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Say a Librarian and Sanguinary Priest are in an Assault Squad - the Librarian and Priest do not have the Red Thirst rule, but they are joined to the squad at the beginning of the game.

I roll for thirst, and receive a 1, meaning the squad gets Furious Charge and Fearless for the duration of the game. Do the ICs get that rule while they're in the squad?

If they do, what happens if they leave the squad for any reason?

Based on the way USR are defined in the BRB (i.e. certain rules explicitly say they are applied/lost when an IC joins/leaves a unit), unless the rule specifically says that the SP and the Librarian are affected, i'd say they weren't affected.

Speculation only though, YMMV.

Here's my take: the rules say "on a score of 1...the entire squad is treated as having the furious charge and fearless special rules".

So the Librarian would fall back, and the squad would take fearless saves? Seems odd to me.

Well if I rember correctly, doesnt Fearless get added to an IC joining a fearless unit? I can;t honestly remember.

If the IC DOES gain fearless from joining a fearless unit, then yes he'd be fearless - but he wouldn;t have the red thirst unless he failed his own individual roll. Furious Charge IIRC, is definately NOT an ability that an IC gains from joining a unit.

liam0404 wrote:Well if I rember correctly, doesnt Fearless get added to an IC joining a fearless unit? I can;t honestly remember.

If the IC DOES gain fearless from joining a fearless unit, then yes he'd be fearless - but he wouldn;t have the red thirst unless he failed his own individual roll. Furious Charge IIRC, is definately NOT an ability that an IC gains from joining a unit.

This is correct

That sounds right - thanks!

And the Librarian and Priest do not have their own thirst roll.

I agree the Librarian can't get FC from the assault squad's red thirst roll, but he'll get it from being within 6" of the priest.

Right. Don't think of it as 'The Red Thirst' rather than thinking of it like the assault squad has Fearless and Furious Charge (that was granted via the Red Thirst rule). Now, if they had those two USRs independantly of the librarian, would the libriarian be affected? Fearless - yes. FC - no.

As a BA player I would disagree. The Red Thirst rule, says you roll after deployment to see if the squad falls to the Red Thirst. If you attach any IC's to a squad are they not a part of the squad?

Since they are a part of the squad they are affected by the roll. They lose ATSKNF and gain fearless becasue they are a part of the squad when you rolled for Red Thirst.

I would love to agree with both sides, as I can see both sides, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to come down onto the side of 'Libby gets RT bonuses'. This is because when an IC joins a unit/squad, they become a part of said unit, correct? The BA codex then says, pertaining to the RT rule, that, if it is failed (or passed, depending on your point of view ) the UNIT (/squad, whatever, same thing ) gains the following USR's, Fearless and FnP, therefore, as the Libby is part of the unit, surely he should also gain the bonuses? My $0.02

I thought they gained Furious Charge? FnP would be a bit much...

So what happens when he leaves the squad or they are killed around him? Does he then retain Fearless and Furious Charge (not FnP)? I don't think so.

Ah, my bad, both begin with the same letter Yes I meant FC

@Arschbombe; I think I agree with you, as he WAS part of the unit, thus elligible to gain the rules, but if he detaches/unit dies, he becomes his own unit again doesn't he, so yes, I would say (also as a BA player) that he would lose those abilities.

I think everyone's on the same page with regard to Fearless since it is a USR that does get conferred to ICs who have joined with units who have it. FC is not one that gets conferred. There's no mechanism for the Red Thirst rule itself to get conferred as it is not a USR and there is no text in the BA dex that says ICs without it get it from squads they're attached to.

Page 48, Right Column, Special Rules.
"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rule from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in 'Stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character<snip>"

Claiming that a model without Red Thirst to get the benefits and drawbacks of Red Thirst because the squad of the unit to which he is joined is a stretch.

Mahtamori wrote:Claiming that a model without Red Thirst to get the benefits and drawbacks of Red Thirst because the squad of the unit to which he is joined is a stretch.

QFT.

So, in short, No, the IC doesn't suffer the Red Thirst's effects because he doesn't have the Red Thirst Rule.

He will be "Fearless" if he is with a Fearless unit, but won't have FC.

Gwar! wrote:So, in short, No, the IC doesn't suffer the Red Thirst's effects because he doesn't have the Red Thirst Rule.

He will be "Fearless" if he is with a Fearless unit, but won't have FC.

Only problem with this is that most of the BA IC's do have a rule which is effected when the red thirst roll is "successful".

If you read the whole Red Thirst Specail rule, it says at the end that the unit has Fearless and FC instead of ATSKNF. So at that point lets say for instance, Dante is joined to a sqaud who rolls a 1 on red thirst, he would then loose ATSKNF because he is a part of the unit. He will also gain Fearless and FC.

This is just like Vulkan and his chapter tactics. Dreadnaughts are all to gain the ability of Vulkan with the twin-linked melta's but they do not give up combat tactics because they do not have.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, in short, No, the IC doesn't suffer the Red Thirst's effects because he doesn't have the Red Thirst Rule.

He will be "Fearless" if he is with a Fearless unit, but won't have FC.

Only problem with this is that most of the BA IC's do have a rule which is effected when the red thirst roll is "successful".

If you read the whole Red Thirst Specail rule, it says at the end that the unit has Fearless and FC instead of ATSKNF. So at that point lets say for instance, Dante is joined to a sqaud who rolls a 1 on red thirst, he would then loose ATSKNF because he is a part of the unit. He will also gain Fearless and FC.

This is just like Vulkan and his chapter tactics. Dreadnaughts are all to gain the ability of Vulkan with the twin-linked melta's but they do not give up combat tactics because they do not have.

No. ATSKNF is not transferable to squads the IC joins to and Red Thirst is not transferable to ICs joined to the squad. Dante still has ATSKNF, but in a squad that is fearless it has no meaning. It should be noted that as long as Dante is part of the squad, he is Fearless and will be subject to No Retreat! as well.

Mahtamori wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, in short, No, the IC doesn't suffer the Red Thirst's effects because he doesn't have the Red Thirst Rule.

He will be "Fearless" if he is with a Fearless unit, but won't have FC.

Only problem with this is that most of the BA IC's do have a rule which is effected when the red thirst roll is "successful".

If you read the whole Red Thirst Specail rule, it says at the end that the unit has Fearless and FC instead of ATSKNF. So at that point lets say for instance, Dante is joined to a sqaud who rolls a 1 on red thirst, he would then loose ATSKNF because he is a part of the unit. He will also gain Fearless and FC.

This is just like Vulkan and his chapter tactics. Dreadnaughts are all to gain the ability of Vulkan with the twin-linked melta's but they do not give up combat tactics because they do not have.

No. ATSKNF is not transferable to squads the IC joins to and Red Thirst is not transferable to ICs joined to the squad. Dante still has ATSKNF, but in a squad that is fearless it has no meaning. It should be noted that as long as Dante is part of the squad, he is Fearless and will be subject to No Retreat! as well.

It is not whether ATSKNF is transferable it is that the Red Thirst rule specifically says and I quote "On a score of a 1, one or more members of the squad have succumbed to the red thirst and the ENTIRE squad is treat as having Furious Charge and Fearleass specail rules instead of And They Shall Know No Fear for the Duration of the game."

So at which point would Dante be a part of the squad? Is he a part of the ENTIRE squad? Does he have ATSKNF? Does Red Thirst effect all models in a squad?

Dante is never part of the squad. He is an IC attached to the squad at deployment.

Gwar! wrote:Dante is never part of the squad. He is an IC attached to the squad at deployment.

So Gwar what your saying is attaching a IC to a squad is not the same as a squad that has an IC in it? Help me understand your logic please! As far as I know when you attach an IC to a squad you treat it as a model in the squad. The only times there are execptions to this is when you are moving the IC away from the squad or during attacks in close combat, which are both rules that specificy what to do in those instances. So to say an IC is attached to the squad but not part of it is ludicris.

Additionally, I would like you to cite a page reference to back up your statment thank you.

Happens after deployment, and it's not a USR IC is part of the unit... unless I've missed something...

Special rules do not transfer to characters unless otherwise specified.

I think that is USR's.

In this case The Red Thirst specifies that the entire squad is treated as having Fearless and Furious Charge instead of ATSKNF.

So is the IC a part of the squad? Yes. Did the squad roll a 1 for The Red Thirst? Yes. The Entire Squad gains these rules and loses this rule.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:I think that is USR's.

In this case The Red Thirst specifies that the entire squad is treated as having Fearless and Furious Charge instead of ATSKNF.

So is the IC a part of the squad? Yes. Did the squad roll a 1 for The Red Thirst? Yes. The Entire Squad gains these rules and loses this rule.

No, He is not part of the squad.

If he was, he would never be able to leave.

Secondly, the IC doesn't have The Red Thirst, so he wouldn't be affected by the roll anyway.

Unless you can find some refference that gives specific rules how to treat army specific special rules, we have no choice but to treat them the same way we do universal ones.

Gwar! wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:I think that is USR's.

In this case The Red Thirst specifies that the entire squad is treated as having Fearless and Furious Charge instead of ATSKNF.

So is the IC a part of the squad? Yes. Did the squad roll a 1 for The Red Thirst? Yes. The Entire Squad gains these rules and loses this rule.

No, He is not part of the squad.

If he was, he would never be able to leave.

Secondly, the IC doesn't have The Red Thirst, so he wouldn't be affected by the roll anyway.

First thing first, Gwar when an IC joins a squad you treat them as part of the squad. Such is the case in shooting coherency and if the unit is falling back. So to say that an IC that has joined a squad is not a part of it is unfounded.

Secondly, Hoverboy on page 74 of the BRB it outlines that "Many units of models in Warhammer 40k have unique specail rules. There are, however , quite a few specail rules that are shared by several units, even across different codex books...." When it comes to army specific rules they are governed by the codex. When they have a reference they refer you to the USR's. It also states that if the Specail rule is different, the one in the codex takes precedence. So the only time you are to treat rules like USR's are when they are like USR's and refer to to them. Even at that point most of the time the Codex takes precedence.

And you have it the other way around (which I did not catch at first)!Specail rules marked with an * (Asterisk) are automatically lost by an IC joining a unit without this rule and vice versa. The Red Thirst has no such mark.

~!

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:First thing first, Gwar when an IC joins a squad you treat them as part of the squad.

Exactly, you TREAT them as pert of the squad for the purposes of shooting only. THEY DO NOT BECOME PART OF THE SQUAD.

Secondly, the IC does not have the Red Thirst Special Rule, so why would it affect him when the Red Thirst only affects models with that special rule?

Sorry Kapitalist-Pig, but you are completely and utterly wrong.