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Wow, these guys are really trying to put themselves out of business. First the billing debacle (where they billed customers multiple times for one month's play, some saw over two thousand USD worth of charges) and now going after fan sites? I'm afraid that the online gaming community are a little bit less thick skinned about this stuff as we are.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326733

Upsetting your fans + bad global economy = probably not the best idea in the world. I'd rate it slightly lower than sticking a knife into an electrical outlet.

Aramus wrote:Wow, these guys are really trying to put themselves out of business.

Which one? Mythic(which is where the billing problem was, NOT GW) or GW(where this is coming from NOT Mythic)?

Remember, there are two separate companies involved here.

Search function. Use it. This has already been discussed in 40k General.

Kanluwen wrote:Search function. Use it. This has already been discussed in 40k General.

See my signature. You don't have to be all militant. Being helpful/informative (suggesting to use search) doesn't have to come across as talking to a dog that pissed on the floor.

I didn't see this before and I find it troubling. GW is a business however. This could and should have been handling differently.

No, it really couldn't have.

When Warhammer Alliance was a privately operated fan site owned by one guy, that ran ads to maintain the cost of its servers?

Yeah, then it'd be a different story with the lawsuit.

When Curse, Inc(a for-profit company) bought WarhammerAlliance and began making money from it the rules changed.

It'd be like if Chapterhouse bought DakkaDakka, to give a rough example.

I was referring to claim that GW was unable to contact the website... really?

Wow, these guys are really trying to put themselves out of business.

Hopefully, if anything goes out of business it will be the Warhammer Online game. I was a hard core supporter of that game from beta to off and on its first year until I realized it was more or less trash and was never going to get better. Its failing month after month. I just unsubscribed after the event you describe next.

First the billing debacle (where they billed customers multiple times for one month's play, some saw over two thousand USD worth of charges)

Games Workshop is not involved in the billing of Mythic customers for the online game. That was all Mythic's problem and I believe it was handled rather promptly. I didn't stick around to find out.

and now going after fan sites? I'm afraid that the online gaming community are a little bit less thick skinned about this stuff as we are.

Curse.com is not a fansite. It is the parent company of the Warhammer Alliance forum site, and it is a business (ie paying for premium accounts and such). Curse.com being a commercial site that has GW trademark images and add ons for their liscensed property, as well as owning a site that has the words "warhammer" and "alliance" in it, would lead one to presume that Curse.com and GW have some sort of mutual business arrangement. Thats not the case and thats what this whole thing is about.

Upsetting your fans + bad global economy = probably not the best idea in the world. I'd rate it slightly lower than sticking a knife into an electrical outlet.

Mythic has all the blame in upsetting fans, by releasing a half assed MMO that needs to be put out to pasture. The RvR was arguably some of the best out there, but overall the game was deeply flawed and dated from the get go. Any Warhammer video/PC game that comes out after WAR will have to fight an uphill batte to impress fans, since WAR ruined it for a whole lot of people in the MMO world, which outnumbers tabletop gamers by a large margin, I suspect.

Byte wrote:I was referring to claim that GW was unable to contact the website... really?

Pretty much all the "contact" info refers you to PM mods.

That's not how to discuss legal matters, and Curse damn well should know that.

Platuan4th wrote:

Aramus wrote:Wow, these guys are really trying to put themselves out of business.

Which one? Mythic(which is where the billing problem was, NOT GW) or GW(where this is coming from NOT Mythic)?

Remember, there are two separate companies involved here.

Should have been a bit more clear on that one, I was mainly referring to the game

And Kanluwen, I don't see it in here anywhere, and I think it fits under NEWS and Rumors (I don't really read GD) If it doesn't belong here, I'm sure a mod will be along shortly to move/lock it.

Sigh. Does no one ever read my threads? You guys really know how to make a poster feel depressed.

It's not in here because it's neither News nor Rumors, and not really that important.

Company gets sued for making profit off another company's IP illegally.

News at 11!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sidenote:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/292842.page Baron's thread.

Just to prove someone reads his threads.

Kanluwen wrote:
Company gets sued for making profit off another company's IP illegally.

News at 11!

Kanluwen rushes to protect poor, sickly GW from nasty online types with their fancy convoluted 'opinions'... again!!

News at 12!

NELS1031 wrote:

Wow, these guys are really trying to put themselves out of business.

Hopefully, if anything goes out of business it will be the Warhammer Online game. I was a hard core supporter of that game from beta to off and on its first year until I realized it was more or less trash and was never going to get better. Its failing month after month. I just unsubscribed after the event you describe next.

First the billing debacle (where they billed customers multiple times for one month's play, some saw over two thousand USD worth of charges)

Games Workshop is not involved in the billing of Mythic customers for the online game. That was all Mythic's problem and I believe it was handled rather promptly. I didn't stick around to find out.

and now going after fan sites? I'm afraid that the online gaming community are a little bit less thick skinned about this stuff as we are.

Curse.com is not a fansite. It is the parent company of the Warhammer Alliance forum site, and it is a business (ie paying for premium accounts and such). Curse.com being a commercial site that has GW trademark images and add ons for their liscensed property, as well as owning a site that has the words "warhammer" and "alliance" in it, would lead one to presume that Curse.com and GW have some sort of mutual business arrangement. Thats not the case and thats what this whole thing is about.

Upsetting your fans + bad global economy = probably not the best idea in the world. I'd rate it slightly lower than sticking a knife into an electrical outlet.

Mythic has all the blame in upsetting fans, by releasing a half assed MMO that needs to be put out to pasture. The RvR was arguably some of the best out there, but overall the game was deeply flawed and dated from the get go. Any Warhammer video/PC game that comes out after WAR will have to fight an uphill batte to impress fans, since WAR ruined it for a whole lot of people in the MMO world, which outnumbers tabletop gamers by a large margin, I suspect.

As I stated above, I should have been more clear, when I was referencing the online game. To Mythic's credit, they did handle it fairly quickly, although they haven't really done anything to "fix" the problem, or even let anyone know what happened (by fix I mean publicly getting rid of the billing company, offering proof that the customers billing information was no longer with said company, and offering proof on how they will ensure that that never happens again, since this was not the first time it happened)

You've got me on the Curse.com thing. And I'll also give you, running GW's trademarked images is a big nogo. However, GW doesn't own the right to the word Warhammer, or Alliance.

WAR being crappy does affect GW, even if they don't "own" Mythic. If it makes their brand look bad, potential customers will look at their other products, and may not buy them, since the associate the name Warhammer with crap.

Point is, GW needs to really stop suing their fans. I can't think of any company that has ever done something so stupid. I understand that they need to defend their trademarks, and in most cases, a simple email to the site in question "Please remove our trademarked/copyrighted images from your site - explain trademark stuff here" would suffice, and if that did not, I don't have any problem with them sending a C&D afterwards.

Um, actually they do own the right to the trademark of "Warhammer" in reference to "Warhammer Age of Reckoning".

And again:
If it were still a fan owned and operated site?
Then yes, it would be ridiculous.

But it's not, it's a for profit company that is using it.

Kanluwen: I might point out (again) that being 'for profit' does not preclude 'fair use'.

Heh.

But again: It's COMPLETELY different when it becomes a for-profit company that bought a fan site and turns it into a money making enterprise.

Kind of like this?

http://www.uffsite.net/news/380/a-sneak-peak-at-the-ff13-strategy-guide.html

But then again, I guess Square/Enix isn't as big as GW, and can't afford lawyers, to go after these guys, since they are clearly making money (ads) and using their trademarks...

Aramus wrote:Kind of like this?

http://www.uffsite.net/news/380/a-sneak-peak-at-the-ff13-strategy-guide.html

But then again, I guess Square/Enix isn't as big as GW, and can't afford lawyers, to go after these guys, since they are clearly making money (ads) and using their trademarks...

Again:
Is www.uffsite.net owned by a for profit company?

If yes: then Square/Enix could go after them.

If not: then it'd be pointless to go after them, because they won't pay out either way.

Let's clear this up right now:
Warhammer Alliance?
It is not a fan site.

It was from 2005-2009.
When the owner of Warhammer Alliance sold the site to Curse, Inc--it ceased being a fan site.

Regardless of it being a fan site or 'for profit': Fair Use still applies.

If you could sue companies for 'fair use' then Saturday Night Live would have been run off the air long ago due to lack of advertising.

Fair Use really does not apply in this case.

There's no parody or satire, there's no news reporting, etc.

The site is billed as a "Fan Community", not an Unofficial News Service.

"...the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright." - Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 107


An online community qualifies as criticism/commentary. For not reporting 'news' of WAr, the very topmost thing on the site main page is the 'Warhammer Alliance Daily News" which has been there since the get go, as well as conducting dev interviews. They host numerous FAQs and guides, which would count under the broad umbrella of teaching.

I'll also point out that IGN is not being sued and does exactly the same thing. So what makes Curse sue-able and IGN not?

IGN does what?

Curse does not openly state that they run Warhammer Alliance.

Even now, they don't. Warhammer Alliance is "shocked and surprised" that the agreement they made with GW in 2005(when they were a non-profit, fan entity) is being revoked now when they're owned by a for profit company misrepresenting itself as a fan site.

BaronIveagh wrote:"...the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright." - Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 107


An online community qualifies as criticism/commentary. For not reporting 'news' of WAr, the very topmost thing on the site main page is the 'Warhammer Alliance Daily News" which has been there since the get go, as well as conducting dev interviews. They host numerous FAQs and guides, which would count under the broad umbrella of teaching.

I'll also point out that IGN is not being sued and does exactly the same thing. So what makes Curse sue-able and IGN not?

Yep, seems real cut and dry to me.

http://www.ifixit.com/

These guys make money! They SELL things, and have advertisements on their site! Too bad poor Apple can't afford the stellar team of lawyers that GW has, so they could shut down these thieves too. (Because Apple isn't known for suing the pants off of anyone they can, right? )


And, LOOK at these guys http://planetquake.gamespy.com/

Using id's intellectual property and making money off of it! If only id's founder didn't spend all of his money trying to get into space, they could have hired a legal team...

I might point out that Games Workshop never informed them that such agreement was being revoked. Further, I'll point out that what GW did was explicit consent. They did not stipulate at that time that such consent was contingent on the site remaining in the possession of it's original owners, who were running it for profit at that time.

Curse, Inc's logo is plastered all over the site. how do you figure they don't admit to owning it?

IGN has their warhammer site as warhammervault.ign.com Under the allegations that GW makes, this would be construed as implying an alliance between IGN and GW.

BaronIveagh wrote:I might point out that Games Workshop never informed them that such agreement was being revoked. Further, I'll point out that what GW did was explicit consent. They did not stipulate at that time that such consent was contingent on the site remaining in the possession of it's original owners, who were running it for profit at that time.

Curse, Inc's logo is plastered all over the site. how do you figure they don't admit to owning it?

IGN has their warhammer site as warhammervault.ign.com Under the allegations that GW makes, this would be construed as implying an alliance between IGN and GW.

By the by, the agreement was made between GW and the site's former owner.


Once it was sold--the agreement no longer was valid.

Not true. As the direct successors to the property of 'warhammeralliance.com' Curse Inc also gains the benefits and obligations of such unless it was specifically stipulated at the time the agreement was made that it was limited in some manner.

I'm fairly certain they don't when it goes from a non-profit to a profit.

There's no distinction. I've looked it up. Example: a family farm is sold. The farm had received a zoning variance. This variance does not revert if it's bought by a for-profit corporation.

And further, the site would not have qualified as non-profit to begin with, since they were turning a profit on advertising.

Wow. I'm familiar with all the legal poppycock language and the art of property law, but how does this help anyone? You can't tell me there isn't the option of a compromise that would benefit everyone. Has GW forgotten that you make friends by making deals and helping others? Being willing to compromise to get greater market visibility with little to no overhead? GW has the most loyal customer base of just about ANY industry. They're always willing to work with you because they love the product. They are absolutely looking a gift horse in the mouth by snubbing fans.

Told you that game was going to suck.

Now they are just riding the donkey cave backwards into the sunset.