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I am trying to figure out how to do a Harlequin army based around the old citadel journal and I need to add some assault punch, so I thought about Shining Spears since that list used jetbikes.

On the surface they look awful, because they are only good for assault, and they have such low numbers, and such few attacks, it seems like a bad combination.

So, has anyone had any luck with them?

Well, I took SS at several occasions and found that there is one viable configuration:

4 or 5 SS incl. Exarch w/ skilled rider, withdraw
Autarch w/ jetbike, laser lance, mandiblaster

Add a Fortuniseer on jetbike for increased survivability.

Note that the Autarch benefits from the Exarch powers, but not the Farseer.

Not really.

One problem, is that they absolutely depend on the charge - not like orks, who are better if they charge, shining spears really need it, they're absolutely despicable otherwise.
2 points related to this: one, lots of other nasty assault units have a range of 18" (winged MCs, other bikers/cavalry) or even more (terminators in a land raider) so your spears end up playing a guessing game.

Second, they need to wipe out their target, or they will take some expensive casualties over 2 assault phases - and if they do wipe out their target, they will be shot to pieces. Hit and Run doesn't really help them here, they still have to endure 2 rounds of attacks back, while they only get 1 round themselves.

They're far too fragile. As tough as a marine, but 35 pts (plus very expensive exarch upgrades, so the squad averages 40+) is just too vulnerable. This applies to shooting - one turn exposed to enemy fire can wreck the unit - and to combat - whatever you attack, you'd better destroy it and it had better be worth >250 points, or it's not really worth it.

With so few attacks, they're very vulnerable to a single unlucky assault phase - and if they fluff that one round of attacks, congratulations, your hammer assault unit will get chewed up by tactical marines! Because of this (and for assault grenades and a meltagun) lots of people, including me, used an autarch with the unit. This makes them deadlier, not really more resilient, and very, very expensive.

They're not worth it IMO. So many other codexes have assault units that are mobile, scary (even on turns they don't assault) and resilient. Hit&run combined with some sort of charge bonus is a cool idea for a unit. H&R with complete uselessness w/out a charge is a bad idea, especially when you pay through the nose to tie this ability to a 1W model in a small unit.

Their role is 'like' fire dragons. Fire and Forget, and they will deal the right amount of damage when they engage on their own terms.

It's just that spears were priced horribly on GW's part. Other than cost, IMO, there's nothing too wrong with them.

With respect to your slogging nature Blackmoor:
I think they fit well into the list of "Fragile, but with Scalpels" theme.

The issue is... Harlies have Veil of Tears...where as the Jetbikes can only rely on their speed and cover saves...which is not a great idea. In the case they are used as counter attack, it's alot of points...but can serve to clean up squads the harlies slam into beforehand, though I don't know, for the cost of the SS, wouldn't you rather have more troopers? Like Guardian Jetbikes...cause harlies are pretty points intensive as well.

Well, SS are too expensive to be expendable.
A unit of FD is just 96 pts, while SS cost more than 200 pts.
I'd use them to target isolated units, like Devastators or Havocs deployed in the backfield.

The problem is that they are designed and costed to take on elite infantry units but can't actually do it. Sure they are going to make a decent dent (but low attacks mean you won't wipe them out most of the time) in a Tactical Squad or similar IF they get the charge (and get close enough to charge without being shot down in the first place), but then they get stuck in combat or left in the open and destroyed. Realistically they have to be going after more expensive units to get their points back but can't really take on other combat units and win (they are going to totally bounce of Terminators etc).

Harlies are pretty much the only competitively viable Eldar assault unit imo (and probably the JetCouncil I guess). All the other assault units are too fragile to run on foot and/or are trying to assault out of a closed top transport with the exit at the rear.

If you want to use Jetbikes then large units of standard Jetbikes could be viable, load up on Shuriken Cannons and stick a Fortune Seer (maybe Guide as well) in there and they can work well. Keep them screened with something or run Conceal on the Warlock and they are a really pain to deal with.

Well, SS can eventually take on a smaller elite unit.
I'd hesitate to charge a full Tactical unit since the enemy squad can move up to 6'' to bring its members into contact (btb or at least 2'').
This means that the SS will face 10 Marines and some will hit back - this was different in the 4th ed.
In particular, the power-fist wielding Sergeant can put the SS into a world of hurt.

SS have a few problems, as has been pointed out. They are expensive but they are also too small. Five SS just dont have enough punch and are too fragile; adding in an autarch helps a lot but adds to the cost substantially as well as using up an hq slot. Adding in a farseer just compounds the cost.

In some ways they can be used a a jetcouncil-lite, but they are much more fragile.

They can be a lot of fun in certain case. A heavy jetbike army gives them a good home, and they can be very good in nonstandard games like apoc.


In standard games their points can always be better spent elsewhere


Sliggoth

Well, in the 5th ed, I think Eldar should be played as a mobile force able to outmaneuver the enemy and concentrating on shooting.
The Eldar cc units are not good (exception: Seer Council) enough when compared with cc units of other armies.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I took SS at several occasions and found that there is one viable configuration:

4 or 5 SS incl. Exarch w/ skilled rider, withdraw
Autarch w/ jetbike, laser lance, mandiblaster

I use this unit all the time. That's not really saying much, because I only use one list, but hey - I've probably played 30+ games with the 4 Spears + Exarch + Autarch unit.

It's a good unit. It can absolutely rock enemy infantry, and is brutal against marines and monstrous creatures. Usually it can kill 8-10 Marines on the charge. However, you have to be careful with it. Here are some tips:

1) Stay near other units. These guys are good for tag teaming the enemy and crushing the enemy in one turn. Spears + Harlies or Banshees = dead bad guys that don't get to strike back. Spears on their own can get bogged down and actually take attacks back, which you don't want.

2) Stay away. Hang behind your other units, out on the flanks, behind terrain, whatever. If the enemy shoots them they will die. This isn't awful because the Exarch and Autarch do all the real work, so you just need to keep those two alive, but the more the merrier.

3) Stay out of terrain. You can hang out into terrain all you like (b/c of Skilled Rider) but you don't have grenades, other than the autarch, so be very careful about charing into terrain. A fortuned unit can usually risk taking a few hits, but err on the side of caution.

They are a very good anti tank unit.

3 with an Exarch with skilled rider and a star lance means they will destroy most any vehicle, baring rear armor 14, reliably on the charge.

I am a fan of Shining Spears even though I don't play eldar. They greatly benefit from including an Autarch with a laser lance. I think people here are generally missing how well Hit & Run can work for this unit. The Star Lance alone is well worth the points. Shining Spears should be able to pick their assaults.

Their only drawback is they are a small unit & if they break they'll fallback 3d6" which means there is a good chance they'll hit a table edge.

G

Units are just too small--not enough shock power.

Plus the fact that you can't pull that amazing assault, win, consolidate-assault, win, etc. nonsense anymore makes them real scared of basically anything with a gun. A decent round of shooting by a few guardsmen will take them out nine times out of ten, so unless they can just make one assault after another, they're pretty much, as has been noted above, a fire-and-forget weapon.

Autarchs are actually quite disappointing, as they are with many other load-outs. 130 points standard, for an HQ that will drop 5 attacks, then get face-palmed by a PK/PF.

At 300+ points, I want a unit that will do more than cautiously wait to kneecap a squad, only to lose the hardest hitting part of the squad first. There isn't anything that a JB Autarch/S. spear squad is good against, that in itself, can't counter your entire squad after taking a few spears to the gut. One PK can demolish a WL, and you can guarantee more than two will be focused on your Autarch, if at all possible.

If the Autarch had access to a S8 lance (and a S4 PW... ahem), there would be no question about it's viability. After all, Eldar are fragile in general, especially when they are running around with Ini 5/6, S6/8 PWs.

Needs more dakka... they just don't hit hard enough to make them very useful. Grenades might be asking for a bit much, but they most definitely need to be cheaper as there is no unit to completely fill their role. In a large game (2500+ points), you can actually make use of them with the right amount of skill... which means you need to be a very experienced player, in order to take full advantage of their very narrow field of efficiency.

They would be good at 30 points, and amazing at 25 points. An extra attack could, maybe, make them worth their current point cost. Ultimately, being capped at five models doesn't make for a safe place to stick a fully rigged JB Autarch.

Reecius wrote:They are a very good anti tank unit.

3 with an Exarch with skilled rider and a star lance means they will destroy most any vehicle, baring rear armor 14, reliably on the charge.

I think Reecius makes a really good point here that I hadn't thought of before. This unit is comparably priced (if a little cheaper) than Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent, and may be able to stay in the fight a little longer after destroying their "prey" unlike the dragons.

Wrexasaur wrote:Autarchs are actually quite disappointing, as they are with many other load-outs. 130 points standard, for an HQ that will drop 5 attacks, then get face-palmed by a PK/PF.

The Toledo crew used a jetbike autarch fully loaded to pretty good effect in the 2010 Adepticon Team Tourney if I remember correctly.

I think Reecius makes a really good point here that I hadn't thought of before. This unit is comparably priced (if a little cheaper) than Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent, and may be able to stay in the fight a little longer after destroying their "prey" unlike the dragons.

However, even if the Fire Dragons die after popping a tank the Serpent is still useful for shooting, ramming, tank shocking, and contesting.

SHining Stars take skill to use effectively.

G

Actually, they are significantly cheaper than Dragons in a Serpent.

3 Spears with an exarch, skilled rider and star lance is 142 points.

You guys know, I am sure, that they lances are lance weapons, meaning they shoot then charge. When they shoot they can hurt any vehicle they fire at, the star lance is strength 8, essentially a BS5 bright lance. If they destroy a trasnport with their shooting, they may then charge the unit that was inside.

If they don't destroy it with shooting, they charge, hitting usually rear armor 10 with 4 strength 6 and 3 strength 8 attacks. That means most any vehicle is toast.

Compare that to Dragons in a serpent.

Dragons x 5 = 80pts
Bare bones serpent with stones = 110
Total= 190 which is 50 points more

it is also 1 KP vs 2

There are ups and downs to both, but they don't compete for a slot so you can take both.

Spears are great tank hunters, look at them in that role first, then look to have the charge dedicated shooting units like Long Fangs and such.

Take three units of them, turbo boost turn one, and they are in position to strike anywhere in the opponents deployment zone turn 2, very effective units in that role.

Silver Spears are a ballsy unit.

G

I am not seeing the comparison between SS and FD.

FD are infantry that can take a tank, and they wield standard melta-guns. They don't need to assault to be useful, and they sure as hell don't have to deal with hitting on a 6+. Besides the fact that they can demolish a LR regularly.

These are two entirely different units, that do not fill the same role in any way. Spears have to cope with small arms fire, but are permanently buffed by their transport. Fire dragons use a tank, which does not act as a permanent buff, but as a unit in and of itself. Fire dragons cannot damage heavy infantry in combat, but can go for a second round against a LR in assault. SS rely completely on their ability to get into assault, in order to perform well against tanks.

Completely different units, very little in the way of similiarities. FD are AT all day, every day; SS are AI all day, every day. SS can try their hand at taking out transports, but it does not suit their strengths to do so. My main issue with SS, is their performance, assaulting through cover. S6 PW at Ini 1, are absolute garbage most of the time. If my SS take wounds first, they did not do their job. I want to hit first, because I will not make it out of the fight if I don't.

SS are not in any way shape or from anti infantry. If you send them hunting orks and gants or even blobbed IG they will die horribly. They kill heavy infantry in small groups, monstrous creatures and tanks.

I won't argue that they are superior to FD's in anti tank because they aren't, however, Eldar struggle to take down lots of tanks. A 142 point unit that is multi purpose and very good at destroying tanks is a nice addition to the Eldar repertoire.

They have an 18" range, same as FD but are more maneuverable.

Do the math or try them out yourself sometime. Go tank hunting with them and see for yourself how they perform. Especially against armies like IG and such whose tanks tend not to move much, they obliterate them.

And they shoot tanks well too, don't forget that. They have 2 strength 6 lance shots at BS 4 and 1 strength 8 lance shot at BS 5. That is good odds to damage or destroy transport tanks with shooting, especially on side armor which they are good at getting due to their speed.

If you are sending them against light infantry you are wasting them. Try tank hunting with them and you may be pleasantly surprised. Don't think of them strictly as an assault unit because quite frankly they suck in that role. Look at them as a guided tank hunting missile that can also assault reasonably well when needed, especially against low In monstrous creatures with no invul save, like TMC'.

Reecius wrote:SS are not in any way shape or from anti infantry. If you send them hunting orks and gants or even blobbed IG they will die horribly. They kill heavy infantry in small groups, monstrous creatures and tanks.

My bad, only heavy infantry. Moving along, though.

I won't argue that they are superior to FD's in anti tank because they aren't, however, Eldar struggle to take down lots of tanks. A 142 point unit that is multi purpose and very good at destroying tanks is a nice addition to the Eldar repertoire.

Eldar struggle to take down tanks, but FD don't. It is their role, they shoot tanks at close range, and force consistent damage into an opponents force.

I have yet to see anyone actually make any use of a minimal squad of SS. You could explain what you mean by 142 points, as I can't see a way that it would make sense to take a squad of 3 SS, with Exarch for extra point wastedness. I am entirely willing to accept your tactics, as long as they are simple and effective. If I need to go through a checklist, every time I use a squad of SS, they are clearly inferior units, at least in terms of cost effectiveness.

They have an 18" range, same as FD but are more maneuverable.

Both can move 2 ft., both receive a cover save for it. 3+ for SS, 4+ for the tank. Both units are weak against entirely different weaponry, and are entirely different units altogether. The only clear advantage between the two, is that a tank basically ignores small arms fire, and JB don't take much damage per point from AT firepower.

If both units were comparable in their damage potential vs. tanks, there would be a clear comparison. As FD are much, much better against AV in general, there really is no comparison.

Do the math or try them out yourself sometime. Go tank hunting with them and see for yourself how they perform. Especially against armies like IG and such whose tanks tend not to move much, they obliterate them.

2 attacks each in assault... for 35 points. Look at other codices for a while, and take some time to understand why they are underpowered. A squad of 10 at 35 points a piece, and the ability to take a S8 weapon on a JB Autarch, would change their viability, many times over.

And they shoot tanks well too, don't forget that. They have 2 strength 6 lance shots at BS 4 and 1 strength 8 lance shot at BS 5. That is good odds to damage or destroy transport tanks with shooting, especially on side armor which they are good at getting due to their speed.

I have had this conversation many times before, and the fact remains, that lance shots, are little more than party favors for the SS squad. Good luck getting rear armor shots, it just works in the favor of tanks, not SS lances.

If you are sending them against light infantry you are wasting them. Try tank hunting with them and you may be pleasantly surprised. Don't think of them strictly as an assault unit because quite frankly they suck in that role. Look at them as a guided tank hunting missile that can also assault reasonably well when needed, especially against low In monstrous creatures with no invul save, like TMC'.

Why will you be pleasantly surprised? The math behind this disagrees with your premise.

Lance shots are junk, you need to get them into combat to make use of them, where the SS suffer from hitting on 6+ much of the time. Transport hunters... right...

Ini 5/6, S6/8, the math is clear. They hit first against many heavy infantry units, take advantage of that. If you want to waste them hunting down transports, that's fine, just remember what it takes to roll for a popped transport, meaning your ability to assault the units inside the transport. If you can't get into assault, and end up firing slingshots at tanks, that squad of SS was a complete waste of points. 196 points for a unit that can drop 6 shots onto any armor, as long as they are in range, with the capability to crack a LR in two; alternatively a 3 model squad, that relies on party crackers to open a transport... for the low, low price, of only 142 points... or something. 3 S6 shots, in no way compares to 6 S8 melta shots, with the benefit of having mobile cover.

I'm sorry but how on Earth can you say Lance shots are junk!? That is a ludicrous and silly statement. You're telling me that 2 shots hitting on 2s and glancing on 6s or sometime better, and one shot hitting on 2s and glancing on 4s or sometimes better isn't good?

Dark Eldar pay 105 points for what is an underpriced set of flying Dark Lances (Ravager), so 145 points for 3 bikes with better BS, that can ALSO assault . . . Nice =p

Show me how bad the maths is on the SS and maybe I will start to listen to your statements. But seriously, that amount of lances is pure win to me. There's really no 2 ways about it.

Lances are in no way junk, and are much better than a Lascannon in a variety of situation, and are generally cheaper . . . OK yeah Fire Dragons are better than Shining Spears (How many different names in theis thread? =p), but Fire Dragons are wholly based on shooting Vehicles and Heavy Infantry, whereas Shining Spears are based on Shooting AND Assaulting Vehicles and Heavy Infantry. You just have to be sensible, tactical, and logical about this game . . . or is that too complicated? Shall I just go get the auto-win button? =p

Oshova

Alrighty bro, I am not even going to bother to refute all your points because it is a waste of time.

If you don't think they make a good anti tank unit, fine, you are free to disagree. I KNOW they do because I have used them plenty of times in that role.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And that was at Wrexasaur, not you Oshova.

I would be very shocked if it was at me . . . seeing as I was agreeing with you =p

Oshova

Yeah, no kidding! You posted while I was writing my response so I didn't see yours.

@Wrexasaur
I didn't mean to sound condescending either bro, I just lose my patience with internet debates super fast these days. They degenerate into a contest of will as opposed to a back and forth discussion. You a free to hold what ever opinion you choose.

I think Reecius is on the right path here. A small unit of SS spears with a Star Lance will be able to take on most dedicated shooting units (think Long Fang Packs or Dev squads that DONT normally get PW/PF protection) as well as reliably kill vehicles or wounded MCs. One of the locals has moderate success running the very unit Reecius described---and the reason its moderate is that after experiencing the pain of it once, most veterans don't let them slide into position twice.

One problem I find is you can waste a lot of other stuff trying to protect your one or 2 shot weapon of Shining Spears. Really you should be using cover, or hiding behind tanks and stuff. Then just hop over the top 12" and blast away with a massive grin on your face. If the enemy can't shoot the Spears, then you're free to pop out and blow up whatever is in range =]

Just don't waste too much trying to cover them =p

Oshova

By the way, Reecius sold me....I'm doing Shining Spears. DD2 should do eldar for 2011.

=D YEAH! Go lance stuff . . . it's very satisfying blowing massive holes right through tanks =D

Oshova