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What do you guys think are the best weapons to carry on a razorback?

Thanks

More of a TACTICS question than a RULES one, so...

Off it goes!

I've tried all except the flamer, and I personally like the las/plasma best. But you have to approach it thinking that you'll only be shooting one weapon or the other--almost never both at the same time. So mostly in the early game you shoot the lascannon at light vehicles and/or big creatures (not having the reroll doesn't make that much difference at BS4), then later in the game when things close in, you rapid-fire them with plasma. Also you get an extra "hit point" because of the second weapon.

My least favorite is the assault cannon, because of the short range. The assault cannon razor often does pretty much nothing for the first couple of turns.

My favorite is the assault cannon razorback. First turn you just need to zoom forward 12" and pop smoke if your opponent deployed more than 30" away. After that the range isn't an issue. You do, however, have to make sure your list has enough fire support when using them because they are more of a midrange weapon - you'll still want longrange support.

I would stick with the TLHB's just cause it's stock and the cheapest.
The Flamer option is called "GW thinks that 6" moving flamer templates work consistantly?". <---If you want flamers on transports I suggest Blood Angels Razors.

I would say the cheapo-HB version is the best from a cost/performance ratio. I've seen a number of attempts to run a razorback spam list, and it honestly falls flat while feeling like a half-assed attempt at emulating IG chimera walls.

Blood Angels are a bit of an exception, since their fast vehicles can utilize upgrades like las/plas move effectively, they can take 5-man squads with melta/pistol, and giving up the jump-packs helps offset the cost of the weapon.

I personally have had great success using the TLLC loadout, just a great little armor sniper that people can tend to overlook, it does help that my razorback is unusually durable (hence its name indomitable will lol)

Going to have to disagree with Terminus--I've had great success with mechanized lists that use 3-5 razorbacks. They're different from chimera spam in that you're not so vulnerable from the sides, the guys inside the transport are marines, and you can actually take weapons that hurt things at 48" (unless you do assault cannons).

I most often see razorbacks fail when the player only takes 1 or 2, or spams assault cannon razors that force you to roll into melta range in order to shoot.

The range and reliability of Twin-Linked Lascannons are just so useful.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Going to have to disagree with Terminus--I've had great success with mechanized lists that use 3-5 razorbacks. They're different from chimera spam in that you're not so vulnerable from the sides, the guys inside the transport are marines, and you can actually take weapons that hurt things at 48" (unless you do assault cannons).

I most often see razorbacks fail when the player only takes 1 or 2, or spams assault cannon razors that force you to roll into melta range in order to shoot.

Assault cannon razorbacks do not require you to roll into melta range. 24" is multimelta range, and it does not get melta since you are not in 12". Mobile meltaguns in chimeras/rhinos have a ~26 inch range total (bikes/jump packs have less), and again ~ 20 of that is the actual melta range.

So really you are getting into range of an ML with AP1. Better than a ML for sure, but its not melta range.

edit: I guess the one thing you are going to get in range of is a speeder packing a multimelta, but then your assault cannon will make short work of those targets.

Dracos wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Going to have to disagree with Terminus--I've had great success with mechanized lists that use 3-5 razorbacks. They're different from chimera spam in that you're not so vulnerable from the sides, the guys inside the transport are marines, and you can actually take weapons that hurt things at 48" (unless you do assault cannons).

I most often see razorbacks fail when the player only takes 1 or 2, or spams assault cannon razors that force you to roll into melta range in order to shoot.

Assault cannon razorbacks do not require you to roll into melta range. 24" is multimelta range, and it does not get melta since you are not in 12". Mobile meltaguns in chimeras/rhinos have a ~26 inch range total (bikes/jump packs have less), and again ~ 20 of that is the actual melta range.

So really you are getting into range of an ML with AP1. Better than a ML for sure, but its not melta range.

edit: I guess the one thing you are going to get in range of is a speeder packing a multimelta, but then your assault cannon will make short work of those targets.

You're forgetting fusion blasters & melta cannons, and probably some others. I use the word "melta" to mean all these weapons--the ones with str8, AP1 and the "melta" rule.

Thing about melta is you don't need to be in half range to hurt a razorback. A 3 to glance and 4 to pen, with anything but a 1 on the pen at least crippling the vehicle (because an immobilized razor can't close the distance to get shots with its short-ranged weapon) is plenty good. You say ML with AP1 like that's a bad thing, but it's deadly to razorbacks. There are many more things in the game that can hurt a razorback within 24" than can hurt a razorback from 31"+.

The speeder actually gets the drop on you in the scenario you've mentioned. Because it moves faster and has a 24" range, it can always jockey to get the first shot off in a shootout with a razorback. Or it can just maneuver to avoid the assault cannon (the AC razor can never catch it) and take on better targets. A speeder that starts 48" from a lascannon razor is going to take at least one shot before it can close to range.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Going to have to disagree with Terminus--I've had great success with mechanized lists that use 3-5 razorbacks. They're different from chimera spam in that you're not so vulnerable from the sides, the guys inside the transport are marines, and you can actually take weapons that hurt things at 48" (unless you do assault cannons).

I most often see razorbacks fail when the player only takes 1 or 2, or spams assault cannon razors that force you to roll into melta range in order to shoot.

How dare you! One hundred lashes, castration and life-long interment for you!

On a serious note, 3-5 may well work, the only instances of razor-spam I've faced are 7-8 razors missed with a mix of assault cannons and LC/PG. Although the side armor note is kind of irrelevant IMO, because autocannons/vendettas rip through AV11 with no problem. I remember the last time I played against such a list at 2500 points. Along with a multi-charge from veterans I dropped off from a scouting valkyrie, I had reduced 6 razorbacks and a Land Raider to smoking ruins in one turn. My opponent forfeited on the spot.

You mean you are going to deliver him to the Skorne Paingivers and turn him into the Flavius equivalent of an Agonizer .
___________________

I call you opponent a weakling, NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER!!
Though, to add, I've done the same thing, but it involved a maxed out Seer Council vs. Chimera Wall/Spam. Lulz followed at the lightshow afterwards.

Terminus wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Going to have to disagree with Terminus--I've had great success with mechanized lists that use 3-5 razorbacks. They're different from chimera spam in that you're not so vulnerable from the sides, the guys inside the transport are marines, and you can actually take weapons that hurt things at 48" (unless you do assault cannons).

I most often see razorbacks fail when the player only takes 1 or 2, or spams assault cannon razors that force you to roll into melta range in order to shoot.

How dare you! One hundred lashes, castration and life-long interment for you!

On a serious note, 3-5 may well work, the only instances of razor-spam I've faced are 7-8 razors missed with a mix of assault cannons and LC/PG. Although the side armor note is kind of irrelevant IMO, because autocannons/vendettas rip through AV11 with no problem. I remember the last time I played against such a list at 2500 points. Along with a multi-charge from veterans I dropped off from a scouting valkyrie, I had reduced 6 razorbacks and a Land Raider to smoking ruins in one turn. My opponent forfeited on the spot.

Good work, and hopefully your opponent learned lesson one in the "how to play mech marines" playbook. Don't deploy anything when you're going second against an army with valks.

One of the major advantages of a razorback army is that starting everything in reserve is often actually an advantage, since everything enters & shoots across the board on the turn it arrives (unless you blow your advantage by taking assault cannon razors that have to move for a turn before they can start shooting).

Yes, and then he will spend the rest of his days hauling the Dominar's fat ass around.

How does the quote go?

"Victory goes not to the side with the largest guns, but if we rest in front of them we are lost."

/knowing is half the battle.

Thank you Nurglitch for the public service announcement.
But I would like more red and blue lasers beforehand.

Have to agree with Flavius. My Space Wolves loves them some razorbacks. TL LCs or Las/Plas is a great transport for 6 man missile longfang squads. Also, I grab one for my disappearing WG pack leaders squad. Having 3-4 more TL or single LCs at 1500 is very nice and can take pressure off rhinos. Valkyrie squads aren't very scary - roll on, fire LCs at the Valks. Profit.

I like the flexibility against MEQs/TEQs that the plasma gives, and the fact that the vehicle isnt gimped by 1 weapon destroyed is a bonus. TL LCs hit almost 90% of the time (compared to the regular 67%) , which is pretty hawt.

ACs are good midrange support, and are actually statistically better at popping AV 14 than LCs (strangely) *if* they are in range. ACs work very well for BAs thanks to the Fast rule.

HBs and Flamers are a little meh. HBs have a pretty low RoF for an anti-horde weapon and HFs have serious range issues. But they are cheap.

What about running at least as a BA player either a libby or libby dread with the Shield of Sanguines?

Acardia wrote:What about running at least as a BA player either a libby or libby dread with the Shield of Sanguines?

Irrelevent. This is a Razorback thread.

I run two tllc razors with half a tac in them as a blood angels player. Razorbacks are the centaurs (ig vehical I red in Redemption corps. Fire support vehicals with troop transport capabilitys) of the space marine. Keep that in mind. And always add a stormbolter or something onto the vehical. Lets you fire on more than one thing, and leave with an option during thouse pesky weapon destroyed results.

I was thinking about running LC/PG just because it gives you 2 guns to work with. And then run SB on the sides

I just heard a rumor that an 11 razorback list (space wolves) took second place in the LA 'ard Boyz. That's pretty good, considering the word is that the player had never played the list before.

All the razors were Stronos (LC/TLPG) turrets.

I normally use the TLLC preds, but the las/plas pred seems good too. Does help survive that wep destroyed result.

Lascannon/Twin-Linked Plasma gun is the way to go. Helps pop transports at range and is very good against heavy infantry up close. Also gives you the chance to pop heavy armor from a distance. For the same points as virtually every other upgrade, you get a very balanced weapons load out that is good in virtually every tactical situation. My current list is build around a core of four tactical squads in Razorbacks supported by Attack Bikes, Landspeeders, and heavier tanks and it has been working very well for me.

Yeah, that loadout seems pretty versatile. I am def gonna get mine put together as such.

Depends on the list.

I personally, use assault cannons on my offensive oriented lists, and TL LCs on my gunlines.

Flavius Infernus wrote:You're forgetting fusion blasters & melta cannons, and probably some others. I use the word "melta" to mean all these weapons--the ones with str8, AP1 and the "melta" rule.

Thing about melta is you don't need to be in half range to hurt a razorback. A 3 to glance and 4 to pen, with anything but a 1 on the pen at least crippling the vehicle (because an immobilized razor can't close the distance to get shots with its short-ranged weapon) is plenty good. You say ML with AP1 like that's a bad thing, but it's deadly to razorbacks. There are many more things in the game that can hurt a razorback within 24" than can hurt a razorback from 31"+.

The speeder actually gets the drop on you in the scenario you've mentioned. Because it moves faster and has a 24" range, it can always jockey to get the first shot off in a shootout with a razorback. Or it can just maneuver to avoid the assault cannon (the AC razor can never catch it) and take on better targets. A speeder that starts 48" from a lascannon razor is going to take at least one shot before it can close to range.

Melta range means you get to use the melta rule. I didn't say that an AP1 ML is a bad weapon, I'm just showing that you don't get your melta shot. Without the melta you are not getting the high probability of a kill. The shots from an Assault cannon are more likely to result in a kill when you are not in the melta range (read: range in which the melta rule is used).

Yes a speeder can get the drop on almost anything, which is why I run them in addition to assbacks. I'm not advocating running only assault cannon razorbacks. To discount them entirely, however, is a mistake. They are very good in a mobile gun line built to take the center of the board. As I said originally, you need to have them properly supported (as does any other unit).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Depends on the list.

I personally, use assault cannons on my offensive oriented lists, and TL LCs on my gunlines.

This is the best shot response. I run assault cannon razorbacks because I run a rather offensively oriented list. If I was going pure gunline, it would be TL LCs or maybe LC/PG.

I run 4 Las/plas razors in my list and while i some times curse them when the lascannon wiffs shooting a some target on the other side of the board it warms my heart when termintors or nobs get in null zone range and just melt vs all that ap2.

^ HAHA

Dracos wrote:
Melta range means you get to use the melta rule. I didn't say that an AP1 ML is a bad weapon, I'm just showing that you don't get your melta shot. Without the melta you are not getting the high probability of a kill. The shots from an Assault cannon are more likely to result in a kill when you are not in the melta range (read: range in which the melta rule is used).

Well if you're going to reserve the word "melta" to only mean shots at half range, then I need another word to describe what I'm talking about since I'm talking about shots at any range the melta weapon can reach. Let's call it "zorgadiddle" for the purposes of that discussion and define it as "any shot from a weapon with the melta rule out to its maximum range."

I agree that an assault cannon is marginally more effective than a zorgadiddle or lascannon shot at damaging vehicles. But the difference vs. AR11-12 (where most transports are) are very small, and increasingly small against AR13-14. So I don't think that I can agree that the probability of a kill is "high" for an assault cannon while it is "not high" for a weapon that is only slightly less effective. Doing the numbers is beyond my math skills, because of the way that AP1 can kill on a glance, but my feeling from gameplay is that a zorgadiddle is comparable to a lascannon in its ability to kill things up through about AR12 without the half-range bonus.

Plus, if you factor in the AP1, a zorgadiddle has a 5/6 chance of stopping any vehicle it penetrates (vital for slowing transports), is capable of destroying a target on a glancing hit, and kills open-topped vehicles on a 3+. Half range is just frosting on the cake.