for the spore mines, but again, you could drop them in places where you don't want your enemy to go, like near bunkers, forests or behind mountains. Force them to come out into the open simply by occupying their space.

Now, all of these scenarios don't take into account the scatter of their deep strike, but that can be debated. And, it is taking into account the fact that if you go first, this is what happens. But what if you don't go first? What if your spore mines scatter?

Well, if you don't go first, place them near your objectives. Let them fan out and screen them so that, if nothing else, the enemy has to move through a minefield of spores. If it gets close to your troops and you're in danger of being burned by your own spore (by an enemy popping it), then get 2 1/2" away from it. I mean, it's not terribly difficult. And if it scatters, work with it.

To me, the spore idea is more of a tactical choice than one that will actually wound units upon units of models. There are things that it can do for you and your setup and there are things that it can deny your enemy, setting them back on their heels turn 1. If you get to go first, the tide may be turned significantly in your favor. If not, you've lost 180 pts. of non-kill-point mines that may or may not take a few models with them.

I'm not saying I'm going to use the tactic in my 2K or 'Ard Boyz, but I can see the viability of it and, more importantly, the fun factor of seeing your opponent get red-faced as he realizes he can't put his basilisk there.

Problem is, you put the spore mines where the bassy wants to go, then in the bassies turn he moves where he wants to go and the spore mines all explode.

The mines cant ever hurt vehicles, they cant slow vehicles down, and against a pure horde army they dont even deal that much damage. So for 180 points, you get 3 units that can do nothing to hurt the enemy.

I like the idea of them, but like a lot of things in the nid book the execution was very poor. For fun, go for it. As a viable competitive tactic? Look elsewhere.

ive seen spores played once and thats against mech vanilla space marines. XD

Pg. 48 of the Tyranid codex:

"Orbital Bombardment

. . .After they have landed, the Spore Mines in the cluster are then treated as individual spore mines, as described in the Living Bomb rule."

"Living Bomb

. . .Each spore mine model is treated as an individual unit."

So, if you buy a cluster of 6 spores for 60 pts., they deep strike on the board after deployment zones are chosen but before sides deploy. They are placed in valid deep strike formation. Once the game begins, they each move as an individual unit.

DevianID wrote:Problem is, you put the spore mines where the bassy wants to go, then in the bassies turn he moves where he wants to go and the spore mines all explode.

Then the basilisk/basilisks don't fire that turn and the little spores buy me another turn of firing at the basilisks because they couldn't deploy in cover. I think the point's been made, though.

I've not tried them out yet, but my feeling was that if you could save 30 points for one minimum-sized unit of spore mines, that might well be worthwhile -- you still have most of the advantages noted in this thread (admittedly very much reduced as compared to if you spend 180 pts on 18 of them), but if the scenario and/or matchup minimises their effectiveness, you've only used 30 pts.

Mundar wrote:All it really takes is a few tank shocks and the spore mines all go poof.

Or parking next to them. The explode 1" away, I take a s2 hit on my tank. I can live with that.

The concept is really cool, but I'm in the camp that if you are dropping 180pts on spore mines that is one less MC I have to deal with.

Tank shocks won't work, as the tank will pass through "as if it were not there" according to the Tank Shock rules. If you park within 2", though, they WILL detonate at the end of the Movement phase. You will take a strength 4 hit, as Spore Mines have a rule that specifically overrides partial hits on vehicles.

I think 18 is worthless but I have no problem with spending 30 to 60 points and using those 3 fast slots to weaken your opponent's deployment options.

That could be worthwhile,

Broken Loose wrote:

Mundar wrote:All it really takes is a few tank shocks and the spore mines all go poof.

Or parking next to them. The explode 1" away, I take a s2 hit on my tank. I can live with that.

The concept is really cool, but I'm in the camp that if you are dropping 180pts on spore mines that is one less MC I have to deal with.

Tank shocks won't work, as the tank will pass through "as if it were not there" according to the Tank Shock rules. If you park within 2", though, they WILL detonate at the end of the Movement phase. You will take a strength 4 hit, as Spore Mines have a rule that specifically overrides partial hits on vehicles.

Tank shocks do work. You declare how far you're going, finish your move, the mine is right next to your av 11 rhino. and a s4 hit vs. ar11 still does nothing. All it requires is declaring the distance moved to roughly where the mines are, then they are moved out of the way.

Example:
1. I declare I'm going to tank shock your waste of points spore mines.
2. I declare I'm moving X inches (putting me in the midst of said wasted points)
3. You move the mines 1" away from my tank since you cannot be "underneath it"
4. At the end of the movement phase your mines detonate, doing nothing.

Page 68. I'd suggest reading the entire passage, not just the first part.

Also, I found nothing in the Tyranid codex saying they "override partial hits on vehicles". It says it detonates at s4, ap4 using the large blast centered over the spore mine. Again, going back to the rule book, when the hole of a blast weapon is not over a vehicle it takes a hit at half strength rounding up.

Or failing any of the above, I just end my movement phase within 2" of those horrible waste of a fast attack and let them detonate with no effect. Page 60. You are going to say the codex says to resolve hits at s4 and it doesnt say partial hits are s2.. I'm going to say nowhere in any book does it ever mention partial hits, and you resolve that like you do any other blast weapon.

This is how I interpret the spore mine rules: The spore mine detonation does not use the universal rules for a Blast Weapon. It only uses the large blast marker to see who is hit (the Mawlock also works like this, for example). Then any model hit "suffers a S4 ap4 hit". The specific rule that causes some hits to be half S against vehicles can be found under the head "Template and Blast weapons" (brb p 60), a sporemine is neither.

A shot from a Biovore is indeed a Large Blast weapon. So it suffers half S if it cannot place the center over the vehicle.

I agree with your interpretation of the Tank Shock. It's quite easy to set off the mines that way.

if the spore mine fired out of a biovore follows the half strength template for vehicles, why shouldn't the spores that they fired pre-game follow the same ruling? I myself am an avid tyranid player and even i call shenanigans on that one.

As far as taking pre-game spore mines, i'm against it. I've done it once or twice and saw no results whatsoever. a smart opponent will simply place his vehicles, as has been said multiple times in this thread, and pop the spores without them really doing anything at all. If anything, they are over-costed as they take up fast attack slots that could be used for gargoyles to escort a parasite/mortrex, or shrikes that can be sent across the board to contest objectives. The points alone could buy a carnifex with bioplasma, which will cause much more devastation to your opponent almost 100% of the time, both in how he deploys and maneuvers, as well as what happens when (if) mr. stabby-fex reaches his tanks.

that being said, It could be argued that a shot wasted at a spore mine cluster, or a tank moving there just to pop them, could be the bait that you were looking for in the first place to set up a nice outflank or just have an extra turn of running for trygons/fexes. it's a thinking man's game, and this new codex has caused all of us tyranid players to have to re-think our old strategies to fit our new rules.

-tetris

tetrisphreak wrote:

As far as taking pre-game spore mines, i'm against it. I've done it once or twice and saw no results whatsoever. a smart opponent will simply place his vehicles, as has been said multiple times in this thread, and pop the spores without them really doing anything at all.

I think you and Mundar are missing the point. It's not about their effectiveness -in the game- (although, that might be different against non-mech armies), but -before- the game. You can help determine where your enemy sets up. While it may not be worth 180 pts., it certainly -could- be game-changing.

No I see the point. The intention is to dictate deployment. Which I don't think will work all that well anyway. Clump up 6 models as you would deepstrikers, you'll see it takes up almost no space at all. This is also assuming the mines also land where you want.

Dawn of War deployment dictates that no unit may be deployed within 18" of an enemy unit. So choose your sides and DS the spore wherever fits your strategy/objectives and your opponent now has a 36" diameter circle he can't deploy into.

If you didn't roll DoW, but are taking the first turn, place them where you think they have a chance of drifting into infantry during t1.

If you didn't roll DoW and aren't taking first turn, place them center field and nearish one of the short sides. They won't be a big threat anyways, but if he wants to shock them, make him go out of his way or waste some shooting even if it doesn't seem to accomplish anything.

Winning is VERY often a result of deployment and action versus reaction. A mere 30pts for 3 spores that can deny 36" of deployment in DoW, and/or force your opponent into a reactionary stance in t1 is worth it IMO. If they choose to not take the bait and ignore the spores, you get a chance to laugh if they take a good drift into infantry.