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Just what the title says. I see a lot of lists with vindi's which are definitely awesomesauce, but the whirlwind is capable of ignoring cover, has great range, and fires indirectly (right?) so why don't I see more of them? Are they no longer a viable unit or are preds and vindi's so much better that taking even one isn't an option anymore?

I've had success with Whirlwinds before, but I think the Thunderfire Cannon, which costs only 15 points more and fulfills a very similar role with increase lethality, generally overshadows them. That said Whirlwinds can definitely be a strong choice, especially against light armies. Also, from what I'm hearing, they may enjoy a resurgence once the new Dark Eldar come out...

the main problem is that the current Meta is the Mech up.

aside from the occasional Greentide or Gaunt swarm you won't see many armies that are vulnerable to Str4 that Ignores cover.

Grey Templar wrote:the main problem is that the current Meta is the Mech up.

aside from the occasional Greentide or Gaunt swarm you won't see many armies that are vulnerable to Str4 that Ignores cover.

True but don't forget that the Whirlwind's main attack is S5 and ordnance, so it has some usefulness even against full mech armies.

That being said, I think 1-2 is all you really need. There is almost always something you can be bombing, Dev/Long Fang units, exposed infantry, AV10 vehicles etc but it doesn't have the all purpose nature of a Predator or Vindicator.

unless you get a direct hit you can't even hurt AV10 with it.

Str3+d6 can never glance any vehicle.

Grey Templar wrote:unless you get a direct hit you can't even hurt AV10 with it.

Str3+d6 can never glance any vehicle.

Also true.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you should go tank hunting with a Whirlwind, just that they aren't entirely useless in a mechanized enviornment.

Considering that alot of players already load up on Meltaguns and Missiles/Autocannons for anti-tank, having a long range dedicated anti-infantry weapon isn't a bad idea.

I like to think of it as a good counter to annoying cover save huggers like Lootas, Scouts or Pathfinders or a way to think big mobs of bugs/orks.

Running one in my SW- dakka list, and it performs really well. With the 14 ML and 4 LCs I got at 1500 pts. I got enough things to handle mech, what I really needed was some good ranged firepower with a nice template which even ignores cover against the big blobs and ork mobz which threaten to overcome me. Does a nice job so far and it is not entirely useless against enemy LFs or Devas, getting multiple saves on a unit with tons of Heavies is always nice, especially if the sarges survive and the guns go to hell xD...

But as I said I'm running SW, Vanillas really got a hard choice between the Thunderfire and the less popular Whirlwind. But the only thing in which the Whirly is better is the fact that it's cover ignoring ammo is AP5 which will ignore the armour of Imps. But the THF should be the most effective choice in most circumstances.

minigun762 wrote:I like to think of it as a good counter to annoying cover save huggers like Lootas, Scouts or Pathfinders or a way to think big mobs of bugs/orks.

This was my thinking - I didn't even think about using them for anti-mech, but I guess if there isn't anything else to shoot I'd give it a try. I know that my eldar pathfinders love their cover and denying them that with their 5+ armor saves and T3 would be devestating after 1-2 turns of firing.

Any tactics or tricks that marine players use with whirlwinds? Combos with other units?

You get more coverage from a Thunderfire Cannon then you do from a whirlwind. Plus with the Thunderfire, when its destroyed you still have a techmarine with a Servo pack.

Whirlwinds are a unit that looks really good on paper, but doesnt translate well into the field.

They really compete with dakka preds in the same slot for the same cost, or with thunderfires in the same slot for a few more points, rather than the significantly more-expensive and shorter-ranged vindicators.

The major advantage that a whirlwind has over both the dakka pred and TFC is indirect fire. Indirect fire is really good in the sense that it lets you do things that are impossible for everything else in your army to do. Also a whirlwind is more survivable than a TFC.

Its major disadvantage is that it's more specialized for particular targets than a dakka preds, and it has lower strength and shorter range than a TFC.

So it's a question of whether indirect fire is worth it as a tradeoff for you. I sometimes use one whirlwind (and two dakka preds) in an all-comers list, and it works overall about as well as a third pred.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
The major advantage that a whirlwind has over both the dakka pred and TFC is indirect fire. Indirect fire is really good in the sense that it lets you do things that are impossible for everything else in your army to do. Also a whirlwind is more survivable than a TFC.
.

Exactly my thinking. All three of these units fill the same niche and really its a toss up between extra firepower or extra durability or mobility on what you want.

I like the Whirlwind more because of the indirect fire nature of it, its raw to have that outside of IG. Dakka Predator is super cheap for the sheer amount of wounds it can put out which makes it better at stacking wounds on MCs or Terminators squads however it lacks any way to ignore cover. TFC might have the most firepower of all the choices but its entirely static and by far the easiest to knock out at range.

Whirlwinds vs Thunderfire cannon. At first glance the thunderfire cannon is the better choice, it has 4 blast shots per turn and can be fire at Strength 6.

If you look hard its easy to see the failings....
Problem 1 Techmarine has 1 wound and may be the one shot. (
Problem 2 To destroy the the thunderfire cannon you just need to pen or glance it.
Problem 3 Artillery cannot move and shoot. If you need to move to shoot some one then you loose a shooting phase.
Problem 4 You need LOS from both the tech marine and the thunderfire cannon to the target. If you can see every thing easily then every thing can see you.

On the other hand the cheaper whirlwind is barrage so does not need LOS. Barrage also means that, bar area terrain and special rules, you will not get a cover save from the Str5 AP4 shot. Barrage weapons are Pinning . Finally since you don't need to see the target (sure it helps) it makes it much simpler to hide the whirlwind.

At 85pts i think the whirlwind is a much better investment then the thunderfire cannon.

Catyrpelius wrote:You get more coverage from a Thunderfire Cannon then you do from a whirlwind. Plus with the Thunderfire, when its destroyed you still have a techmarine with a Servo pack.

Whirlwinds are a unit that looks really good on paper, but doesnt translate well into the field.

You know what both units have in common? They are both god awful.

Thunderfire, if it gets ANY glancing or pen hits at all, it is destroyed. Its AV 10... so nearly anything can glance it. Then you have a nearly useless guy that does something that isn't important, since most mech lists in SM like to play a midfield game, while thunder fires are in the back board edge. 100 points spent on a easily destroy unit that is only marginally good against the least played type of army? No thanks.

Whilwind: S4 or 5 template, doesn't need LoS. Can ignore cover. What about its AP? 4 if it doesn't ignore cover, 5 if it does? Well, it wounds guard on 3s with no saves if they are in cover, or wounds them on 2s with no saves if they aren't. So its not bad against foot guard on paper. What about its durability? Well its AV 11 rhino chasis isn't too great, so if anybody does shoot at it, at the very least it probably won't be shooting. Unless your playing against an opponent who is particularly concerned about a large low strength meh AP, it won't usually get shot at right away. If you are playing against a guy who can be hurt badly by it, it is going to take every long range anti low AV shot he has until it is silenced.

If I had to take one of the above, i would take the whirlwind, though I would rather have a dakka pred for the same cost.

As notabot187 says, if you need to kill lots of infantry, just get a dakka predator, sit it down in a ruin, and fire away. On average you're doing a good number of wounds if your enemy's not in cover, and you're a lot tougher with front armor 13.

M real preference for medium-range firepower, though, will always be sternguard vets.

Don't agree that the dakka predator is the way to go but then I'm not a massive fan of any of the heavy support options. Whirl wind has some nice perks VS hordes. Like most things you don't miss it until you need it.

//Warning Maths//
Predator with auto cannon and two heavy bolters only kicks out 8 shots of those 1/3 miss even against IG one will fail to wound and with 4+ cover we're looking at 2 dead ^_^ (exact odds are 10/36)

Something to consider about shooting with the Whirlwind's missile options is that barrages can ignore cover from terrain and units between the shooter and the target (though not in between the centre of the blast and the affected models). You only really need the Ignores Cover ammunition for stuff in area terrain or that has a permanent cover save like Orks under the influence of the Kustom Force Field. Sometimes, if you couldn't penetrate their armour anyways, there's no point in ignoring cover.

The thunderfire is great. What other unit in a SM army can reliably kill off those 20 orks that just fell out of their battlewagon? Clear of those 15 lootas that are clumped in area terrain to get cover? Stop bikers from turboboosting and make them loose 1 in 6 guys (with snipe potential) with just a hit? Mess with armoured formations? It will even stack up a decent amount of casualities against clumped MEQ.

It even gives you a 3+ ruin, place an objective in a ruin, fortify it and put a couple of combat-squads in it, and your opponent can't hope to remove them with shooting

The thunderfire is versatile, killy and cheap. Sure it's a glass cannon, but proper deployment, 3+ coversave and it's long range can be used to keep it out of harms way.

A note on the Thunderfire Cannon: Space Marine Techmarines are Independent Characters. Buy one as an Elites choice and use it to stiffen up a Thunderfire Cannon battery.

The Thunderfire Cannon, while vulnerable, can compensate for much of its defensive weakness through the use of (often 3+) cover and smart deployment. 60" range lets you avoid many enemy sniping units while still being in range of them, and even if the TFC is destroyed, you can usually avoid giving up a KP through smart play with your Techmarine Gunner. I usually field two TFCs in 2,000 points, and they've almost always served admirably.

And most dont remember that it cause pinning -1 as it is indirect fire... Thats a huge plus. I have pinned all kinds of units including marines!!!


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Oh and the thunderfire cannon is garbage. I shoot it first turn I see it and game over lol.

theblessing8386 wrote:And most dont remember that it cause pinning -1 as it is indirect fire... Thats a huge plus. I have pinned all kinds of units including marines!!!


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Oh and the thunderfire cannon is garbage. I shoot it first turn I see it and game over lol.

+1. I've taken out TFC's using the big shootas in my gang of slugga boyz.


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Tri wrote:Don't agree that the dakka predator is the way to go but then I'm not a massive fan of any of the heavy support options. Whirl wind has some nice perks VS hordes. Like most things you don't miss it until you need it.

//Warning Maths//
Predator with auto cannon and two heavy bolters only kicks out 8 shots of those 1/3 miss even against IG one will fail to wound and with 4+ cover we're looking at 2 dead ^_^ (exact odds are 10/36)

I can do basic probabilities, thanks. By the way, "if your enemy's not in cover" were my exact words.

4 kills will almost make your points back against a tolerable number of units - AP 4 is still vastly superior to AP 5, as it gives you kill power over most eldar (by most I mean fire dragons ) and a good portion of mid-tier nids (warriors, genestealers, raveners, etc.). A Whirlwind, on the other hand, has a good chance of missing altogether, which isn't fun for anybody, and even on a direct hit will rarely cover more than six models (at least at my FLGS, people spread out their units). And the TFC is, as I said, easily disposed of with minimal firepower. The dakka predator, while far from perfect, is going to be much tougher, and about as killy.

Then again, I rarely use my HS choices for anti-infantry weaponry, so I'd actually be going with a Vindicator if it were my army.

I'm not sure if people who talk about easily killing TFCs have played with people who deploy them correctly; in my experience they generally take nontrivial amounts of firepower to kill and can't easily be engaged by the enemy-- further, only one or two attacks from the cannon will let it earn its points back. Whirlwinds are even better, as on a table with proper terrain you can deploy them entirely out of line of sight and be immune to the vast majority of shooting attacks.

Whats basically being said is that a whirlwind does wonders against horde armies and has its occasionl good hits against mech units, with that being said i would definently use winds against orks, nids, footslogging guard, tau gunlines, etc.. and then vindicators against everything else

Two vindicators and a whirlwind seem like a very balanced setup if you get long range anti tank elsewhere which is easy for codex marines

minigun762 wrote:Two vindicators and a whirlwind seem like a very balanced setup if you get long range anti tank elsewhere which is easy for codex marines

+1. I've been running a core of an autocannon/lascannon predator, a vindicator and a whirlwind for the past few months and its served admirably. I used to run a TFC instead of the whirlwind but found I really like the -1 LD pinning test against the mechanized MEQ armies I encounter most often. It might not seem like much, but when you pin a BA, SW or BT squad for a turn after their vehicle is wrecked it makes a huge difference in the game for a measly 85 points.

I have had great success with a whirlwind. Yes, I use them for hoards but they also work well on just deployed troops out of a vehicle. And the pinning at -1 LD can help out alot. I try to hide it behind terrain. If I end up going against an army that the whirlwind is almost useless against then I will use it to provide cover for other tanks.

I've tried to use 2 or 3 in a list but 1 seems the best fit. It becomes very difficult to hide 3 tanks completely out of LOS.

I kinda miss its mine laying ability back in 4th. Great at forcing squishy troops to choose where to go

notabot187 wrote:
You know what both units have in common? They are both god awful.

My sentiments exactly. The whirlwind is one of those units that are in the codex just because they were in previous codex's. The wost thing about it is the ammount of wounds it will inflict on a hoard on average. I dont know about you but hoard players I go against aren't stupid and will spread out thier hoards to max coherency so even if I use a pie plate im only hitting like 3-8 dudes in a 10-30 man blob and only wounding maybe 1-4 of them and thats only if it doesnt whiff completely. You know who usually wounds a few more dudes, costs the same, can harm transports/MC's, doesn't fold when a weapon gets shot off and laughs at auto-cannons... Allow me to humbly present to you! The dakka pred.

Oh and the TFC has no redeeming qualities. And before you insert X quote about how your buddy uses it in his army and slays everyone tell your buddy to stop playing little kids who just put together their first battleforce.

cromwest wrote:

notabot187 wrote:
You know what both units have in common? They are both god awful.

My sentiments exactly. The whirlwind is one of those units that are in the codex just because they were in previous codex's. The wost thing about it is the ammount of wounds it will inflict on a hoard on average. I dont know about you but hoard players I go against aren't stupid and will spread out thier hoards to max coherency so even if I use a pie plate im only hitting like 3-8 dudes in a 10-30 man blob and only wounding maybe 1-4 of them and thats only if it doesnt whiff completely. You know who usually wounds a few more dudes, costs the same, can harm transports/MC's, doesn't fold when a weapon gets shot off and laughs at auto-cannons... Allow me to humbly present to you! The dakka pred.

The dakka predator is no better then the whirlwind against IG its 8 shots will cause 4 wounds if they are not in cover (20/36) put them in cover and that drops quickly if they get a 4+ (easy) then 2 wounds. Against MEQ your looking at 32/216 (HB) & 40/216 (AC) so you'll average 1 wound.

Back to the Whirlwind there are many ways to force the enemy to blob up.
1) tank charge. Sure the template may scatter over you're tank oh but who cares its not really going to hurt.
2) Vs orks you'll often find that the ork play will charge a vehicle simply because he hasn't any other way of dealing with it. Even if he manages to destroy it he's still bunched up; just move your vehical (or transported marines) away and drop a pie plate on them.
3) Destroyed/wreked Vehicles. They're all ether in its foot print or within 2" of an access point.
4) first turn. Big army its nearly impossible to spread out fully.

Oh and the TFC has no redeeming qualities. And before you insert X quote about how your buddy uses it in his army and slays everyone tell your buddy to stop playing little kids who just put together their first battleforce.

TFC can be very effective the trouble it is a glass hammer and any one that's been shot by it knows that its worth removing early.


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MekanobSamael wrote:I can do basic probabilities, thanks. By the way, "if your enemy's not in cover" were my exact words.

4th ed you can get away with that but 5th come on there's cover every where hell most armies can now bring there own with them. (also if your shooting fire dragons then they've just removed one of your tanks so may well have a cover save)

4 kills will almost make your points back against a tolerable number of units - AP 4 is still vastly superior to AP 5, as it gives you kill power over most eldar (by most I mean fire dragons ) and a good portion of mid-tier nids (warriors, genestealers, raveners, etc.). A Whirlwind, on the other hand, has a good chance of missing altogether, which isn't fun for anybody, and even on a direct hit will rarely cover more than six models (at least at my FLGS, people spread out their units). And the TFC is, as I said, easily disposed of with minimal firepower. The dakka predator, while far from perfect, is going to be much tougher, and about as killy.

Then again, I rarely use my HS choices for anti-infantry weaponry, so I'd actually be going with a Vindicator if it were my army.

Well that i can agree.

cromwest wrote:

notabot187 wrote:
You know what both units have in common? They are both god awful.

My sentiments exactly. The whirlwind is one of those units that are in the codex just because they were in previous codex's. The wost thing about it is the ammount of wounds it will inflict on a hoard on average. I dont know about you but hoard players I go against aren't stupid and will spread out thier hoards to max coherency so even if I use a pie plate im only hitting like 3-8 dudes in a 10-30 man blob and only wounding maybe 1-4 of them and thats only if it doesnt whiff completely. You know who usually wounds a few more dudes, costs the same, can harm transports/MC's, doesn't fold when a weapon gets shot off and laughs at auto-cannons... Allow me to humbly present to you! The dakka pred.

Oh and the TFC has no redeeming qualities. And before you insert X quote about how your buddy uses it in his army and slays everyone tell your buddy to stop playing little kids who just put together their first battleforce.

the TFC is NOT worthless.

it has 2 problems, it competes for HS slots(and so at high point games it gets passed over and rightfully so) and it is fragile.

however it is DIRT CHEAP. meaning it is very good at low point games. as a bonus you get a Techmarine(including his Bolster rule) with full servo harness.