Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ran into this in a tournament the other day, the judge agrees with me but its still a point of contention that I havent found an answer for.
When you cast a boosted RIP spell, Transformation of Kadon for instance, do you dispel on the modified casting value in subsequent turns or the actual minimum of the unmodified spell?
The BRB states the phrase "minimum casting value" but there's a case to argue this both ways. I say its the original minimum, since that is the minimum to cast the actual spell, even if the spells effects have been boosted.

If the cast needs 18 to cast the spell then the spell is dispelled on a 18+, if it is upgraded to the larger effect that needs say 20+ to cast then it will also need 20+ to dispell
It is the casting spells minimum casting value and if they note that they are trying to cast the 20+ version then they have stated what spell they want to cast and it's minimum value, which is 20+
Is that what you are talking about?

Think about it in the terms of Fireball: you pick the 18+ and the opponents lvl 2 would only need to roll 4 to dispell it at the minimum casting value of 5+? That would be beyond ridiculous lol.

syanticraven wrote:Think about it in the terms of Fireball: you pick the 18+ and the opponents lvl 2 would only need to roll 4 to dispell it at the minimum casting value of 5+? That would be beyond ridiculous lol.

Worst example ever, as we're talkin RIP dispelling wich is different to everything else.
That being said, if you use the "boosted Transformation of Kadon"(20+), then it is later dispelled with the minimum casting value for a that, not the one for "Transformation of Kadon"(16+).
(Quotes added to better show what i mean.)

HoverBoy wrote:

syanticraven wrote:Think about it in the terms of Fireball: you pick the 18+ and the opponents lvl 2 would only need to roll 4 to dispell it at the minimum casting value of 5+? That would be beyond ridiculous lol.

Worst example ever, as we're talkin RIP dispelling wich is different to everything else.
That being said, if you use the "boosted Transformation of Kadon"(20+), then it is later dispelled with the minimum casting value for a that, not the one for "Transformation of Kadon"(16+).
(Quotes added to better show what i mean.)

"I said is that what you are talking about?" implying that I was unsure what he said so my example may not fit the situation if I got it wrong. My ruling was still correct however.
As a remain in play spell is the same to dispell as any other spell except that it can be done every turn after it has been successfully cast and is not dispelled to equal or more then the casters roll but on the minimum casting value. Which the OP already knows.


Edit: fething spelling.

HoverBoy wrote:

syanticraven wrote:Think about it in the terms of Fireball: you pick the 18+ and the opponents lvl 2 would only need to roll 4 to dispell it at the minimum casting value of 5+? That would be beyond ridiculous lol.

Worst example ever, as we're talkin RIP dispelling wich is different to everything else.
That being said, if you use the "boosted Transformation of Kadon"(20+), then it is later dispelled with the minimum casting value for a that, not the one for "Transformation of Kadon"(16+).
(Quotes added to better show what i mean.)

RIP spells only require the basic casting level to dispel as per pg 36. There is no such spell as a "Boosted Transformation of Kadon". It is Transformation of Kadon, which would need a 16+.

Davall wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:

syanticraven wrote:Think about it in the terms of Fireball: you pick the 18+ and the opponents lvl 2 would only need to roll 4 to dispell it at the minimum casting value of 5+? That would be beyond ridiculous lol.

Worst example ever, as we're talkin RIP dispelling wich is different to everything else.
That being said, if you use the "boosted Transformation of Kadon"(20+), then it is later dispelled with the minimum casting value for a that, not the one for "Transformation of Kadon"(16+).
(Quotes added to better show what i mean.)

RIP spells only require the basic casting level to dispel as per pg 36. There is no such spell as a "Boosted Transformation of Kadon". It is Transformation of Kadon, which would need a 16+.

"Remain In Play spells do not retain the energy to their casting, and so a wizard does not need to beat the original casting dice roll if attempting to dispel in subsequent turns, but rather the minimum casting value listed in the spells description. (so there is no need to make note of each spells casting roll)."

Not the basic casting level. The minimum casting level of said spell and if you pick said spell with minimum cost of 20+ to cast the spell (which is noted in the spells description) then it requires 20+ to dispel it. The Upper levels of spells count as having a minimum dispel as their casting value. As they take more power to cast therefore more power to dispel.

If a wizard picks to cast the second (boosted) version of the spell you cannot pick to dispel the first version as it has not actually been cast.

ya, that's the thing; there's a minimum casting value to a boosted spell and then there's the actual minimum to the spell itself. According to the section on dispelling RIP, the minimum is used because much of the spells potency is faded after the initial casting. But that's not exactly conclusive.

Leith wrote:ya, that's the thing; there's a minimum casting value to a boosted spell and then there's the actual minimum to the spell itself. According to the section on dispelling RIP, the minimum is used because much of the spells potency is faded after the initial casting. But that's not exactly conclusive.

Well it says "Remain In Play spells do not retain the energy to their casting, and so a wizard does not need to beat the original casting dice roll if attempting to dispel in subsequent turns...(so there is no need to make note of each spells casting roll)."
I.e. if you roll 4 dice and get 24 to cast (and lets say you are a level 4) that is an overall casting value of 28 but due to the rule I posted above, the extra score is ignored and is reset to the spells (the spell that was cast) minimum casting value. Which would reset it back to 20, THE spell that was casts minimum casting value was 20+ not 16+.

If it helps think of it this way if the Spells potency had indeed faded the next turn then the model under the influence of Transmutation of Kadon would have to revert from a Mountain Chimera or Great Fire dragon down to something in the lower level like a Horned dragon or black hydra

No, the spell is a 16+. The 20+ is just a variant of the spell.

The simplest question is, what is the minimum casting value of the listed spell? 16+.

There is only one spell called X. It has a minimum casting value of Y. You can also do Z for an extra effect. The minimum value is still Y.

Davall wrote:No, the spell is a 16+. The 20+ is just a variant of the spell.

The simplest question is, what is the minimum casting value of the listed spell? 16+.

There is only one spell called X. It has a minimum casting value of Y. You can also do Z for an extra effect. The minimum value is still Y.

It is minimum casting value of casted spell.

And that is not it, you have to designate what cast you are rolling for (in which also designates the minimum casting value of the spell) if you pick the lower level of 16+ and roll 20+ the spell does not gain an extra effect. There is one spell you choose which minimum casting value you want for it. That in turn decides its minimum dispel value.

It also explains why in the next turn the remain in play spell does not revert to the lower level of the spell. because it retains the pwer of the orginal casted spell

No where in the magic section when it discusses casting spells at an enhanced value does it mention the higher number is the minimum casting value. It only says casting value.

Minimum means the lowest amount, which is the rock bottom, unmodified amount of (in this case) 16+.

Don't gloss over the word minimum.

if I pick the boosted spell (as described in the rules I must pick what version first) and roll get a score of 16-19 I still fail the spell, it is a minimum of 20 needed to cast the spell. Which is outlined by calling it a casting value of 20+ and the fact it fails if I get 16-19

The important word in the rules is not minimum as there are 2 minimum values, 1 for each part of the spell. The important and deciding word is spell. Does it stand for the base spell or the spell you cast. There is a clear difference between which version you cast or else it would not require you to pick with version you are casting.

I would argue that it is the spell you actually cast. As it would take more power to dispel a more powerful version of the spell.

syanticraven wrote:if I pick the boosted spell (as described in the rules I must pick what version first) and roll get a score of 16-19 I still fail the spell, it is a minimum of 20 needed to cast the spell. Which is outlined by calling it a casting value of 20+ and the fact it fails if I get 16-19

And that is the part that makes me agree with you. The book makes you distinguish between casting the normal version or the boosted; you don't simply try to cast the spell and if you get a bigger number you get a better version, you have to designate that you're casting the boosted one.

"rather the minimum casting value listed in the spells description. "

There are multiple casting values listed in the description - only one of them is the minimum.

You use the lowest value in that spell's description, regardless of whether you cast the boosted version or not.

Killjoy00 wrote:"rather the minimum casting value listed in the spells description. "

There are multiple casting values listed in the description - only one of them is the minimum.

You use the lowest value in that spell's description, regardless of whether you cast the boosted version or not.

They are both minimum, minimum means the smallest value needed to cast the spell.

The smallest value needed to cast the spell is decided by the player before he rolls for said spell.
This is why you cannot declare you are casting the boosted version of Transmutation of kadon and then count it as passed on a 16+ and getting the lower effect as the minimum casting for the spell has now become 20+ which remains in play as the players choice of 20+ not reverting to the weaker version or else the spells effect would drop to the lower version aswell.

syanticraven wrote:

They are both minimum, minimum means the smallest value needed to cast the spell.

Incorrect. It clearly refers to the minimum in the spell's description. Minimum means lowest, and there's only value that can be a minimum in the description.

Your counterexample is not appropriate. Casting a spell follows the rules for casting - dispelling a remains in play follows its own rules. Those rules clearly say the minimum value in the description, which can only be one value.

I believe syanticraven has it right here.

It's fairly logical to assume if I need 20+ to cast, in subsequent turns you would need 20+ to dispel. I don't see what the problem is.

Killjoy00 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

They are both minimum, minimum means the smallest value needed to cast the spell.

Incorrect. It clearly refers to the minimum in the spell's description. Minimum means lowest, and there's only value that can be a minimum in the description.

Your counterexample is not appropriate. Casting a spell follows the rules for casting - dispelling a remains in play follows its own rules. Those rules clearly say the minimum value in the description, which can only be one value.

the "Minimum casting value" the spells minimum casting value is 16+ unless however the caster picked the boosted spell in which case according to the spell "the casting value increases to 20+" which means while in play that spells casting value of 16+ is modified to 20+ and therefore the spells (as in the spell in play) minimum casting value is 20+. You are dispelling that specific cast spell.

Also as the spell is a 'remain in play' that modified effect is also 'remain in play' which means every time you look at that number in reference to that specific cast the number is modified to 20+ until it is dispelled.

Unfortunately the rules don't say you dispel "the specific cast spell."

The rule is:

"Remain In Play spells do not retain the energy to their casting, and so a wizard does not need to beat the original casting dice roll if attempting to dispel in subsequent turns, but rather the minimum casting value listed in the spells description. (so there is no need to make note of each spells casting roll)."


There is no need to make note of anything. They do not retain their energy. And most importantly, you have to beat the minimum casting value in the "spell's description."

The spell cast is Transformation of Kadon. Look at the description of that spell. It has multiple casting values. One of them is the minimum.

In other word, your explanation makes the word "minimum" in the rule superfluous. Under your reasoning, it could say "but rather the casting value listed in the spell's description." It does not say that. It says minimum casting value and therefore you use exactly that, the minimum value.

I don't see anywhere that they are "boosted spells" other then where Throne of Vines makes several life spells improved. Say Transformation of Khadon again, I see 2 seperate spells with 2 seperate casting values that do 2 completely different things. I don't see where the fireball example was terrible it is saying the exact same thing. You wouldn't get to dispel the 3d6 48" fire ball with a 5, so there is no way you can dispel the 20+ transformation at anytime for less then a roll of 20+ because that is the minimum casting value for that spell. The only thing the "minimum" and "don't retain the energy to their casting" means is if someone rolls a 26 to cast a spell that you need a 20+ for and it remains in play you won't need a 26 to dispel it just the minimum 20+ that it cast on.

Killjoy00 wrote:Unfortunately the rules don't say you dispel "the specific cast spell."

The rule is:

"Remain In Play spells do not retain the energy to their casting, and so a wizard does not need to beat the original casting dice roll if attempting to dispel in subsequent turns, but rather the minimum casting value listed in the spells description. (so there is no need to make note of each spells casting roll)."


There is no need to make note of anything. They do not retain their energy. And most importantly, you have to beat the minimum casting value in the "spell's description."

The spell cast is Transformation of Kadon. Look at the description of that spell. It has multiple casting values. One of them is the minimum.

In other word, your explanation makes the word "minimum" in the rule superfluous. Under your reasoning, it could say "but rather the casting value listed in the spell's description." It does not say that. It says minimum casting value and therefore you use exactly that, the minimum value.

They say "the spell". Which is the specific cast spell. Otherwise I would then use fireballs casting value.

They do not retain their energy is the ruling retaining to the fact it is reset to minimum casting value instead of having to roll a possible 44+. Hence the ", and so a wizard does not need to beat the original casting dice roll if attempting to dispel in subsequent turns"

My explanation is pretty straight forward in the spells description it notes that if the caster picks the boosted spell, that the casting value is increased to 20+ (making the minimum casting value 20+). That means that during this spells cast and activation and duration that 16+ does not exist, it has been increased to 20+.


Oh also sol, we are refering to pg 34 in the top right hand corner is a box about 'boosted' spells it just says that some spells have different versions and it must be noted which version of the spell is being cast before the di are rolled.

There is one spell named Transformation of Kadon. It has one description, on pg. 493. When a wizard rolls for spells, if he rolls a 6 he gets that one spell, named Transformation of Kadon. In that one spell's single description, there are multiple casting values. One of those values is the minimum casting value in the description of that spell. That value is 16. That value is the value used to dispel the spell.

You haven't answered why it says you don't need to make note of what spell you cast, and you haven't answered why the word minimum wouldn't be superfluous.

You honestly think that if someone casts Doom and Darkness from 30 inches away, you have to dispel that spell on a 13+? If someone casts The Withering from 30 inches away, you have to dispel on a 16+? Both would mean you have to "make note" of which spell it was when it was cast, which is specifically contradicted by the rules.

Killjoy00 wrote:There is one spell named Transformation of Kadon. It has one description, on pg. 493. When a wizard rolls for spells, if he rolls a 6 he gets that one spell, named Transformation of Kadon. In that one spell's single description, there are multiple casting values. One of those values is the minimum casting value in the description of that spell. That value is 16. That value is the value used to dispel the spell.

You haven't answered why it says you don't need to make note of what spell you cast, and you haven't answered why the word minimum wouldn't be superfluous.

You honestly think that if someone casts Doom and Darkness from 30 inches away, you have to dispel that spell on a 13+? If someone casts The Withering from 30 inches away, you have to dispel on a 16+? Both would mean you have to "make note" of which spell it was when it was cast, which is specifically contradicted by the rules.

Sorry I missed that question. But the fact it is says pg43 'Boosted spells' that you must designate which spell you are casting before hand, which is making note of the spell you are casting "Note that if the controlling player does not state otherwise before rolling the dice, a wizard is assumed to be casting the standard version of the spell" By verbally stating you are casting a Boosted spell you have taken note of it. and I dont need to answer the other question it is obvious what it means and states.

minimum it picks the Minimum value which in the case is 16+ unless the caster specifically picked the boosted spell and the rules of the spell specifically note that "the casting value increases to 20+"

There is only 1 casting value. That casting value is 16+ if you designate the stronger spell it is increased to 20+ that is not 2 values, it is 1 value being increased. If it was 2 casting values it would be 16+ but on the roll of 20+ X happens.

"If he does so the casting value is increased to 13+" there is that all important sentence again. Yes I fully believe that to dispel it you must roll a 13+ unless done during the casting of the spell, in which case you have to beat the casters roll. As it is noted that the value 10+ is now increases to 13+, also if withering has "If he does so the casting value is increased to X+" then yes.

As I mentioned you need to verbally mention/designate/note what version of the spell you are casting. Also it is only a contradiction of the rules if it states that you MUST not take a note of the spell, the rules say you do not have to take a note of spells. However in the boosted spell section it says you must verbally note. They are known as basic and advance rules. An advance rules always over runs the general rule.

"Remain In Play spells do not retain the energy to their casting, and so a wizard does not need to beat the original casting dice roll if attempting to dispel in subsequent turns, but rather the minimum casting value listed in the spells description. "


Transformation of Kadon rules:

"The wizard can choose to cast a more powerful version of the spell and become a Mountain Chimera or a Great Dragon [This is the spell description].If he does so, the casting value increases to 20+ [This is the minimum casting value that goes with the spells description].



td;dr: You dispel the spell on the value you cast it on.

syanticraven wrote:

Sorry I missed that question. But the fact it is says pg43 'Boosted spells' that you must designate which spell you are casting before hand, which is making note of the spell you are casting "Note that if the controlling player does not state otherwise before rolling the dice, a wizard is assumed to be casting the standard version of the spell" By verbally stating you are casting a Boosted spell you have taken note of it. and I dont need to answer the other question it is obvious what it means and states.

I'm about done here, but you are once again misrepresenting the rules. Boosted spells is on pg. 32 of my book, but it specifically says pick which version of the spell you are casting. It is not a different spell. It is one spell, with one description, which has one minimum casting value. Similarly to your misrepresentation Boymac - you are selectively quoting the Transformation of kadon rules to edit out the other, minimum casting value.

The rules say you dispel on the "minimum casting value in the spell's description." These spells are one spell, with one description and with one minimum casting value. No amount of semantics on your part can change this.

Killjoy00 wrote:
The rules say you dispel on the "minimum casting value in the spell's description." These spells are one spell, with one description and with one minimum casting value. No amount of semantics on your part can change this.

BoyMac wrote:
Transformation of Kadon rules:

"The wizard can choose to cast a more powerful version of the spell and become a Mountain Chimera or a Great Dragon [This is the spell description].If he does so, the casting value increases to 20+ [This is the minimum casting value that goes with the spells description].

Rules written as above would be dispelled on the casting value of the level you cast it on.

Killjoy00 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Sorry I missed that question. But the fact it is says pg43 'Boosted spells' that you must designate which spell you are casting before hand, which is making note of the spell you are casting "Note that if the controlling player does not state otherwise before rolling the dice, a wizard is assumed to be casting the standard version of the spell" By verbally stating you are casting a Boosted spell you have taken note of it. and I dont need to answer the other question it is obvious what it means and states.

I'm about done here, but you are once again misrepresenting the rules. Boosted spells is on pg. 32 of my book, but it specifically says pick which version of the spell you are casting. It is not a different spell. It is one spell, with one description, which has one minimum casting value. Similarly to your misrepresentation Boymac - you are selectively quoting the Transformation of kadon rules to edit out the other, minimum casting value.

The rules say you dispel on the "minimum casting value in the spell's description." These spells are one spell, with one description and with one minimum casting value. No amount of semantics on your part can change this.

It is you who is arguing semantics. I quoted the rules perfectly and then said version after I said spell. It was as clear as day that I meant version anyway.

However you are ignoring the spells advance rule that says "If he does so the casting value is increased to 20+" The Spells description notes the casting value is 16+ unless it was the more powerful version that was cast. The Spell is 1 spell, with 1 value. That value is dependant on the version of the spell you cast. As the rule book does in fact say "If he does so the casting value is increased to 20+" that means that the minimum casting value for the spell is now increases to 20+ as ANY casting value needed is the minimum casting value as without reaching said casting value the spell is not cast.

It cannot be any clearer "If he does so the casting value is increased to 20+"

syanticraven wrote: The Spell is 1 spell, with 1 value. That value is dependant on the version of the spell you cast.

This is where you keep tripping up. The minimum value IN THE DESCRIPTION actually can't change. No matter how many times you read the description for the spell "Transformation of kadon" there will only be 1 minimum in there.

Killjoy00 wrote:

syanticraven wrote: The Spell is 1 spell, with 1 value. That value is dependant on the version of the spell you cast.

This is where you keep tripping up. The minimum value IN THE DESCRIPTION actually can't change. No matter how many times you read the description for the spell "Transformation of kadon" there will only be 1 minimum in there.

In the description is "If he does so the casting value is increased to 20+".
Increasing something is changing it.

Once said "I am casting the boosted version of X spell" The minimum casting value is changed. It cannot be called a secondary or intermediate casting value as the minimum needed to pass the spell has now changed. Which makes it the new minimum casting value for said spell.

@ Killjoy00.
Please stop you're emarassing yourself.