Tac squad in rhino isn't a good idea?

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**Captain Solon**

Well, I know, before you ask that it's a massive meatshield for the squad.

I just really don't see USING the rhino. If I move even six inches, I can't shoot my heavy weapon.

So, my tactica I think about then is leaving them in the rhino, firing just the plasma cannon and rifle as much as is possible, until I'm binded out of the tank.

Is this an effective strategy?

As I see it, I invest 35 points insurance for a 47 point combo [2 marines, plasma rifle and cannon = 16+16+5+10]

is it worth it?

**DarkHound**

No. If the Rhino gets shaken or stunned then they can't shoot. The point of the Rhino is to garuntee a 12" move and protection from small arms fire. Try moving a Rhino 12", turn it sideways, dump the squad out and have them rapid fire. You turn your 12" rapid fire range into 26 by taking a Rhino.

The logic on how many points you're investing is flawed, just like people who think BA Razorback spam is viable. If you sit there and only fire 47 points of weapons, you still have 138 points of Marines you aren't using. Is 220 points worth paying if you're only going to fire their special weapons out of the Rhino?

**notabot187**

Getting out of a rhino in the 40k world is an invitation to death. No really. Your guys will die, especially since you are getting out in rapid fire range of the enemy. Rapid fire bolters only work against things like Geqs out in the open. Against anything else, or competent opponents, they won't do anything other than maybe finish off a remnant squad.

The tactic for rhinos in 5th edition is to drive them to midfield (preferably near an objective) and then smoke first turn. After that use them as midfield firebase bunkers. If they get shaken and stunned, oh well, resist the temptation to get out. Their job is to give some light fire support, and to score. Sure, they have weapons and stats to potentially handle most things, but they are still not meant to be the main killing unit of your army. Thats what all the other FOC spots are for.

**Grey Templar**

Rhino's are not for sitting back and popping heavy weapons out the hatch.

you also don't appear to be splitting your Tac squads. that might be why you don't know how to use rhinos or Razorbacks.

i use my rhinos in one of two different ways.

1) the rhino acts as mobile cover to a combat squad with a heavy weapon. the squad is NOT inside the rhino, but behind it with only the lascannon/plasma cannon/missile launcher exposed. this prevents them from getting shut down by the rhino getting stunned. i do this same thing with Razorbacks armed with HBs or Lascannons.

2) The Rhino, or razorback with assaultcannon/Heavy bolter, transports a combat squad with a special weapon into rapid fire range. the sergeant usually has a combi-weapon to double the squads special weapon fire for 1 round. 6 bolt rounds and 2 special weapon shots can mess up a target. 2 flamers will net 4 dead orks if you get 4 hits per flamer. 2 meltas will hit with 1 for most likely 1 dead tank. 4 plasma shots should kill 2 MEQs or do damage to liht vehicles.

by combat squadding you play the points denial game and can apply the right weapon at the right place at the right time.

you may be tempted to keep your squads at 10 strong, but that makes them a larger target that can still be taken out farily easily and won't ever get the most out of its weapons. 5 marines isn't much easier to kill then 10, but 5 marines are worth far less then 10.

**Tri**

Point of all transports is to get a unit from A to B. RazorBacks and LandRaiders have heavy weapons so many people get confused; all the gun does is give them the ability to hurt the enemy before you arrive (and after of course).

There are times when you can fudge them into a shooty roll. Take a razor back for a devastator squad, Now you have an extra heavy weapon and possibly a coversave for the squad. This also only works if you have multiple higher value targets to be shot, a razor back doesn't live long vs most anti tank weapons.

**DarkHound**

notabot187 wrote:Rapid fire bolters only work against things like Geqs out in the open. Against anything else, or competent opponents, they won't do anything other than maybe finish off a remnant squad.

Give that a positive connotaion and stick that on the end of my post and you'll complete my thought.

There is so little in this game that can simply sweep away a Tactical Squad, especially if they've got cover. Spending a couple Tactical Squads to finish off a unit is worth it, even if it means losing several Marines in return. This isn't really a discussion of Tactical Marines though, so let me elaborate on the Rhino.

You don't use the Rhino directly to kill the enemy, and if that's what you expect from it then you're missing the point. They are a tool. They increase how far you can move, and protect you from small arms. They increase the distance you can strike, and act as a shield against ordnance while you do it. You can tank shock the enemy so that your free flamers are extremely effective. All the things it lets you do requires that you use the Marines inside them, so by sitting back and only shooting the special weapons not only do you waste the Rhino, you waste the rest of the Marines in the squad.

**willydstyle**

IMO one of the best uses of a tactical squad is to have 10 in a rhino with a mult-melta and either a melta gun or flamer. On your first turn, you drive the rhino 12" straight at the big, bad tanks, and pop smoke. If you have enough bigger threats in your list, the tactical squad will likely be ignored, due to your opponent's lower chance of damaging the rhino. Plus, even if it does get wrecked, your marines are likely standing outside of the rhino with little damage, and can still use their heavy weapon next turn.

The turn after moving, your have a "rhino bunker" and the multi-melta creates a nice "no drive" zone where any vehicle comes into that area at their own risk.

**AbaddonFidelis**

Solon
its one of many potential uses for a rhino.... It sounds like you're pursuing a gunline strategy... My advice is to not go down that road. Marines just aren't very good at it. But as with everything else in this game try it and see what happens since experience is the best way to learn.
AF

Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also sounds like you're looking at the squad heavy weapon as it's number 1 asset.... Which I guess it is. Before loading up on tacticals though think about how many points you're paying, all together, just to shoot that 1 gun.

**willydstyle**

I wouldn't say that a tactical squad's heavy weapon is it's #1 asset. It's #1 asset is the fact that it's 10 scoring bodies that have at least a decent chance of success at whatever task you throw it at.

It has bolters and possibly a special weapon, or even bolt pistols and CC for anti-infantry duty.

And it has a heavy weapon which, if the unit is already planning on remaining stationary, can give the unit some anti-tank punch.

Of further note is that tactical squads have krak grenades, giving them a good chance of success against most vehicles that venture nearby as well.

This is the reason why I suggest using the "move the rhino forward then sit" strategy, as it puts the tactical squad into a position where it can use any of it's weapons as the situation calls for, and a multi-melta is still one of the most dangerous anti-tank weapons in the game, with a success rate that far outstrips most other weapons as long as you can maneuver it into position.

**Sanctjud**

Well, it's a tactical squad.
The point is that it can do anything you want it to...just not a master at any of those roles.

Tactical squads are a support option for the support options in the Army List. How well they do is co-dependent on everything else doing their jobs.

**eNvY**

I treat heavy weapons in tactical squads as a nice little bonus. A free missile launcher adds some flexiblity, but I won't sit 9 marines around on my table edge to use just the missile launcher because I'm wasting a lot of the unit's potential.

Tactical Squads with Rhinos are best used as tough, mobile, support units. There is little that fear 8 bolters, one meltagun, and a bolt pistol. Tac squads are not meant to be killing machines. You simply need to use them to support other more killy options.

Rhinos are just so versatile that for 35 points you really can't go wrong. 2/3 of the missions you play you'll be glad you've taken them even if your marines never set food inside of the things. Mobile cover, move blockers, tank shocks, rams, LoS blocking, etc etc.

**Monster Rain**

Don't leave home without Rhinos.

You'd be surprised how durable they can be with judicious use of smoke, and by extension how durable they make your Tactical Marines.

**JSK-Fox**

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Solon
its one of many potential uses for a rhino.... It sounds like you're pursuing a gunline strategy... My advice is to not go down that road. Marines just aren't very good at it.

You are right, they aren't very good at it, they are GREAT at it.
They have powerful weaponry, lots of weapons, and dreadnoughts.

**Grey Templar**

Marines certaintly do shooty.

it is a different kind of shooty, but is shooty nontheless.

in a marine gunline Tacs are the glue that holds everything together.

10 man tac squads are not 1 unit doing 2 things. they are 2 units each doing 1 specific task. lascannon half pops tanks and transports. special weapons goes after things threatining my Dreds, predators, vindicators, objectives.

**kaidsin**

At 1000 points i use 3 rhinos. 1 Rhino with 5 men, (combat squad) Sergent with combi-flamer and flamer, x2. That gives me two flamer templates out of the rhion while my guys are safe, and i can leave 5 men to sit on an objective (or in cover) and fire there heavy weapon. I also use a lib with sterngaurd riding in another rhino. Fire points allow your lib to cast spells from safety and the avenger is a very powerful weapon to closely packed squads. (this list is for nids, and orks and was ment to have as much fire as possible while defending from hordes of small atks) I have played and used this list several times to pretty good effects. (of course MEQ and shooty tank armies destroy it with ease)

**Loricatus Aurora**

Some good advice I have recieved in the past is to think about deployment

With Sicarius and Khan you can outflank a tac squad with combi + special - given you could come on either flank and the mobility of a rhino squad, think about what that forces your opponent to at least consider in their own deployment. Throw in an IC with a second combi weapon and thats 3 melta shots if he puts a vehicle near that flank.

I have rarely relied on tacticals in rhinos to 'save the day' like I rely on my assault termies in LR however I would always get them rides. Given everything can kill them, dismounted infantry does not survive well on 40k battlefields.

Racing a tac squad back to rapid fire termies/lesser demons etc who deep striked (struck?) is an obvious point per Darhound's original post above.

**AbaddonFidelis**

lol ok fox

**JSK-Fox**

Just don't get angry because you think tacticals suck. They are objective takers, and multi-role units. Also, they are a very good unit for using, oh, i dunno, TACTICS with. Running them up ain't gonna make them live. Driving them up probably will keep them alive long enough to kill quite a few units. Also, please prove your reasoning on why you disagree. I'd love to know, so that everyone could be more knowledgable.

**AbaddonFidelis**

whose angry?
you said: please prove your reasoning on why you disagree
that sounds really.... really....... boring. sorry it's just self evident that marines aren't a gunline army. I don't have any interest in trying to convince you otherwise.
AF

**Grey Templar**

Marines can be shooty.

are they as Shooty as guard? no, but they make up for that by being more accurate with the fire they do have.

Marines are more shooty then they are assaulty.

if you don't belive me read my Tactics article on Gunline marines. it also contains some tactics for Tactical marines that will make anyone better at using them.

**AbaddonFidelis**

a guardsman with a lascannon is a better shot than a marine with the same. 4+ twin linked is better than 3+
AF

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides that guard have more of them. Trying to outshoot guard or tau with marines is asking...begging... pleading... to lose.

**willydstyle**

Guard don't always get twin-linked. Orders are unreliable unless you spend considerable points making them reliable.

**PanzerLeader**

AbaddonFidelis wrote:a guardsman with a lascannon is a better shot than a marine with the same. 4+ twin linked is better than 3+
AF

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides that guard have more of them. Trying to outshoot guard or tau with marines is asking...begging... pleading... to lose.

This displays ignorance of how marines work. A good Marine army has the tools to out-shoot assault based armies and out-fight shooty armies. Marine armies in particular can pack in alot of mobile heavy weapons on speeders and attack bikes as well as on transports and tanks. This lets them out maneuver most static gun line armies to fight against weak spots. It also lets them avoid select assaults for an additional turn to crank more firepower into enemy assault units. I build my Marines as a shoot first force because I play alot of armies like Chaos, Tyranids and Land Raider with Terminator MEQs that I know I can't out fight in hand to hand. I've also found that my Marine army can outshoot guard in the 37-48 inch range band, allowing me to pop selected transports to deny the Guard the ability to overwhelm me across the board with their special weapon spam and giving me the time to outfight him where I need to.

**AbaddonFidelis**

Panzer Leader
you said: This displays ignorance of how marines work
I'd prefer you didn't insult me. sigh.....

you said: A good Marine army has the tools to out-shoot assault based armies and out-fight shooty armies.
that's the theory. hence marines will be trying to *assault* guard because guard *shoot*

you said: . I've also found that my Marine army can outshoot guard in the 37-48 inch range band
Sure, if your opponent is relying on special weapons. Do you think, if he's relying on lascannons, that you're going to outshoot him at 37-48 inches? Look at what he pays for a lascannon and what you pay for it.

you said: I build my Marines as a shoot first force because I play alot of armies like Chaos, Tyranids and Land Raider with Terminator MEQs that I know I can't out fight in hand to hand.
That sounds like a good adaptation to the local meta. Nothing to disagree with there.

AF

**PanzerLeader**

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Panzer Leader
you said: This displays ignorance of how marines work
I'd prefer you didn't insult me. sigh.....

you said: A good Marine army has the tools to out-shoot assault based armies and out-fight shooty armies.
that's the theory. hence marines will be trying to *assault* guard because guard *shoot*

you said: . I've also found that my Marine army can outshoot guard in the 37-48 inch range band
Sure, if your opponent is relying on special weapons. Do you think, if he's relying on lascannons, that you're going to outshoot him at 37-48 inches? Look at what he pays for a lascannon and what you pay for it.

you said: I build my Marines as a shoot first force because I play alot of armies like Chaos, Tyranids and Land Raider with Terminator MEQs that I know I can't out fight in hand to hand.
That sounds like a good adaptation to the local meta. Nothing to disagree with there.

AF

And where does a guard player get all his lascannons from? I have found very IG lists that can pack in a large number of lascannons that can simultaneously engage seperate targets. The most cost efficient way to buy them in Vendettas and HW squads also commits them to firing at a single target. My normal marine list can engage 7 targets with 8 lascannons at range on any given turn. Most IG lists are limited to 5 or less targets if they are mechanized. If not, I have seen one list that can throw 31 lascannon shots at 22 different targets but he runs into problems because he can't get orders off to all of them and placing them in positions where they can get stand off range from assault is difficult because of the sheer number of models involved in that list. Fighting IG is not all about the guns. Its also about the balance of different weapons in the army and how he is forced to deploy because of the choices he made to get those weapons.

And I reserve the right to call something ignorance on principle when a statement makes a broad, sweeping assumption about how an army is constructed and what its strengths and weaknesses are without any justification. There are literally hundreds of ways to build an army out of every codex and each possible build will have a seperate look and feel to it. The nuances of 40K make it virtually impossible to simply say that "IG will always outshoot X" because someday an IG player might plop down a conscript heavy force supported by rough riders designed to overwhelm through sheer numbers. 200+ IG bodies in 2000 points is pretty hard to deal with in a standard take all comers list.

**willydstyle**

Panzerleader: making a lot of good sense.

**AbaddonFidelis**

contrast your flexibility in shooting with the guard player's near certainty of destroying what he's shooting at bc of orders and his ability to mass so many more lascannons.
Your 1 lascannon has a less than 1/4 chance of killing even the lightest targets in cover.

you said: Fighting IG is not all about the guns. Its also about the balance of different weapons in the army and how he is forced to deploy because of the choices he made to get those weapons.
Can you be more specific?

you said: And I reserve the right to call something ignorance on principle when...
insulting is against the rules. While you might not feel like it's insulting to say I'm ignorant, I do, and a moderator will probably agree if I decide to make an issue out of it.

You're right there are many possibilities and a new build that takes everyone by surprise is always possible. As in chess however there are a finite number of possibilities and the strongest choices are generally known to the best players. If you can think of something totally surprising and take the 40k world by storm then by all means do it. Until then though I'm going to assume that you don't have any special knowledge that is not being accurately reflected in the results of grand tournaments ard boyz etc. While you might feel like that's a close minded approach to the game I feel that we don't need to re-invent the wheel. Those builds are based on thousands of players playing thousands of games - their experience should be taken into account. What that experience suggests is that guard are shootier than marines. For the reasons we have been discussing.

AF

**Dracos**

The phrase "this displays ignorance" is not insulting you, but rather saying that your statement shows a lack of knowledge.

Get insulted all you want, but it is his right to attack statements you make in a debate in this way - especially when he elaborates as to how and why.

If you think its such a big deal call a mod. I'm sure they will not take your side, as he was calling your statement ignorant, not yourself.

**AbaddonFidelis**

ugh. do you have something to contribute dracos or are you just trolling?

**insaniak**

How about everyone lays off the personal remarks and sticks to the actual topic, hmm?