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I'm chatting with sculptors about getting some models done for my game. Just curious... using a cadian model for example... if the separate pieces (body, head, legs & arms) were all done with just metals, would you hate having to put them together? would you feel like you have to pin every little piece? It seems most metal models are one big piece maybe with just separate arms. Would you like building multi part metal models or does that really only work for plastics?

I love the multi part model thing for making the figures all look unique, but I can't afford to have plastics produced. Would it suck to have to build a whole squad out of all little metal pieces?

I like multipart metal when they have the triangle or diamond shaped contact points where they kind of "lock" into place. See Sternguard or Vanguard Vets for example.

Depends on the model. If you're wanting to do something along the lines of GW's sprues, where you have an inane amount of options, probably not. You'd be pushing up the cost, and I'd really rather have one great sculpt than half a dozen mediocre options.

If it's the best way to cut up the model though, go for it. This works with a lot of the more spindly models, such as elves and the like.

Well the current plan is to have a pack of "henchmen" for your gang. It will come with 4 different torsos & heads, 4 different legs, and 6-8 different pairs of arms on a little sprue, so that people could equip their gang members however they like.

The idea being, the arm sprues could be used for other releases, the bodies & arms could be reused for models on horseback where I'd just need to get horses and horse rider legs done, stuff like that.

I know I want to be able to offer the different arms, so I guess the real question is, would it be worth doing the separate bodies like that or would folks prefer a single whole body?

I was planning 1 gang leader for each faction, and then they'd both use the same henchmen pack. So, the latter would probably mean having more sculpts done (and more sculpting costs) to give each faction 5 unique models to start with.

The easier the better when it comes to metal models. Multi part metal models means a complete and utter pain in the arse. Pinning, not quite getting it 100% spot on, filla glue or GS for the gaps, metal flexes means paint peeling and cracking etc.
Metal is definately for either fearless modellers (but that means little in the way of sales) or for small parts count.

I am sure some would enjoy the modelling but metal has few things going for it escpecially when you consider that with plastic you can do almost anything you like.

Rackham had some brilliant multipart regiment boxes, its good if you want to make lots of models with just some bitz but if your game is skirmish with jsut a few models then you dont need many multipart kits.

Design wise both are very interesting.

You could also argue that with a small skirmish game you're not going to mind pinning/filling gaps on a handful of models.

I have no problem with multi-part metals. I would prefer some kind of ball/socket that allows you to just glue arms etc on if you want to but also allows poseability.

Referencing the Rackham regiment boxes the arm connection doesn't have to be at the shoulder either.

Basically what I want to do if I go with the multi parts is start off with 3 products. Lawman leader model (sheriff), outlaw leader model, and then a pack of 4 henchmen. So the starter pack will consist of 1 leader and the henchmen. Since in the old west the only real difference between how an outlaw and a deputy looks was a tin badge on their coat, I figured the henchmen models would work well for both factions as far as starter kits go. After that, other releases for each faction would be full models. And since you can swap the bitz all around, you can come up with more unique models, and even if people already have a gang set up they might want the henchmen kit to bulk up their gang too.

If I went with whole bodies, I would probably want 4 different henchmen for each faction to start with, since there would be less customization aside from arm and weapon swaps. So that would mean more models needing to be sculpted (10 bodies vs 6 altogether), and more costs.

And anyway, I'd be planning to release a couple new models every month or so, this multi part kit idea is really just for starting a new gang. I just wouldn't want to produce something that people are gonna end up hating because metal is a pain to work with sometimes.

multi part metal is fine, but you should consider the posing... most multi part customizable figures look slightly "off" as compared to a single part figures which are sculpted to a single pose.

That said, I certainly would prefer it.

We definitly prefer multipart models, which is why all of the Brushfire models are multipart. We want to encourage people to customize their models, which is much easier with a multipart model

I really dislike putting together metal models, but the quality of the models are much better in metal than plastic, so it's a trade off.

It really comes down to how many I have to assemble.

If its a skirmish game of less then 10 models then I don't mind it. If it goes much above that then its a pain.

The thing about metal models is that, you dont usually need to provide that many different scultps as there are very few of them that are needed or there tends to be alot more conversion done on metal models.

I would dispute the claim that conversions are more prevalent with metal. Using plastic is muc, much easier.

Plastic is easier to cut, easier to glue, paint won't flake off plastic, GS sticks better to plastic although there is little in it. Plastic can be posed, bent, shaped, bits added quite easily with a strong bond as the plastic is welded together with the glue. Metal has few things going for it when conversions are being considered.

Elmodiddly wrote:I would dispute the claim that conversions are more prevalent with metal. Using plastic is muc, much easier.

Plastic is easier to cut, easier to glue, paint won't flake off plastic, GS sticks better to plastic although there is little in it. Plastic can be posed, bent, shaped, bits added quite easily with a strong bond as the plastic is welded together with the glue. Metal has few things going for it when conversions are being considered.

He didn't mean it was easier, he meant you can make less sculpts, as the unit is generally one model or few models, and people often convert them (green stuff, re-pinning arms/legs) as they are centerpieces moreso than plastic models (generally).

For skirmish level a couple of unique bodies and a few arm/head/weapons options are all that are needed to avoid 'sameiness'.

Metals work just fine for this. Never had a any issues with metal soldiers before the advent of multipart plastics and don't have any now.

Pinning shouldn't ever be an issue for infantry sized minis.

Metals are fine as long as the parts are not fiddly and have good sockets / pins for attaching the limbs and whatnot.

They don't even need sockets, just flush fitting parts so the maximum amount of space is available for adhesion.

If Im understanding what your going for...a Necromunda styled game w an old west setting...then multi part metal would be fine. Sure metal is more of a pain that plastic, but if you only have to do a few of them to play the game then its fine.

As stated simply make sure the joint areas are good and even, and pinning should be completely unnecessary in models that size.


Any details on the game yet? An old west skirmish/gang game sounds quite interesting...

Yep that is pretty much what the game is, necromunda in the old west. Rules are a bit different but the idea is similar.

I'll stick with the metals idea. I just wanted some opinions but I think it will be good for allowing folks a lot of options right off the bat and all me to not get as much sculpted to keep my costs down at first. I'm intending to release a couple new models a month also once I get started, so later on there will be alternatives for folks that don't want the mult parts, but they'll always be there for the starter packs of folks that want to bulk up their forces quicker and a little cheaper.

anyway I have playtest rules for the game on my website at http://www.blackwatergulch.com

I'm about to finish the next version with lots of new stuff sometime this week

Necros wrote:I'm chatting with sculptors about getting some models done for my game. Just curious... using a cadian model for example... if the separate pieces (body, head, legs & arms) were all done with just metals, would you hate having to put them together? would you feel like you have to pin every little piece? It seems most metal models are one big piece maybe with just separate arms. Would you like building multi part metal models or does that really only work for plastics?

I love the multi part model thing for making the figures all look unique, but I can't afford to have plastics produced. Would it suck to have to build a whole squad out of all little metal pieces?

You wouldn't need to pin them at all just make sure the sculptor makes a little bit on the end of each piece that fits into the main body of the model. Easy to do and makes assembling them much easier and strengthens the join as if it was pinned.

I do prefer plastic models over metal, it does depend on what kind of metal you use. I find the the stuff GW uses breaks if you look at it too hard and chips very easily, someone mentioned rackham models and I have had a lot better time with them as the paint sticks better. That said, you can get a lot of detail into metal and it makes great characters.

Necros wrote:Yep that is pretty much what the game is, necromunda in the old west. Rules are a bit different but the idea is similar.

I'll stick with the metals idea. I just wanted some opinions but I think it will be good for allowing folks a lot of options right off the bat and all me to not get as much sculpted to keep my costs down at first. I'm intending to release a couple new models a month also once I get started, so later on there will be alternatives for folks that don't want the mult parts, but they'll always be there for the starter packs of folks that want to bulk up their forces quicker and a little cheaper.

anyway I have playtest rules for the game on my website at http://www.blackwatergulch.com

I'm about to finish the next version with lots of new stuff sometime this week

Awesome, Ill be keeping an eye on this.

Why not go for resin models kits? Would be cheaper all round to produce than metal and it can retain a similar amount of detail.

Plus it is a bit nice than metal to put together.

Okay, think about this.

A metal cadian would be:
10 different metal torso and leg combos (imagine just sticking those two pieces together, that's it.)
15 or so heads
9 lasguns (both arms are attached to the lasgun and easily fit on the model)
A couple sargeant weapons.

As opposed to having a plastic kit 'metalified', I'd prefer the former. I don't want all of the options. Just a couple different poses, already set.


But cadians are a bad example. They have too many pieces in the first place...Just make both of those arms attached to the damn gun

Winter wrote:Why not go for resin models kits? Would be cheaper all round to produce than metal and it can retain a similar amount of detail.

Plus it is a bit nice than metal to put together.

I like resin least of all. The quality can be sketchy...some casts come out good, some have bubbles and voids, etc. Theres also the issue of bent parts. It is also a big pain if you want to do conversions...mostly because it is brittle.


Id say keep with the metal idea.

Yeah I don't wanna do resin. Not for the minis anyway. I am planning to do some resin things though that I can cast myself, mostly scenery items. The figures though I want to be the bestest around.

The multiple arms will be all different kinds. hand weapons and hand guns will be single separate right or left arms, then there will be arm combos for shotguns and rifles. Though they may end up being 2 pieces as well. I'm going to have the sculptor make them without the left hand molded onto the gun. that's one thing I hate about a lot of GW stuff. And there will also be a separate gun sprue that's just guns, so if you want one kind of arm with a different gun you can just snip it off and glue on the new one. The sculptor is doing the gun sprue for free, just so that he doesn't have to sculpt the same guns over and over and over.

For the production I have a pretty well known company that I'll most likely be going with but I dunno if I can say just to be safe, since nothing is in writing yet.

It'll be a quality product in the end, cuz I don't wanna sell something I know I wouldn't wanna buy myself.

Resin is also not very profitable in longer runs.

Necros wrote:Yeah I don't wanna do resin. Not for the minis anyway. I am planning to do some resin things though that I can cast myself, mostly scenery items. The figures though I want to be the bestest around.

The multiple arms will be all different kinds. hand weapons and hand guns will be single separate right or left arms, then there will be arm combos for shotguns and rifles. Though they may end up being 2 pieces as well. I'm going to have the sculptor make them without the left hand molded onto the gun. that's one thing I hate about a lot of GW stuff. And there will also be a separate gun sprue that's just guns, so if you want one kind of arm with a different gun you can just snip it off and glue on the new one. The sculptor is doing the gun sprue for free, just so that he doesn't have to sculpt the same guns over and over and over.

For the production I have a pretty well known company that I'll most likely be going with but I dunno if I can say just to be safe, since nothing is in writing yet.

It'll be a quality product in the end, cuz I don't wanna sell something I know I wouldn't wanna buy myself.

Sounds good. Resin is cool for scenery or big items. I like the way your going with the guns too...I hate the IG infantry w the hand stuck to the gun. Makes it a pain if you want to make a model holding a gun gun handed.

Necros wrote:Would it suck to have to build a whole squad out of all little metal pieces?

Yep.

And without pinning they'd be 10x more fragile.

I hate metal figures and metal / plastic hybrid figures with a passion. Superglued fingers, having to hold joints in place for ages to obtain a bond, frustrating kits to build, pinning / drilling, the list is endless.

I have lost count of the times I have lost my temper with kits (the god awful LRC hurricane bolters spring to mind - that got launched at the wall first time around believe me), lost count of the times I have patiently glued a model together, sat holding it waiting for it to bond, placing it reverently somewhere safe for it to dry only to step back and watch as the arm / leg / wing / gun falls off.

Not sure why with the level of plastic moulding tech metal is still being used. Surely plastic is cheaper and therefore profit per kit is greater? You have to produce moulds and tools for both - albeit the casting method is different - but for companies like GW who have already outlaid for the injection moulding tech, why the hell are they still using metal?