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I'm not sure if this is an inconsistency on the part of GW, or just my own oversight.

Models embarked in a vehicle that moved at cruising speed cannot fire.

Unless they disembark?

MekanobSamael wrote:I'm not sure if this is an inconsistency on the part of GW, or just my own oversight.

Models embarked in a vehicle that moved at cruising speed cannot fire.

Unless they disembark?

Correct.

It's called "Intentional Game Balance".

Sort of related question:

Can burna boys fire out of a battlewagon thats moved 6 even though they are using template weapons?

liam0404 wrote:Sort of related question:

Can burna boys fire out of a battlewagon thats moved 6 even though they are using template weapons?

Yes.

Why would they not be able to?

If they couldn't, DashofPepper would have a LOT of angry opponents! That really is the sole reason anyone takes burnas!

Yeah the thought of 15 x (insert number of covered models) here is a frightning thought. My ork partner in a 2 vs 2 tonight did it, and I thought "i'm glad im not on the receiving end of that!".

I just wasn't sure because of all the issues with your own templates touching your model - but since it's open topped you can pick any point on the hull to start the template from can't you?

liam0404 wrote:Yeah the thought of 15 x (insert number of covered models) here is a frightning thought. My ork partner in a 2 vs 2 tonight did it, and I thought "i'm glad im not on the receiving end of that!".

I just wasn't sure because of all the issues with your own templates touching your model - but since it's open topped you can pick any point on the hull to start the template from can't you?

Correct. Open topped vehicles can legally fire Templates from passengers. It's models like Chimeras and Rhinos that have problems.

I disagree with you there Gwar!.

According to p. 66, 3rd paragraph under Fire Points, any unit that has moved with a vehicle at cruising speed may NOT fire, that turn.

Where does it say that this rule is canceled, due to disembarking?

Ex. A Transport moves 9", cruising speed, no-one embarked on the vehicle may shoot.
Instead they disembark, but STILL they've been onboard of a vehicle that has moved at cruising speed, and therefore shouldn't be able to shot.

Perhaps I've missed some rule somewhere, and would be happy if you, or anyone else, could direct me to the page where it says that firing after having moved at cruising speed is ok.

Alienfood wrote:I disagree with you there Gwar!.

According to p. 66, 3rd paragraph under Fire Points, any unit that has moved with a vehicle at cruising speed may NOT fire, that turn.

Where does it say that this rule is canceled, due to disembarking?

Ex. A Transport moves 9", cruising speed, no-one embarked on the vehicle may shoot.
Instead they disembark, but STILL they've been onboard of a vehicle that has moved at cruising speed, and therefore shouldn't be able to shot.

Perhaps I've missed some rule somewhere, and would be happy if you, or anyone else, could direct me to the page where it says that firing after having moved at cruising speed is ok.

What, you mean the bit under "Fire Points" that details models firing from "Fire Points" and not firing from not-"Fire Points"?

You have permission to fire from the Shooting Rules.

You Disembark, so you count as having moved.

You are not firing from a Fire Point, so those rules are not taken into consideration.

I know it stands under "Fire Points", but the sentence "..may not fire AT ALL if the vehicle moved at cruising speed that turn." made me think that this rule still applies even if they disembark, since it's still the same turn, and they have been aboard a vehicle that moved at cruising speed.

Alienfood wrote:I know it stands under "Fire Points", but the sentence "..may not fire AT ALL if the vehicle moved at cruising speed that turn." made me think that this rule still applies even if they disembark, since it's still the same turn, and they have been aboard a vehicle that moved at cruising speed.

But the first part of that sentence is, "Models firing from a vehicle..." and once you have disembarked you are no longer firing from the vehicle.
You therefore have to go by the "Disembarking" section on the following page that says the models may shoot (counting as moving) but may not assault.
This also applies to transports that arrive via deep strike. The vehicles count as moving at cruising speed, and when they arrive, the passengers cannot move (other than to disembark) but in the Shooting phase, they are free to fire (or run) as normal but obviously count as having moved (BRB page 95 q.v.)

Ive had 15 burna's shoot at a squad of 7 plague marines of mine, did about 60 hits in total, not a single wound! hah go plague marines!
But yeah if you disembark a transport after it moves at cruising speed you can still fire, but to my knowlege only if its a weapon that can be fired after moving (rapid firing bolters etc).

time wizard wrote:

Alienfood wrote:I know it stands under "Fire Points", but the sentence "..may not fire AT ALL if the vehicle moved at cruising speed that turn." made me think that this rule still applies even if they disembark, since it's still the same turn, and they have been aboard a vehicle that moved at cruising speed.

But the first part of that sentence is, "Models firing from a vehicle..." and once you have disembarked you are no longer firing from the vehicle.
You therefore have to go by the "Disembarking" section on the following page that says the models may shoot (counting as moving) but may not assault.
This also applies to transports that arrive via deep strike. The vehicles count as moving at cruising speed, and when they arrive, the passengers cannot move (other than to disembark) but in the Shooting phase, they are free to fire (or run) as normal but obviously count as having moved (BRB page 95 q.v.)

Agreed :-p Otherwise, drop podding shooty termies are useless lol.

Gwar! wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Yeah the thought of 15 x (insert number of covered models) here is a frightning thought. My ork partner in a 2 vs 2 tonight did it, and I thought "i'm glad im not on the receiving end of that!".

I just wasn't sure because of all the issues with your own templates touching your model - but since it's open topped you can pick any point on the hull to start the template from can't you?

Correct. Open topped vehicles can legally fire Templates from passengers. It's models like Chimeras and Rhinos that have problems.

Damn... Didn't know that... No rhino flaming? My frend is gonna be so pissed I drive to his green tide at 750pts with rhinos and burn combi-flamer and flamer from one rhino and avanger and other flamer from other rhino... One boyz die... Then he assaults rhinos with 2 remaining squads and destroys them (usually explodes so more dead boyz ) and then I repeat flaming process... He's gonna kill me

Chinchilla wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Yeah the thought of 15 x (insert number of covered models) here is a frightning thought. My ork partner in a 2 vs 2 tonight did it, and I thought "i'm glad im not on the receiving end of that!".

I just wasn't sure because of all the issues with your own templates touching your model - but since it's open topped you can pick any point on the hull to start the template from can't you?

Correct. Open topped vehicles can legally fire Templates from passengers. It's models like Chimeras and Rhinos that have problems.

Damn... Didn't know that... No rhino flaming? My frend is gonna be so pissed I drive to his green tide at 750pts with rhinos and burn combi-flamer and flamer from one rhino and avanger and other flamer from other rhino... One boyz die... Then he assaults rhinos with 2 remaining squads and destroys them (usually explodes so more dead boyz ) and then I repeat flaming process... He's gonna kill me

Heh, it is only a "thought experiment", "silly RaW" or (as is it know in these parts), "That Fella Gwar! being a huge dick for following the rules."

Most people play it (for some reason, I honestly did not see any problem with not being able to fire them since that is what the rules say till I came to Dakka) that you can fire from Chimeras/Rhinos etc.

So is it RaW as "Turret mounted heavy flamers cannot be used, as their template will target a friendly model (the tank hull)" or would people mind it on tournament?

Chinchilla wrote:So is it RaW as "Turret mounted heavy flamers cannot be used, as their template will target a friendly model (the tank hull)" or would people mind it on tournament?

Not all Turret Flamers are unable to fire, as some Jutt out quite a bit if you turn them sideways.

But yes, some cannot fire, RaW.

Gwar! wrote:

Chinchilla wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Yeah the thought of 15 x (insert number of covered models) here is a frightning thought. My ork partner in a 2 vs 2 tonight did it, and I thought "i'm glad im not on the receiving end of that!".

I just wasn't sure because of all the issues with your own templates touching your model - but since it's open topped you can pick any point on the hull to start the template from can't you?

Correct. Open topped vehicles can legally fire Templates from passengers. It's models like Chimeras and Rhinos that have problems.

Damn... Didn't know that... No rhino flaming? My frend is gonna be so pissed I drive to his green tide at 750pts with rhinos and burn combi-flamer and flamer from one rhino and avanger and other flamer from other rhino... One boyz die... Then he assaults rhinos with 2 remaining squads and destroys them (usually explodes so more dead boyz ) and then I repeat flaming process... He's gonna kill me

Heh, it is only a "thought experiment", "silly RaW" or (as is it know in these parts), "That Fella Gwar! being a huge dick for following the rules."

Most people play it (for some reason, I honestly did not see any problem with not being able to fire them since that is what the rules say till I came to Dakka) that you can fire from Chimeras/Rhinos etc.

Of course, the whole discussion is moot (the american kind) given that no model can fire a flamer because in doing so, the flame template touches the firing model, breaching the rules which stipulate you must not touch any friendly models.

Drunkspleen wrote:Of course, the whole discussion is moot (the american kind) given that no model can fire a flamer because in doing so, the flame template touches the firing model, breaching the rules which stipulate you must not touch any friendly models.

Ah, but that is where you are incorrect good sir!

If I may direct you to page Twenty-Nine of the Main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook (commonly known as the "BRB" or "BGB"), which is found within the Chapter entitled "Weapons".

Within the aforementioned chapter, there are several Headers and Sub-headers. The sub-header currently of interest, entitled "Template", resides on page Twenty-Nine underneath the header entitled "Additional Weapon Characteristics".

Here, you will find that the rules instruct you to "place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models."

As I am sure you can appreciate kind intoxicated remover of old red blood cells, there are, in fact, two rules in effect here, as evidenced by the conjunction "and", which links together two separate sentences.

The first instructs one to "place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it", while the second requires "the rest of the template [to cover] as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models."

I am sure you can agree that the first rule is, as a matter of fact, more specific than the second, as it takes into account only a single model that is firing a weapon for which the Template rules are applicable rather than the multitude of models that could be considered "friendly".

As such, you are permitted to place the Template touching the firing model, as you are given special dispensation to do so!

Furthermore, notice that the wording is indeed different when it comes to who is actually hit. Only models "fully or partially under the template are hit", not models touched. As such, the firing model will not be hit by his own weapon. I mention this as it is common misconception when debating these rules in the manner for which I am known.

I thought you could fire your flamer from a rhino? ;(

mattyrm wrote:I thought you could fire your flamer from a rhino? ;(

Sadly, you cannot, RaW.

Well, you can declare that you're firing it - there's no prohibition on that.

But then you have to find a way of placing the template where it's touching the firepoint (hatch) but not covering any of the rhino.

Okay lets be clear though on this.

The rules technically prohibit you from firing a flamer from a fire point on some vehicles. They also technically stop some vehicles (like an Immolator) from firing.

However, almost everyone plays it that you can shoot from these hatches and assumes it is an unintentional rules oversight. So be mindful when you try to pull this one on people firing out of vehicles.

I once had a guy nearly jump over the table at me when I told him that, strictly speaking, his Baal predators could not fire their template weapons, but that we'd house-rule it so that they could. Apparently following the rules is a touchy subject?

Also, beware teenage Sparkle Mehreens players.

SaintHazard wrote:... I told him that, strictly speaking, his Baal predators could not fire their template weapons, but that we'd house-rule it so that they could. Apparently following the rules is a touchy subject?

Let's talk about this situation for a moment. Considering the Baal Predator with template weapons (a legal choice in the vehicle rules) is violating the template weapon rules as laid out in the core rules in the book, when we encounter an opponent using them do we:

A: Use this position to rub the persons' nose in crap. Tell our opponent they are cheating, but we will let them.
B: Think GW unintentionally created an conflicting situation and understand the intention of the Codex author to allow the template weapon to fire.

Personally, I'll go with "B". You can arugue "A" all day long and while technically you'd be right, you'd also still be a dick. Not calling anyone in particular here a dick, just saying in my opinion this is a dick move.

But am I wrong?

No, you are right, but for the sake of being a dick.

You "letting" him play the way that the game designers so very obviously designed the weapon to work is not being a RAW advocate or a RAW purists, it is being a smug RAW dick.

Brother Ramses wrote:No, you are right

Well alright then.

SaintHazard wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:No, you are right

Well alright then.

Huzzah! Brother Ramses finally admits the people playing by the rules are, shockingly, in the right when it comes to playing by the rules!

And no, we don't do it "for the sake of being a dick", we do it for the sake of following the rules.

Would you call your opponent a dick when playing chess if he refused to let your pawns move 5 spaces a turn?

Bad example Gwar, the creators of chess never intended you to be able to move 5 spaces a turn!

Now ladies, lets be realistic here. Sure, it happens to be a funny little niche in the rules, but applying it in game? Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

Your line, Hazard, "We house ruled it" is quite hard to come to terms with! You had to have a formal agreement to allow his unit to fire because strictly speaking and total rules lawyeringly he could not? save for the fact that a Baal predator can infact fire all of its templates legally (if the turret is facing forward, the template never goes over the turret or hull, it starts at the front)?

Without meaning to tell you what to do, wouldnt it be a good idea to say when your stating RAW and stating how its meant to be played / how you play? Not letting someone fire their flamer out of a rhino is TFG WAAC OMGWTFBBQ!

That is a Baal predator.

Its turret template weapon is fired, like all vehicle weapons, from the barrel of the gun. Therefore, placing the template at the tip of the barrel of the gun, when the turret is facing forward, places the template illegally over a friendly model.

I have no problem house-ruling this so that it can be legally done. It's not unreasonable to assume that the designer intended that weapon to be able to fire. It's not often you pay for weapons that aren't supposed to be used. However, we must recognize that that's all this is: a house rule.

You're not "TFG" if you don't want your opponent to be illegally placing his templates... but if you have a Baal predator, and you want to be able to fire that weapon, don't you? So ask your opponent if he's alright with a house rule that allows you to use that weapon you paid for, modeled, paid in points for, and want to field.

From a practical standpoint, asking your opponent if you can legally fire your template weapon on your Baal predator is almost never going to end with him/her saying no.

From a strict RAW standpoint, the template weapon cannot be legally fired.