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Hi guys! lookin' at the ironclad dread, really cool model [IMO]

anyway, I'm considering:

Ironclad dreadnought
chainfist [S10+2D6 pen? hells yes!] Meltagun
DCCW for the extra attack, W/ heavy flamer [in case I get stuck with some of those damned swarm infantry!]
Take two Hunter-killer missiles
ironclad assault launchers [for those pesky covermongering guardsmen, though lord knows how this baby will ever come to need a combat with guard.]
Drop pod [35]

costing me a grand total, of 170 pt.

good arm-out? It's got two krak missiles to pick off lucky chance tanks when it deepstrikes, maybe two lucky leman russi damages, putting them out for a good turn or so [at worst]. which is worth it for 20pt. then, I can charge one of those tanks, melta-it and maybe flame it, do some 2D6S10 Armour pen against what is usually AV13

it's beast against heavy infantry [T4, Sv2+/5+ for example] and even worse for Land raiders.

whats the thought?

plus, it's got a banner!

The chainfist is fairly redundant - except against Land Raiders (if you have trouble with them), you're automatically penetrating the rear armour of most vehicles. Remember that you roll against the rear armour of vehicles without a WS in combat.
Treat it like you would a regular dread, albeit with better armour. If you know you need to hunt other dreads, the chainfist might be worth it.

Venerable dreads are arguably just as survivable, but don't have as much fancy gear.

If you're podding it down, which is good for ironclads due to their increased survivability, the main thing is to have a meltagun for the first turn drop'n'pop.

well, it's either 2D6 penetration or +1 to damage table:

If I'm ending up against LR, the 2D6 is going to be handy, as with monoliths.

and, You only hit against rear if you use a grenade?

Remember the chainfist also make you stike last don't take a hurricane bolter with it other wise, when fighting elite infantry/other walkers you may never get a chance to strike back.


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Captain Solon wrote:well, it's either 2D6 penetration or +1 to damage table:

If I'm ending up against LR, the 2D6 is going to be handy, as with monoliths.

and, You only hit against rear if you use a grenade?

You always hit the rear in CC, its to represent someone walking up to the driver port and sticking sword in, or going to the side and firing thier weapon though the engine exhaust, or blocking a weapon barrel.

I think the Seismic Hammer is better than the Chainfist. I would rather have the +1 to vehicle damage chart per hit, of course if you are facing lots of Russes and Landraiders......Ymmv.

As for the Venerable.. I like the Ironclad's MTC over the stunned->shaken... and Ironclad comes with extra armor standard.

If you assault any vehicle without a WS (i.e not a Dread) then you always make attacks against the rear armour.

Don't take the chainfist, you are already S10 so assuming you hit that tank is pretty much dead if you have the Hammer (instant pen and +1 on the chart). The only vehicles the chainfist might help against are Land Raiders (remember you don't get the 2D6 against a Monolith) but the Hammer still gets the job done and crucially doesn't drop you to I1 which cripples you against any none vehicle unit you come up against.

Apart from maybe the Assault Launchers (which are a tad more important, probably should be the first upgrade you buy usually) pretty much any of the upgrades can be added if you have the points spare. You don't need any of them for the Ironclad to be effective but if you have the points pretty much all the upgrades can be helpful.

fair enough.

maybe, if I'm going up against lots of planned LR, and many planned monoliths, I'll take the Chainfist.

they're interchangeable.

Captain Solon wrote:fair enough.

maybe, if I'm going up against lots of planned LR, and many planned monoliths, I'll take the Chainfist.

they're interchangeable.

You still won't get 2d6 vs a monolith. The seismic hammer is the better choice. I run two of these standard with two HK Missiles. The Assault Launchers are nice but I don't use them it's tempting tho because not only do they count as frag grenades they also count as defensive grenades.

why are monoliths so overpowered?

Captain Solon wrote:why are monoliths so overpowered?

Captain Solon wrote:why are monoliths so overpowered?

Because when 25% of the footsoldiers are dead everything else goes and phases off the board if I understand the rule correctly?

Just look at it this way, all you need is a 4+ to glance or a 5+ to pen, with 2/3 dice I personally like those odds.

Help me out on this one - new to SM - how do you use those Hunter-Killer Missiles? I am assembling an Ironclad (and it's Pod) Seems like it will be stuck in in short order. Do they shoot the round you pop out of the Pod? At different targets than the Melta?

I don't see them being used a lot on SM lists.

Captain Solon wrote:why are monoliths so overpowered?

They aren't. They are overpriced garbage in an army that can't compete in 5th very well (or at all) If they bring one, its a single rock army. If they bring 2, its a rather heavy points sink. If they bring 3, they don't have an army.

What annoys people about them is they can only ever have 1 dice rolled against them. Melta? 1d6+8. Chainfist? 1d6+Sx2. Rather annoying sure, and weapon destroyed does nothing other than reduce defensive fire, so it can't be glanced to death. Its a big freaking rock that draws aggro from all the players who don't know what to do against necrons.

As for the Iron Clad Dred: Don't take HK missiles if you pod in. The HK are better when you start with him on the board. I don't really recommend podding the IC to begin with, it potentially exposes the rear armor against mobile melta (the IC weakness, even from the front) and its offensive potential isn't that high with just one melta gun and possibly a heavy flamer. (a MM/HF speeder is better and cheaper at this role). So I would use the dred as a counter assault unit that escorts your mobile gun line. Prevents nasty assault units from getting all jumpy over your guys, and can draw long range anti tank (which it is survivable against). It takes a big mob of them to cross the board, but they are hilarious with a master of the forge, and 6 of them. (and can you imagine your opponents jaw when you fire 12 HK missiles first turn?)

One issue the IC has for someplayers is war gear bloat. Its tempting to give it all the wargear that it can have. In the case of the IC, some of it actually reduces the capability of the model! Look at the chainfist, put it at strikes last in exchange for adding a pen dice (when most of the time you auto pen or pen at the very worst on a 5) Or hurricane bolter. 3-6 TL bolter shots is the definition of underwhelming, especially since it reduces your number of attacks. So that leaves you with assault launchers: 15 points assault for assault and defensive 'nades? Could be useful, but rather expensive. Lastly there is the HK missiles. HK missiles are one shot items, but with the short range of the IC dread, and the fact that it can take 2, its a rather tempting choice if you have the points. 1 HK doesn't do much, but bring enough, and you can alpha strike an opposing mech list and disable much of its transports.

disagree..... monoliths are the 1 bright spot to a dark, depressingly sucky codex. Even after all this time it's one of the best tanks in the game. It has good offensive power, blocks line of sight, and is nearly impossible to get rid of. Best you can do is take your lumps from it and try to kill enough warriors to make it go home.

Anyway...
I don't think you need the frag launchers on the dread. It basically will be fighting two classes of target: things that can threaten it and have higher initiative than it does anyway, and things that cannot threaten it in which case initiative order doesn't matter. One HK missile is fine if you have extra points but I wouldn't make a point out of taking them.... krak missiles just reek of mediocrity....You can't fire the flame thrower in close combat..... That being said if you have the option (dont remember 1 way or the other) double up on flamethrowers or meltaguns. Don't mix them; pick your target and then build to kill that...Drop Pod is a yes, definitely. Close Combat dreads should never walk.
AF

can't have two meltaguns, otherwise I would. but the heavy flamer makes more sense then a Sbolter.

I can whip out about 5 hits PT.

lets run some numbers:
Storm bolter: [Bs4, S4 vs. T4 sv3+]
2 shots = 1.33
1.33 hits = 0.67 wounds
0.45 saves, therefore 0.22 wounds.
Heavy flamer: S5 V. T4 Sv3+
5 hits = 3.33 wounds
3.33 wounds = 2.22 saves = 1.11 wounds.
Meltagun =
1 shot = 0.67 hits
0.67 hits = 0.56 wounds
0.56 wounds = 0.56 unsaved wounds

storm bolter + HF = 1.78 wounds caused.
HF + HF = 2.22 wounds caused
MG + HF = 1.67 wounds caused.

So, really two heavy flamer causes the best wound chance, however it's kind of not worth it. I'd rather have an anti-tank and light anti-horde purpose.

don't know about you.

the flame throwers are unquestionably better for killing things... almost all things... than the storm bolters. It depends on how much it costs. I think it's only 5 points...which kind of turns the question "why" into "why not?"

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the flame throwers are unquestionably better for killing things... almost all things... than the storm bolters. It depends on how much it costs. I think it's only 5 points...which kind of turns the question "why" into "why not?"

Well, often there isn't enough points. Replacing the SB is 10 points, replacing the melta is 5. Often too many "why nots" become war gear bloat when applied army wide. I do like the HF option, especially if you are podding it in. If you are using them as counter assault, then save the points and go with the storm bolter. (because if you are close enough to flame, you are close enough to assault, and a CC dreads job is to assault and tarpit)

all depends on what the opportunity cost of those 2 flamers was.... the 15 points are just floating if you don't have something specific you want to spend them on. So I guess in this case we'd want to see the list. But yeah don't pork your list with wargear just because you want toyz.
AF


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if he's running vulkan the flame throwers get crazy good and are auto includes on the dread.

Don't go with a Chainfist unless your walker will only be assaulting Vehicles without a WS or Infantry that can't hurt it.

Chainfists strike at I1 just like the Infantry version. RAW: you also can't get the additional attack that the DCCW gives you.


Seismic hammer is better as Str10+2d6 is pretty much overkill against most vehicles. +1 on the damage chart is better when you are trying to kill tanks and walkers.


I prefer 2 Heavy flamers to a flamer and a Meltagun. the Dred is already gonna wreck tanks in CC, the melta gun could simply stop your dred short out in the open.

2 HFs + Vulkan is NOT funny against orks or Nids(its downright hystarical ) try 3 ICs with 2 HFs and Vulkan

AbaddonFidelis wrote:disagree..... monoliths are the 1 bright spot to a dark, depressingly sucky codex. Even after all this time it's one of the best tanks in the game. It has good offensive power, blocks line of sight, and is nearly impossible to get rid of. Best you can do is take your lumps from it and try to kill enough warriors to make it go home.

Anyway...
I don't think you need the frag launchers on the dread. It basically will be fighting two classes of target: things that can threaten it and have higher initiative than it does anyway, and things that cannot threaten it in which case initiative order doesn't matter. One HK missile is fine if you have extra points but I wouldn't make a point out of taking them.... krak missiles just reek of mediocrity....You can't fire the flame thrower in close combat..... That being said if you have the option (dont remember 1 way or the other) double up on flamethrowers or meltaguns. Don't mix them; pick your target and then build to kill that...Drop Pod is a yes, definitely. Close Combat dreads should never walk.
AF

Disagree just a little. The assault launchers are the best piece of wargear for my Ironclads because they also count as defensive grenades. Powerfists losing the bonus attack for charging is huge, especially if you plan on drop podding them aggressively. I typically run mine with HF, MG, and assault launchers on foot. Between the Predator and the Vindicator, there is enough AV 13 that people have problems picking the Iron Clads off at range and the HF helps you soften up infantry squads before you charge in. I try to set my Iron Clads up so that rather than tarpitting forever they can finish the combat off in a round or two and get back into the main fight. Drop Pods are only necessary if the rest of your army is podding. If its just the Iron Clads in the pods, you're better off foot slogging.

Ironclad assault launchers are a waste of points.

The most common things that can hurt ironclads in CC are MC and Pfists.

Pfists/Pklaws already go in Imitative 1 and squad size is going to be at least 5. The only way an ironclad is going to need it's I4 on the 1st round of assault is if it kills all 5 MEQ in the 1st round, a mathematically impossible task if I might add since it's impossible to kill 5 MEQ on the charge when an ironclad only has 4 attacks on the charge. On round 2 the MEQ pfists are still at I1 while the ironclad is at I4, but by the the launchers don't matter so it's spending 15 points on defensive grenades.

Against MC there are several types to worry about.

High I MC like deamon princes and Hive Tyrants. Assault grenades mean absolutely nothing against these MC.

6 wound TMC. Initiative means little here. If the ironclad goes 1st it will do 0-4 wounds on a charge, and the TMC attacks back. There is no possible way to win in the 1st round of combat. The only real defense the ironclad has is AV13.

Carnifax are already initiative 1, but will shred in Ironclad in CC. Str9+2D6Pen=Dead Ironclad. You may be thinking because it has 4 wounds the iron clad can drop it on I4 before it swings back, and you're wrong. The chances of all 4 hits landing on the carnifex is 19.75%, the chance of all 4 wounding is 38%, and the chance of all 4 landing and all 4 wounding in the same turn is 7.5%. It's possible for an ironclad to drop a carnifax in 1 round of swings, but it's 92.5% improbable for that to happen. Frag grenades won't make any difference in the combat.

Against the Avatar, Summoned Greater Deamon, Specific Greater deamons, and Necron gods things look even more bleak for the Ironclad. They all have at least a 4+ invo, and some have a WS of 9+. It's theoretically possible to drop one in 1 round of combat, but even less probable than a carnifax. Frag grenades won't make any difference in the combat.

Your analysis completely leaves out defensive grenades. I'm not sure how much difference it will make, but leaving out half of benefit of the upgrade leaves your analysis very flawed.

schadenfreude wrote:Ironclad assault launchers are a waste of points.

The most common things that can hurt ironclads in CC are MC and Pfists.

Pfists/Pklaws already go in Imitative 1 and squad size is going to be at least 5. The only way an ironclad is going to need it's I4 on the 1st round of assault is if it kills all 5 MEQ in the 1st round, a mathematically impossible task if I might add since it's impossible to kill 5 MEQ on the charge when an ironclad only has 4 attacks on the charge. On round 2 the MEQ pfists are still at I1 while the ironclad is at I4, but by the the launchers don't matter so it's spending 15 points on defensive grenades.

Against MC there are several types to worry about.

High I MC like deamon princes and Hive Tyrants. Assault grenades mean absolutely nothing against these MC.

6 wound TMC. Initiative means little here. If the ironclad goes 1st it will do 0-4 wounds on a charge, and the TMC attacks back. There is no possible way to win in the 1st round of combat. The only real defense the ironclad has is AV13.

Carnifax are already initiative 1, but will shred in Ironclad in CC. Str9+2D6Pen=Dead Ironclad. You may be thinking because it has 4 wounds the iron clad can drop it on I4 before it swings back, and you're wrong. The chances of all 4 hits landing on the carnifex is 19.75%, the chance of all 4 wounding is 38%, and the chance of all 4 landing and all 4 wounding in the same turn is 7.5%. It's possible for an ironclad to drop a carnifax in 1 round of swings, but it's 92.5% improbable for that to happen. Frag grenades won't make any difference in the combat.

Against the Avatar, Summoned Greater Deamon, Specific Greater deamons, and Necron gods things look even more bleak for the Ironclad. They all have at least a 4+ invo, and some have a WS of 9+. It's theoretically possible to drop one in 1 round of combat, but even less probable than a carnifax. Frag grenades won't make any difference in the combat.

Your analysis is also flawed because you ignore the rest of the Iron Clad's capabilities (i.e. shooting) and its role within the rest of the army. The big benefit of defensive grenades is the loss of an attack on the charge by enemy units. the offensive grenades are a bit meh but making someone intent on powerfisting the dreadnought lose an attack is huge. I would also never consider sending a single IC to kill an unwounded carnifex a good idea. Its tactically pretty silly and not even a legitimate comparison since a carnifex is a 160 points before any upgrades and an Iron Clad fully upgraded with launchers AND Heavy flamer is 145. The carnifex should have the advantage 1 on 1 every time in that battle. Nor is the Iron Clad priced competitively with any other MC you mentioned in your list. The closest would be the avatar at 155, which puts him 10 points ahead if you buy the launchers and 25 points ahead if you don't. The Iron Clad fulfills a very good role as a counter assault unit to mop up injured units and MCs (say, a carnifex whose already taken 2 or 3 wounds) because he can meltagun and then charge needing only one or two wounds out of five chances to be successful (shooting plus 4 attacks).

Against MEQs, the iron clad really shines because you can heavy flamer the 5 MEQs you mentioned, shoot them with a meltagun, and then charge. It is certainly not mathematically impossible for an IC to kill 5 MEQs in a turn. You also didn't include the LD test if the MEQs lose combat. Sometimes killing one or two and breaking them off an objective late in the game can be enough.

As have been pointed out, its not the frag grenades that are the best thing about the launchers but its the defensive grenades.

just to add to the discussion about MEQs, why would you want to whipe them in the first round? You are much better of being locked in combat than taking melta shots. A PF will hit once, then need a 6 to penetrate and then a further 5 or 6 to destroy. I wouldnt worry about PFs at all...

the Grenades also make one of the biggest enemies of Walkers much less effective.

PK nob in a mob of boyz.

the launchers rob the mob of their +1 Str and I as well as the attack with Str being the key loss. Str8 glances on a 5 against an IC while 9 does so on a 4.

PK nobs kill normal dreads. ICs laugh in their face.

I agree with schaden.
the defensive grenades are nice, granted, but I don't think they're telling.... one less attack on their part isn't going to change things so dramatically that it's worth the points. ie. if they can kill you with 5 attacks they can probably do it with 4 too.

dreadnoughts occupy a weird middle range of units; they're no match for a blood thirster or any other serious close combat monster, but neither are they at all threatened by most infantry squads. The initiative order isn't going to make a difference in either instance.

As far as the power fist.... it only penetrates you on a 6.... if you can't face those odds without flinching....
AF

Assault Launchers are fantastic. Keep them. Especially if you're going to be dropping into the hot zone against unknown enemies. Knocking an attack off of that Nob or Daemon Prince can make all the difference in the world.

I run mine with a Heavy Flamer and DCCW, and a Seismic Hammer with a melta, Ironclad Assault Launchers and a Drop Pod and it works really nicely.

Keep your back to your pod if you think you will have stuff moving to shoot at your back and try to get a cover save from it.

I guess the issue with the assault launchers is the rather hefty cost of 15 points for something that could be useful in rather specific situations. Normally a PF isn't going to threaten a normal dred very realistically. For SM sarges, 3 attacks on the charge, 1.5 hit, need a 6 to pen, need a 5+ to destroy. Dropping that attack down one isn't going to really matter much when you are looking at those numbers. Against Ork nobs, it matters a bit more, with them needing just 5s to pen, and getting 4 attacks on the charge. Same goes with any unit with furious charge and a PF. Still not the greatest chance to hurt it, so I guess it is a matter of how much you think you will need that insurance, and how many points you have free at the end of your list building.

notabot187 wrote:I guess the issue with the assault launchers is the rather hefty cost of 15 points for something that could be useful in rather specific situations. Normally a PF isn't going to threaten a normal dred very realistically. For SM sarges, 3 attacks on the charge, 1.5 hit, need a 6 to pen, need a 5+ to destroy. Dropping that attack down one isn't going to really matter much when you are looking at those numbers. Against Ork nobs, it matters a bit more, with them needing just 5s to pen, and getting 4 attacks on the charge. Same goes with any unit with furious charge and a PF. Still not the greatest chance to hurt it, so I guess it is a matter of how much you think you will need that insurance, and how many points you have free at the end of your list building.

When you're buying a Drop Pod for an Ironclad in an All-Comers list you have to expect that you'll be spending some time with charge range of Nobz and Blood Angels Sergeants though. I think it's much more useful than what... a power weapon on one of your own Sergeants? Tactical Marines are going to get wrecked by anything that can take down an Ironclad!

Well. the chainfist is a little silly, IMO. I'd only take a chainfist on a dread for Apoc or something where I need tanks dead quickly. Otherwise, it's a bit too much.

DDCW seems okay...I guess. Without the chainfist, you can put something cooler on it...The HK missiles are good.