Fluff stats?

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**Utopias Astartes**

Out of interest, which races in the tabletop game are actually accurate compared to the fluff. For the ones that are not accurate, what would their stats be? For example, Space Marines. Feel free to post your opinions about any race, I think this could be an interesting discussion.

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

The Guardsmen are damn close to how they should be, at least I'd say. However, Space Marines, HOLY CRAP, don't get me started.

Taken from the Movie Marines Ruleset:

Regular Marine
-WS:5, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:2, I:5, A:3, LD:9, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending

Sergeant
-WS:9, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:4, I:6, A:5, LD:10, SV:3+
-Bolt pistol- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending
-Chainsword

**Utopias Astartes**

That doesn't seem to leave much for captains and chapter masters. How about them?

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

Movie Marines don't have them. Each marine is at least a hundred points, if not more like the sergeant being 200 or something. Their weapons are amazing too. But yes, it leaves little except wonder at what a god of battle a Chapter Master or Captain would be.

**Utopias Astartes**

Cool. What about the other races such as the Tau, Tyranids, etc.?

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

I'd say most of the others are honestly well represented, save for bigger bugs and older commanders and such being higher statted. Space Marines are just put so low to balance the game and make it so buying models is done in tens so they can charge more.

**Utopias Astartes**

That's ashame. That would be cool if we could field fluff types of armies, even if its just a small task force vs. a massive Ork WAAAGGHHHH!!!

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

Can't find the link but there is an unofficial Movie Marines codex with those stats, all playable. It's quite an awesome little book.

**Utopias Astartes**

Do you know what the stats for bigger guns like lascannons or assault cannons would be since the bolters are so much stronger. And are these significantly better than those fielded by guardsmen?

**Shas'O Dorian**

Utopias, Yes they are better than the ones guard get. As stated in the Dark Heresy rule book about in-game purchasable bolters (paraphrased)

These bolters, while immensely powerful, are not of the same standards as those used by the god-like soldiers of the adeptus astartes

**Utopias Astartes**

No, I meant the heavier weapons. Do those stats mean that an astartes bolter is as powerful as an assault cannon? Or is this assault cannon more powerful in the fluff?

**Quintinus**

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:The Guardsmen are damn close to how they should be, at least I'd say. However, Space Marines, HOLY CRAP, don't get me started.

Taken from the Movie Marines Ruleset:

Regular Marine
-WS:5, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:2, I:5, A:3, LD:9, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending

Sergeant
-WS:9, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:4, I:6, A:5, LD:10, SV:3+
-Bolt pistol- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending
-Chainsword

Yeah-these are movie marines. For some reason everyone seems to think that the Movie Marines are how Movie Marines should actually be. They're not like that.

I'd actually say that Imperial Space Marines are fine as they are.

Personally I blame the crappy fluff that has been churned out of the Black Library that's just been a huge marine circle jerk.

**Utopias Astartes**

Also, would chaos space marines be of this caliber too?

**Quintinus**

Utopias Astartes wrote:Also, would chaos space marines be of this caliber too?

Theoretically they'd be better but let's not let this get in the way of the Imperial Space Marine players.

A Plague Marine would be like T7, 3 wounds, with a 3+ save and a 4+ feel no pain save if we go with "Movie Marines".

**Zed**

Fluff-wise, without the support of the God-Emperor of Mankind the Chaos Space Marines are probably a shadow of their former selves... except for the horns and spiky bits. Ahh, spiky bits...

**ZacktheChaosChild**

Zed wrote:Fluff-wise, without the support of the God-Emperor of Mankind the Chaos Space Marines are probably a shadow of their former selves... except for the horns and spiky bits. Ahh, spiky bits...

You obviously have never read any Chaos fluff then. Read Storm of Iron and Dark Apostle, that will properly put into perspective how badass Chaos Marines really are....

**Lupe**

Zed wrote:Fluff-wise, without the support of the God-Emperor of Mankind the Chaos Space Marines are probably a shadow of their former selves... except for the horns and spiky bits. Ahh, spiky bits...

You are aware that the "God"-Emperor, while a powerful psyker, is too busy keeping the Astronomican running (and possibly the Webway 2.0 closed) and otherwise being dead to bestow his support on even the handful of marines (well, million, if you want to get technical about it) loyal to him, right?

If anything, the Chaos Marines have obviously lived a lot longer, and as they're still equipped with more or less functioning brains, they've probably learned some new tricks over the millenia. Then there are the Chaos gods, which have been accumulating power for thens of thousand years, and they've been pretty much feeding on every single eldar or human in the galaxy during that time. Surely they can dispense gifts that amount to somewhat more than the moral support of a single dead human, Emperor or not. I can't imagine Chaos marines would be very excited about Chaos gifts if they weren't actually an upgrade over their already formidable physical capabilities.

**Shas'O Dorian**

#1 reason books can't truly be trusted: They glorify whatever army they are about, USUALLY.

Gaunts Ghosts glorify the guard, though Mr. Abnett seems to be good about not pumping them too much.

Chaos books glorify chaos

SM books, along with everything else GW does packs the love onto SMs.

So while yes some of what is in books is very good and true, keep in mind they tend to pump up whoever they are about.

**vodo40k**

This is how I would rate a "fluff" marine (I think movie marines are a bit OTT)

Marine: Ws4 Bs4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv3+/6+
Sergeant: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A3 Ld9 Sv3+/6+

Bolter Str5 Ap5 Range24" Type Assault 2
Blot Pistol Str5 Ap5 Range 12" Type Pistol

Also Tau should be Bs4

**Miraclefish**

Anyone read the new Soul Hunter book about the Night Lords?

It's fantastic. It feels like a grown up version of 40K.

Most of the Night Lords - and it's hinted that many of the other Legions feel the same - despise daemons and those corrupted by them. They fight because they truly believe that the Emperor betrayed them and was paving the way for his eventual ascention to godhood. Horus failed, the Emperor will probably never be tackled, but the fight must be fought. Evil can never be allowed to succeed...

They are simply Astartes on the other side of the war - mostly free of daemonic intervention and gifts - and very low on resources.

They have neither the recruits, the manpower or the material resources to take on the ever-angrier Imperium - so they resort to hit-and-run attacks, retreating back into the Eye of Terror.

Now, that brings us to another interesting clarification. The Traitor Marines are not 10,000 years old in the conventional sense.

From their point of view, the Heresy took place about 100-200 years ago. Time, of course, doesn't flow as we've come to know in the Sea of Souls.

So they're badly equipped (to the point of salvaging armour and weapons from fallen brothers or Loyalist Astartes they kill) and mostly untainted by Chaos (to the point of detesting and killing Marines who become compromised) but are still furious about the betrayal of the Emperor (which was only a hundred or so years ago to them).

Sounds like a fairly event match to a Loyalist Astares warrior to me...

**Skarboy**

Game stats are "fluff influenced," but mostly game balance. I seriously doubt you could convert any of the races accurately as per their "fluff" to a d6 base and have them remain proportionately accurate to each other. A percentile based system, maybe, but not d6.

**IvanTih**

If marines were made acording to the fluff game would be insanely un-balanced.

**Miraclefish**

IvanTih wrote:If marines were made acording to the fluff game would be insanely un-balanced.

Not if they were priced according to fluff too.

There are 20,000,000 Guardsmen to every Space Marine in the Imperium (Source BRB 5th Editon - Special Edition).

Feel free to bring one movie-stat marine. I'll bet on the twenty million Guardsmen...

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

Miraclefish wrote:
IvanTih wrote:If marines were made acording to the fluff game would be insanely un-balanced.

Not if they were priced according to fluff too.

There are 20,000,000 Guardsmen to every Space Marine in the Imperium (Source BRB 5th Editon - Special Edition).

Feel free to bring one movie-stat marine. I'll bet on the twenty million Guardsmen...

Yes, because they'd EVER throw 20,000,000 Guardsmen at ONE space marine? I highly doubt it. Maybe a squad of ten-twelve going at him. Oh, but in the fluff, either side could win that fight, so I see very fifty-fifty odds here.

**Utopias Astartes**

From what I have gathered here and from what I have gathered from my significantly more knowledgable friends, this is what I think the fluff stats would be. I have included a few other stats for comparison.

Scout: Ws4 Bs4 S5 T5 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
Marine: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv3+
Sergeant: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A3 Ld9 Sv3+

Of course, Chaplains and Librarians would also be Ws6, Bs5, Ld10 and so on. Captains and Chapter Masters would be Ws7. These special characters would also have more attacks and wounds.

Plague Marine: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T6 W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv3+, Feel No Pain
Ogryn: Ws3 Bs3 S4 T4 W3 I2 A3 Ld6 Sv5+

Heavy Bolter Str6 Ap4 Range 36" Type Heavy 3
Boltgun Str5 Ap5 Range 24" Type Rapid Fire
Bolt Pistol Str5 Ap5 Range 12" Type Pistol

Ripper Gun Str4 Ap- Range 12" Type Assault 2

I particularly wanted to compare an Ogryn and a Space Marine. While an Ogryn is much bigger (and therefore has more wounds) than a Space Marine, a Space Marine is stronger, tougher, quicker, and better trained than an Ogryn. However, an Ogryn is particularly savage in close combat and therefore has more attacks. Also, the bolt weapon stats would only apply to Space Marine bolt weapons, not Imperial Guard ones. As far as game balance is concerned, the Marines would still have only one wound but would be a little more expensive. Ogryns could then cost about 25 to 30 points as opposed to 40. I'm not familiar enough with Tau to know if they should be Bs3 or Bs4 but I do know that they wreak havoc with shooting.

**Mr. Burning**

Movie marine stats bring up an interesting point.

Modifiers and buffs in RT and 2nd ed brought up the killing power of Sm the guile of the eldar and so on.

Although basic race stats were broadly similar to todays the use of weaponry and armour was a heck of a lot different.

Take chain swords, fluff wise they are the basic tool of an SM able to carve up armour and flesh with ease. Every book about SM has these super human troops carving up their opponents.

RT and 2nd ed this was reflected by by adding d3 d4 or a couple of handfuls of d6 rolled to augment the basic strength of the weapon. (obviously most of the things in its way would have had some buffs as well). different races would confer different strength levels and buffs to the same chainsword and equivs.

Since 3rd ed chainswords have just been a CC weapon like a club or a sword using the soldiers basic strength.

And like other weapon and equipment stats these have been simplified to make the game accessible and to ensure that as many models as possible can be played with and therefore sold.

That isn't the be all and end all sine the rules have changed everything since 3rd ed but its not an easy mater to just upgrade race and weapons stats using a 5th ed matrix to go on to create fluff armies.

**kravus master of Horus**

CSM have good fluff

**Utopias Astartes**

How does anyone else feel about the stats I have posted?

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

Utopias Astartes wrote:How does anyone else feel about the stats I have posted?

When a single astartes is worth ten Guardsmen in the fluff, those stats are fail. Movie Marines have stats as they should be I'd say.

**Utopias Astartes**

Even though movie marine bolters are the same thing as assault cannons and they are as strong as dreadnoughts?