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There's an alarming trend now where people seem to think The Alpha Legion is interesting. I assure you they are not. By which I mean The Alpha Legion is not secretly working for the good of The Emperor. The Alphas can be summed up in the cliché "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." This is a very common theme in 40K. Indeed, is there a more told story in 40K fiction than the one of a Governor/General/ Inquisitor/guy doing something forbidden but what he feels is good for humanity and then being eventually damned for it?

Let's take a step back now. Many argue that the reasons behind a lot of the traitor primarchs treason were pretty immature under closer scrutiny. And indeed that is true. So despite what I said Alpharius (or Omegon) actually have the most intriguing reason. They were told by a bunch of Aliens that if The Emperor won The Heresy it would lead to 10,000 years of grim darkness and war...turns out that was true however I would argue that if a bunch of frikkin Xenos you never met tell you something like that you still stick by your father.

Nonetheless, they made their choice, they betrayed the emperor: not because they were chaos worshipping scum, not because they didn’t believe in the Imperium, not because they were angry but because it was the pragmatic thing to do for the supposedly most pragmatic legion. That is interesting actually.

Then The Dropsite Massacre happened. It was not just the death of 3 Legions but the death of there being some other side to the Alpha Legion. You don’t just kill 300,000 of your brothers and just carry on. There’s no coming back from that, any marine of conscience would have defected as soon as he heard that plan. That is literally were they just became another Traitor Legion. They can now be heard screaming vile praise to the Chaos Gods and growing tentacles and so on. So I admit the Legion’s History is interesting but their current status isn’t. They are exactly what they appear to be: Chaos Space Marines.

KamikazeCanuck wrote: They can now be heard screaming vile praise to the Chaos Gods and growing tentacles and so on. So I admit the Legion’s History is interesting but their current status isn’t. They are exactly what they appear to be: Chaos Space Marines.

Do you have any proof of this, out of curiosity?

Interesting.

Where is the mystery?

They played 007 until they didn't recognize who is who.

stop the trend. Omega marines FTW, Alpha Marines suck! or Alpha Marines FTW, Omega marines suck?

Seaward wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote: They can now be heard screaming vile praise to the Chaos Gods and growing tentacles and so on. So I admit the Legion’s History is interesting but their current status isn’t. They are exactly what they appear to be: Chaos Space Marines.

Do you have any proof of this, out of curiosity?

The Seige of Vraks.


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The Seige of Vraks is actually a very good example of The Alpha Legion's standard operating procedure. (and a Imperial rebellion at that).
99% of the Vraksian rebels didn't realize they were rebels. So when the Legion infiltrates they needed to pose as Loyalists. They then bolster the rebels forces killing the Emperor's actual mandated troops, the kriegers, all while yelling their battle cry "For The Emperor" i'm sure.
That's probably how rumors of their supposed loyalty get started but I assure you they were they to killl some Imperials. (and called in huge forces of Korne and Nurgle backup to boot.)

My pet theory is that the Alpha Legion is loyal to the Emperor's ultimate plans.

The Alpha Legion acts as control rods in a kind of human psychic growth reactor. The Chaos gods must remain distracted by the Horus Heresy and the aftermath. Should the Imperium gain too much of an upper hand, more systems will fall to chaos as people have more idle time to fall victim to psychic corruption. The constant warfare is beneficial to the psychic growth of mankind least mankind fall victim to Chaos as the Eldar did.

On the other hand, if Chaos gains the upper hand, civilization will collapse, and Chaos will gain direct control. A delicate ballence must be maintained. Mankind's psychic transformation will take thousands of years. It is all part of the Emperor's plan.

Warprat

Has Alpharius seen this thread yet? He has been pretty down on Chaos lately . . .

I have also noticed an explosion of Alpha Legion interest. While the XXth Legion is indeed interesting, I don't think that it's due to them being somehow loyal to the Emperor.

The Alpha Legion is loyal to themselves.

I don't think their fluff has ever been that they're secretly loyal to the Emperor.

I believe their fluff has always been that they were made aware prior to the Horus Heresy that humanity simply can't win against Chaos, and that the shorter the conflict, the less painful it would be - and also the less chance there would be that the entire galaxy would be destroyed. They were told that victory for Horus meant humanity would die off in two generations, and take the Chaos gods with them, while victory for the Emperor meant twenty thousand years of slow death for humanity, and the destruction of the entire galaxy. They sided with quick and painless.

Yes, the Daemon Prince Voldorius is fighting for the Emperor, he's just in really really really deep cover...

Basically KamikazeCanuck is right. There's a reason John Grammaticus decided to throw himself out an airlock.

Nurglitch wrote:Yes, the Daemon Prince Voldorius is fighting for the Emperor, he's just in really really really deep cover...

Basically KamikazeCanuck is right. There's a reason John Grammaticus decided to throw himself out an airlock.

Again, Alpha Legion fluff doesn't suggest they're fighting for the Emperor, only that they're not, ultimately, fighting for Chaos.

[quote=Seaward
Again, Alpha Legion fluff doesn't suggest they're fighting for the Emperor, only that they're not, ultimately, fighting for Chaos.

Seaward wrote:I don't think their fluff has ever been that they're secretly loyal to the Emperor.

I believe their fluff has always been that they were made aware prior to the Horus Heresy that humanity simply can't win against Chaos, and that the shorter the conflict, the less painful it would be - and also the less chance there would be that the entire galaxy would be destroyed. They were told that victory for Horus meant humanity would die off in two generations, and take the Chaos gods with them, while victory for the Emperor meant twenty thousand years of slow death for humanity, and the destruction of the entire galaxy. They sided with quick and painless.

Quick and painless and chaos in the same sentence? Sorry if they bougth into this, they're dumb.
Chaos doesn't need maknind. Their existance began when old ones and C'tan roamed the galaxy.

A reason to save the galaxy at the cost of mankind?
Lets see they are space marines and shall protect mankind. => screw the galaxy is the response I would expect.

1hadhq wrote:

Seaward wrote:I don't think their fluff has ever been that they're secretly loyal to the Emperor.

I believe their fluff has always been that they were made aware prior to the Horus Heresy that humanity simply can't win against Chaos, and that the shorter the conflict, the less painful it would be - and also the less chance there would be that the entire galaxy would be destroyed. They were told that victory for Horus meant humanity would die off in two generations, and take the Chaos gods with them, while victory for the Emperor meant twenty thousand years of slow death for humanity, and the destruction of the entire galaxy. They sided with quick and painless.

Quick and painless and chaos in the same sentence? Sorry if they bougth into this, they're dumb.
Chaos doesn't need maknind. Their existance began when old ones and C'tan roamed the galaxy.

A reason to save the galaxy at the cost of mankind?
Lets see they are space marines and shall protect mankind. => screw the galaxy is the response I would expect.

Yep, they bought it, and it's not exactly a bad thing to buy into. Humanity's not going to win, in the 40K universe. The Golden Throne's broken beyond repair, and as soon as it goes, so goes human interstellar travel; Chaos gets stronger, not weaker, as the years go by; the three known hive fleets may very well simply be the tiny tip of a very large iceberg for all we know.

Plus, I believe, though I'm not 100% sure, that at least three of the four Chaos gods are merely manifestations of human emotion, correct?

Alpha Legion recruited more on the basis of intelligence and lateral thinking than any other Legion, as far as I'm aware. They're the think-outside-the-box guys. If they became unshakably convinced that the Imperium was doomed no matter what they did, but that they could prevent a vast balance of human suffering and preserve a lot of the galaxy by switching sides, they're exactly the Legion that would not have the knee-jerk, conditioned, "Shut up I kill you!" Space Marine response.

Seaward wrote:



Yep, they bought it, and it's not exactly a bad thing to buy into. Humanity's not going to win, in the 40K universe. The Golden Throne's broken beyond repair, and as soon as it goes, so goes human interstellar travel; Chaos gets stronger, not weaker, as the years go by; the three known hive fleets may very well simply be the tiny tip of a very large iceberg for all we know.

Plus, I believe, though I'm not 100% sure, that at least three of the four Chaos gods are merely manifestations of human emotion, correct?

Alpha Legion recruited more on the basis of intelligence and lateral thinking than any other Legion, as far as I'm aware. They're the think-outside-the-box guys. If they became unshakably convinced that the Imperium was doomed no matter what they did, but that they could prevent a vast balance of human suffering and preserve a lot of the galaxy by switching sides, they're exactly the Legion that would not have the knee-jerk, conditioned, "Shut up I kill you!" Space Marine response.

Ok its not bad, its terrible.
The galaxy is screwed if any race fails like the eldar did. So how do you expect to save the galaxy in absence of mankind?
Because, chaos don't need them and there is no guarantee of chaos ceasing to exist as they may find new victims.
The rulebook clearly put M41 at the point where the IoM's fall would ruin the galaxy.
I agree it was reasonable to contact the AL, but then I would not buy into visions as those aren't of a pre-set future but a possible one.
And chaos seems to be aware of the use of visions and alters them sometimes. IMO the cabal was screwed when they attempted
to know of the future and alter it. Eldar try this all the time, and did they prevent their fall?

Seaward wrote:
Plus, I believe, though I'm not 100% sure, that at least three of the four Chaos gods are merely manifestations of human emotion, correct?

The Chaos Gods are the reflection in the warp of humanity's emotions yes. But they've grown powerful enough to be more than the sum of their parts and capable of actively encouraging the emotions that empower them.

At the most basic level (Yes, basic. People will quibble with this.)

Khorne is a reflection of and empowered by humanity's Anger, Pride and Hatred.
Tzeentch is a reflection of and empowered by humanity's Hope, Ambition and Will to Survive.
Nurgle is a reflection of and empowered by humanity's Fear, Despair and Apathy.
Slaanesh is a reflection of and empowered by humanity's Lust, Obsession and Desire for Excess.

In the warp these basic emotions and desires and urges are taken to grotesque extremes.

Mind you, the Four Great Powers aren't the only reflections. Just the most powerful. ALL of humanity's emotions are reflected in the warp.

1hadhq wrote:
Ok its not bad, its terrible.
The galaxy is screwed if any race fails like the eldar did. So how do you expect to save the galaxy in absence of mankind?
Because, chaos don't need them and there is no guarantee of chaos ceasing to exist as they may find new victims.
The rulebook clearly put M41 at the point where the IoM's fall would ruin the galaxy.
I agree it was reasonable to contact the AL, but then I would not buy into visions as those aren't of a pre-set future but a possible one.
And chaos seems to be aware of the use of visions and alters them sometimes. IMO the cabal was screwed when they attempted
to know of the future and alter it. Eldar try this all the time, and did they prevent their fall?

You sound like you actually think humanity ultimately wins in the 40K universe. It doesn't.

Chaos does in fact need humanity. Think of human emotion as the engine that powers Chaos; without it, would Chaos cease to be? Dunno. I think so, though. Someone better-versed on what exactly Chaos is could probably answer that.

If your point is that Alpha Legion could've been duped by Chaos into switching sides, sure, it's entirely possible. It doesn't change their motivations, though, nor the fact that they avoid the Eye of Terror, aren't favored with a bunch of mutations, and pretty generally just do their own thing without regard to what the Ruinous Powers would want them to be doing.

More than merely human emotions are reflected in the warp.

Seaward wrote:
You sound like you actually think humanity ultimately wins in the 40K universe. It doesn't.

5th ed rulebook page 116 disagrees with you.

Seaward wrote:
Chaos does in fact need humanity. Think of human emotion as the engine that powers Chaos; without it, would Chaos cease to be? Dunno. I think so, though. Someone better-versed on what exactly Chaos is could probably answer that.

Again, 5th ed rulebook page 101.
Chaos needs humanity to fail to take over.
It didn't need humans for 60.000.000 years after the war in heaven.
Codex Necrons explains the creation of chaos and back in these days were no humans ( as far as we know of ).

Seaward wrote:
If your point is that Alpha Legion could've been duped by Chaos into switching sides, sure, it's entirely possible. It doesn't change their motivations, though, nor the fact that they avoid the Eye of Terror, aren't favored with a bunch of mutations, and pretty generally just do their own thing without regard to what the Ruinous Powers would want them to be doing.

Thats how I see it. Visions carry the risk of chaos altering them.
Have to agree with the OP that AL isn't considered 'loyal' to the throne.
They kept their behaviour and stayed outside the warp, hidden and secretly following their ?own? goals.
But the ruinous powers aren't called ruinous for nothing. They corrupt any many A-legionaires should be minions of chaos now.

1hadhq wrote:But the ruinous powers aren't called ruinous for nothing. They corrupt any many A-legionaires should be minions of chaos now.

See, e.g., Voldorius.

Good point.

Going overboard with slaughter secured him a place on a spear as trophy of the white scars tough.....

Sadly, or not, all conjecture.

I'm fairly sure GW/BL/DA will never tell us exactly what's going on, so, it will be up to us, and everyone will be wrong and right at the same time!

(Does current background even have The Legion at the Dropsite Massacre?)

The reality (ha!) of it is more likely that The Legion thought they knew what was best for Humanity, and maybe for the Imperium, and it didn't quite work out as planned.

"Too clever by half", yes?

And now, some factions are 'loyal', some are 'traitor' and the whole thing's a mess!

1hadhq wrote:
5th ed rulebook page 116 disagrees with you.

5th edition rulebook page 116 is a map. I'm not sure what point you think it makes? It certainly doesn't say that the Imperium ultimately wins. If you're taking the first-person propaganda writing as indicative of objective assessment of the Imperium's situation, I dunno what to tell you.

Again, 5th ed rulebook page 101.
Chaos needs humanity to fail to take over.

Page 101 states that Chaos will use humanity as a conduit to bring the Warp into "real" space - if that's the part you're referring to. Which, of course, means that Alpha Legion working to kill off humanity so that that can't happen directly reinforces my point.

But I'm glad you've provided me with some core rulebook fluff to back it up!

Seaward wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
5th ed rulebook page 116 disagrees with you.

5th edition rulebook page 116 is a map. I'm not sure what point you think it makes? It certainly doesn't say that the Imperium ultimately wins. If you're taking the first-person propaganda writing as indicative of objective assessment of the Imperium's situation, I dunno what to tell you.

Maybe don't get distracted from the map and look at the text-box?

If were going to cast anything down as propaganda, there won't be any fluff.
But its ok,
the poster above you has already solved it for us.

We must believe him, he IS Alpharius...

To echo OP along a slightly divergent strand of thought, I don't like all this "CSM are actually anti-heroes" stuff. Aaron Dembski-Bowden is doing this with the Night Lords and, while his writing is good, it's pretty annoying to see these evil-doers portrayed as noble. Similarly, the Alpha Legionnaires are CHAOS Space Marines, not just disgruntled Space Marines. They are in fact BAD GUYS even by GrimDark standards. If you want anti-heroes, please think of the Dark Angels and leave our beloved villains as villains.

1hadhq wrote:
Maybe don't get distracted from the map and look at the text-box?

Right, the one written in first person? By that logic, it's also completely canon that the orks will in fact fight and kill everything in the galaxy, because they constantly say they will. That seems contradictory to the notion that the Imperium eventually wins, yet they're both published in the rulebooks!

Some sections of the book are written from the perspective of the faction they represent. Generally speaking, whenever the author uses "we" rather than the third person, such is the case. Of course the Imperium doesn't think it's going to lose. Napoleon thought he was going to win Waterloo. Simply believing something doesn't make it factual.


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Manchu wrote:To echo OP along a slightly divergent strand of thought, I don't like all this "CSM are actually anti-heroes" stuff. Aaron Dembski-Bowden is doing this with the Night Lords and, while his writing is good, it's pretty annoying to see these evil-doers portrayed as noble. Similarly, the Alpha Legionnaires are CHAOS Space Marines, not just disgruntled Space Marines. They are in fact BAD GUYS even by GrimDark standards. If you want anti-heroes, please think of the Dark Angels and leave our beloved villains as villains.

They are unquestionably trying to kill off the Imperium, I'll grant you that much. If they're the bad guys, though, who are the good guys?

@Seaward: Whether anyone likes it or not, 40k is EXPLICITLY about the Imperium. To quote Jervis and Matt Ward, every thing else constitutes "secondary characaters." The forces of the Imperium are the protagonists and as such their persepctive dominates the morality of the game. The "good guys" are not good because they reflect any 21st century IRL notions of morality (as Abnett and Dembski-Bowden seem to like) but rather because it is a key assumption of the universe--"because the game's creators said so." There isn't much room for intrinsic moral nuance in the GrimDark. Most simply put, being "bad" means opposing the Imperium. The defniitive opposition to the Imperium (or "cosmos") is Chaos.

Manchu wrote:@Seaward: Whether anyone likes it or not, 40k is EXPLICITLY about the Imperium. To quote Jervis and Matt Ward, every thing else constitutes "secondary characaters." The forces of the Imperium are the protagonists and as such their persepctive dominates the morality of the game. The "good guys" are not good because they reflect any 21st century IRL notions of morality (as Abnett and Dembski-Bowden seem to like) but rather because it is a key assumption of the universe--"because the game's creators said so." There isn't much room for intrinsic moral nuance in the GrimDark. Most simply put, being "bad" means opposing the Imperium. The defniitive opposition to the Imperium (or "cosmos") is Chaos.

I'm not sure that's true. Their perspective dominates...well, the perspective of the game. I've never seen Jervis nor Ward state that the Imperium are in fact the good guys, but simply the guys who the story is mainly about. That's certainly true. But the Imperium being the focus of the story doesn't automatically mean the Imperium are the good guys. At the risk of Godwining the thread, and using an extreme example, the HBO Films movie "Conspiracy" is about the Wannsee Conference; that's it's one and only focus. I wouldn't say that simply because it's told from the participants' perspective it should be taken to mean that they're the "good guys" of the story.

Attempting to speak from any position of absolute authority on this subject is foolish.

Let me rephrase what I'm saying: In the GrimDark, there are no identifiable "good" or "bad" guys by IRL standards. Even the Ultramarines are willing to destroy entire planetary populations at the end of the day. This is beause the moral perspective is ENTIRELY alien from our own, as opposed to your Nazi example. With 40k, we have to step into the shoes of the protagonists if we're going to have any understanding of it. We have to assume their values and goals. Otherwise, 40k loses all of its drama and peril.

Manchu wrote:Let me rephrase what I'm saying: In the GrimDark, there are no identifiable "good" or "bad" guys by IRL standards. Even the Ultramarines are willing to destroy entire planetary populations at the end of the day. This is beause the moral perspective is ENTIRELY alien from our own, as opposed to your Nazi example. With 40k, we have to step into the shoes of the protagonists if we're going to have any understanding of it. We have to assume their values and goals. Otherwise, 40k loses all of its drama and peril.

Perhaps for some. I personally find that I can understand the values, motivations, whatevers of a given faction without stepping into their shoes. Honestly, I find it arguably more dramatic to not do so; for all their ends-justify-the-means descent into totalitarian horror, the Imperium's still not going to pull it out in the end, and that's what I like about them. Tragedies are interesting, and offer no shortage of drama.

Which, incidentally, is also one of the reasons I like Alpha Legion.