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I just finished reading "A Thousand Sons" and this phrase struck me.
"There are no wolves on Fenris"
I felt they strongly alluded that the wolves were "something" but I haven't quite decided what they were going for.
They used that phrase ominously, and then later when Phosis T'kan is fighting a wolf, he stared into its eyes and saw something that they don't explain.
So I thought I'd throw it up here, and see what others thought. I have my speculations and will chime in again later.
I am also getting the feeling the BL are either going to explore the lost legions, or just dance around it so it is annoying.
The thing I found most interesting in the story was
Spoiler:
when Magnus breaks through the webway and realises that the Emperor was working on making the Golden Throne a control hub of the webway. This was something that was much speculated but never confirmed before. Shame what it ends up as.
Bam, said the lady!
DR:70S+GM++B+I+Pw40k09/f++D++A(WTF)/hWD153R+++T(S)DM++++ Dakka, what is good in life?
To crush other websites,
See their user posts driven before you,
And hear the lamentation of the newbs.
-Frazzled-10/22/09
Something also to keep in mind is that Leman Russ and his Rune Priests were persecuting the Thousand Suns for sorcery, aka bartering with daemons for power.
Think about how the Space Wolf psychic powers are described, invoking the power of spirits and gods...
...the implication is that they weren't always wolves. It appears that the original settlers were genetically modified to survive on Fenris -- witness the hints about the Canis Helix, etc. -- but devolved into "wolves." And presumably the Wulfen, etc. are all tied up in this. It seems especially ironic given the SW's persecution of the 1KSons and their flesh changes.
Ok. here's the theories I came up with, from info in that book, the SW saga of Ragnar, and the old codices. I do not have the newest one.
Spoiler:
My feeling is that they are likely those who succumbed to the Wulfen curse while they were initiates on Fenris.
These devolved into the wild, and it helps to explain the size of them.
Space Marines are genetically designed to be large, so I can believe that a mutated manwolf can become much larger than normal.
The hole in this theory is the symbolism of Wolves in Fenrisian culture, and if Fenrisian Wolves are able to breed.
If the Wolves weren't there before they started making Space Marines on Fenris, where do the wolves come from.
If the wolves were always there, then I go with theory 2. That the Wulfen Curse is something that any native of Fenris has the risk of succumbing to.
In this scenario, I imagine the Canis Helix causes the Curse to appear much more frequent and worse.
This would also explain the variance in size between wolves. The smaller would of course be from the normal natives, while the ThunderWolves would be former Space Wolves.
I think what was seen in the eyes is either the feeling that they were human eyes and souls looking out. Or that it was something demonic.
I don't like the demon theory because it creates bigger issues. It also muddies the "what are Primarchs" question that the book also hinted at.
I really hope they don't end up explaining them. It already feels like they are going with they are Demon Princes created by their God, the Emperor.
I think my theories are a bit obvious and mundane. But they are the impressions I got from the material.
I was really hoping they would do something that would surprise me, and while its good stuff, very litte has made me go "whoa!".
Except that Ahriman is
Spoiler:
Terran and a twin
Automatically Appended Next Post: @gorgon
Wouldn't the persecution feed into the "hating what you are" idea?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/10/12 22:26:41
Bam, said the lady!
DR:70S+GM++B+I+Pw40k09/f++D++A(WTF)/hWD153R+++T(S)DM++++ Dakka, what is good in life?
To crush other websites,
See their user posts driven before you,
And hear the lamentation of the newbs.
-Frazzled-10/22/09
The "Wolves" were put there by the colonising fleet of old Earth before grim-dark struck after that they must have evolved to suit the terrain and other predators which considering the fact the have trolls and kraken onFenris seems perfectly reasonable to have a wolf with fur like steel and is the size of a rhino.
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It's writing with a poor regard for previous history.
It's also a reference to the unusual size and intelligence of Fenrisian wolves and tying it to the who Wulfen thing. But it also falls apart when you realize that Fenrisian wolves have packs, mate, etc.
Traitors tried to make it ominous. Realistically, Fenrisian wolves may not be wolves in the Terran sense and are something smarter and stronger. Much like SMs aren't human.
As to the sorcery thing, it's always a question of degrees. And Magnus and crew were willfully engaging warp powers in direct contravention of the Emperor's commands. It was not just Russ alarmed- Mortarion was also not a fan. Neither was the Emperor. No such objections have ever been levelled at the Rune Priests, who seem to have inbuilt protections and use only relatively minor elemental effects that they can control. that is why Librarians and their ilk were allowed, remember?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/13 16:04:16
I only read the book once, when it was first released, but I totally don't remember this...
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Oh wait. His fluff, at this point, has him coming to blows with Lionel, Angryon, Magnus, and The Emprah. One can only assume he went into the Eye of Terror because he still hadn't had a chance to punch enough Primarchs yet.
Albatross wrote:I guess we'll never know. That is, until Frazzled releases his long-awaited solo album 'Touch My Weiner'. Then we'll know.
warboss wrote:I marvel at their ability to shoot the entire foot off with a shotgun instead of pistol shooting individual toes off like most businesses would.
Mr Nobody wrote:Going to war naked always seems like a good idea until someone trips on gravel.
Ghidorah wrote: You need to quit hating and trying to control other haters hating on other people's hobbies that they are trying to control.
ShumaGorath wrote:Posting in a thread where fat nerds who play with toys make fun of fat nerds who wear costumes outdoors.
Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Good thing it wasn't attacked by the EC, or it would be the assault on Magnir's Crack.
The Council of Nikea (sp) made it very clear that NO psykers were to use powers, yet the Runepriests were clearly ignoring that order.
There was also the bit where all the psykers stood together and pointed out how the Navigators used psyker powers.
The SW seemed to think they were better or different when they weren't.
A bit hypocritical, yeah?
The big bit that got me though was the reaction given when the one Son looked into a wolf's eyes and freaked. That isn't just a recognizing intelligence reaction.
Bam, said the lady!
DR:70S+GM++B+I+Pw40k09/f++D++A(WTF)/hWD153R+++T(S)DM++++ Dakka, what is good in life?
To crush other websites,
See their user posts driven before you,
And hear the lamentation of the newbs.
-Frazzled-10/22/09
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
it is possable that Space Wolves that fall to the curse would be able to, as much as it seems rediclous, interbreed with the Fenrisian Wolves.
these hybrids became the massive thunderwolves.
the Fenrisian Wolves are descendents of Wolves brought to Fenris by the original human settlers.
FWIW the human settlers could have simply brought the desendents of Irish Wolf Hounds, or some other large breed of dog, to Fenris(dogs are simply wolves that have been selectivly bred) and these became the Fenrisian Wolves after escaping from captivity.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
skrulnik wrote:The Council of Nikea (sp) made it very clear that NO psykers were to use powers, yet the Runepriests were clearly ignoring that order. There was also the bit where all the psykers stood together and pointed out how the Navigators used psyker powers. The SW seemed to think they were better or different when they weren't.
A bit hypocritical, yeah?
Don't forget, that while Mortarion was probably the STRONGEST supporter of the Edict of Nikea, Typhus was still a practicing Librarian (and a powerful one at that) both before, and after, the council's verdict.
Hypocrasy was rampant in the Imperium after this decree (hell, the Emprah himself still dabbled in many magics, regardless of the Muggles' concerns)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/10/13 16:25:09
In Reference to me:
Emperors Faithful wrote: I'm certainly not going to attract the ire of the crazy-giant-child-eating-chicken-poster
Monster Rain wrote:
DAR just laid down the law so hard I think it broke.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
The Council didn't outlaw Psykers.
it was sorcery that was outlawed.
without Psykers and psychic powers it would be impossable to communicate or travel accross the galaxy. Navigators couldn't pilot ships, Astropaths could transmitt messages.
Sorcery is the actual summoning of Deamonic entities to do your bidding.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote:The Council didn't outlaw Psykers.
it was sorcery that was outlawed.
without Psykers and psychic powers it would be impossable to communicate or travel accross the galaxy. Navigators couldn't pilot ships, Astropaths could transmitt messages.
Sorcery is the actual summoning of Deamonic entities to do your bidding.
I'm sorry but I (and the actual wording from the book) have to disagree...
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/13 16:50:56
In Reference to me:
Emperors Faithful wrote: I'm certainly not going to attract the ire of the crazy-giant-child-eating-chicken-poster
Monster Rain wrote:
DAR just laid down the law so hard I think it broke.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
very well.
a bit of a douch move on his part.
although it seems he only banned Astartes from Sorcery.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
although it seems he only banned Astartes from Sorcery.
Actually I completely agree, especially if you read the second part of his decree where he basically says
(granted I am paraphrasing)
Spoiler:
"So I know I cloned you kids to have the same wizard janks as me, but if I catch you castin magic missile on tha darkness, I'ma beat you like a Magnus the red-headed step child!"
In Reference to me:
Emperors Faithful wrote: I'm certainly not going to attract the ire of the crazy-giant-child-eating-chicken-poster
Monster Rain wrote:
DAR just laid down the law so hard I think it broke.
Yeah, which is inconsistent with previous backstory and, I think, just an example of poor HH book writing. I mean these are the same lametards that reduced Fulgrim's and Horus' spiral to daemonic possession.
jmurph wrote:Yeah, which is inconsistent with previous backstory and, I think, just an example of poor HH book writing. I mean these are the same lametards that reduced Fulgrim's and Horus' spiral to daemonic possession.
The way I look at the Heresy Novels is that the "previous backstory" is the garbled propagandized Imperial version in the year 40,000.
The stories in the novels are clear, unfilitered, from the eyes of the participants accounts.
Also, they are the just one possible version of the history.
GW doesn't believe in a hard, permanent, Star Trek-like Canon.
Therefore, any problems you have with it is, IMO, a difference of opinion with where the writer's went with the story.
Fulgrim was a possession that he walked into arrogantly. As he did everything. His flaw led him there. Story works for me.
Same with what happens to Magnus. Pride before that fall and all that.
Horus' situation stricks me as more of a collaboration with the demons rather than possession.
His story seems to follow more of a slow corruption of his ideals coupled with psychological flaws.
Bam, said the lady!
DR:70S+GM++B+I+Pw40k09/f++D++A(WTF)/hWD153R+++T(S)DM++++ Dakka, what is good in life?
To crush other websites,
See their user posts driven before you,
And hear the lamentation of the newbs.
-Frazzled-10/22/09
Possible the most useful thing I learned in school was "Beware the limited first person narrator". Basically a good way of detecting misleading information is determining whether it's the perspective of a character in the story or information provided for the characters. Take "Fight Club" as an example of how this works: Edward Norton's character is oblivious to the fact that he's Tyler Durden. Similarly take "The Watchmen" where Dr. Manhattan is variously described as flaky, disconnected, and so on, when he's experiencing all the events in his bizarre new life at the same time, which is revealed to be pretty distracting when Ozymandias uses tachyon interference to interfere with his ability to localize to a particular point in time.
...the implication is that they weren't always wolves. It appears that the original settlers were genetically modified to survive on Fenris -- witness the hints about the Canis Helix, etc. -- but devolved into "wolves." And presumably the Wulfen, etc. are all tied up in this. It seems especially ironic given the SW's persecution of the 1KSons and their flesh changes.
This. I like that that it was only hinted at, rather than spelled out.
Spoiler:
This also means that the Wulfen phenomenon isn't related to the Space Wolves' gene-seed, but rather the unique population that they draw their recruits from. It makes a lot more sense than previous non-explanations for why this happens to an otherwise well-respected Astartes Chapter.
The Immortal God Emperor (peace be upon him) wrote: Evidently we must strive to be the fierce redeemer of man, yet what shall redeem us?
Welcome to dakkadakka! Exopheric!
But still the Wolves were pricks. And Hypocrites throughout the entire book...
Spoiler:
My biggest beef was with the Wolves. I had alot of respect for them. But they were painted like savage d--ks, who really only cared about slaughter. Which I thought angorn was the best at being! The Thousand Sons were seriously one of the most noble legions, and people loved them. They were respected, and they fought things that the imperium was going to fight anyway! Just imagine the potential if the Thousand Son's were not attacked by the Space Wolves! And the Thousand Son's fought horus? Would of the war been different? Hell yeah it would of. The There are no Wolves on Fenris i smilied at as I agreed that these wolves were not just wolves they had something more. I also believed they were cyberborg hybrids that basically can mate, but over the generations they developed skin. But Yeah I have to agree the Space Wolves Rune Priest was a jerk, and one of the biggest hypocrites i have ever seen written down in a book. As he said I use magical powers! You use Sorcery! What is the difference seriously? Isn't the definition of Sorcery a Person that Uses magic? What hypocrites, i seriously started crying because the Space Wolves were such a noble chapter after the hersey! But before they were just a group of d--ks. But still I like what Ahriman does to the Rune Priest It has to be the best way to get rid of an donkey-cave.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/14 02:45:07
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
That makes sense considering the Wolf Brothers were an infamous disaster of a founding.
Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch to preserve his Astartes against the ravages of the Warp. Who are the gods of Fenris to whom Leman Russ turned when the curse of the Wulfen threatened to overcome his legion? Who are the spirits invoked by the psychic power descriptions in the codex?
Mortarian's obsession with multiples of 7 suggest that he was already well down the road to damnation, and drawing Nurgle's attention to him. Alpharius and Omegon promoted a critical approach to the official philosophy of the Imperium. The hypocrisy of the Great Crusade seems to be a theme.
That makes sense considering the Wolf Brothers were an infamous disaster of a founding.
Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch to preserve his Astartes against the ravages of the Warp. Who are the gods of Fenris to whom Leman Russ turned when the curse of the Wulfen threatened to overcome his legion? Who are the spirits invoked by the psychic power descriptions in the codex?
Mortarian's obsession with multiples of 7 suggest that he was already well down the road to damnation, and drawing Nurgle's attention to him. Alpharius and Omegon promoted a critical approach to the official philosophy of the Imperium. The hypocrisy of the Great Crusade seems to be a theme.
Wait that MEANS THAT BUNGIE IS WORSHIPPERS OF NURGLE!
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Yeah, the Wolves were hostile from the start. They were pretty justified. They have an inherent distrust of psychic powers, which the Thousand Sons used casually. More than that they were holding up a vital crusade in a nearby system by screwing around on Aghoru while battle brothers died. It did in fact turn out to be a bad idea what with uncorking a Greater Daemon and all.
Beyond the Wolves' provincial narrowmindedness (my tribe's traditions are good medicine, yours are bad mojo) there was a real difference between Space Wolf and Thousand Sons magical practice. Though it's not spelled out until the end, the Tutelaries are definitely Daemons that had assumed a benign guise. The Thousand Sons did draw their power from the Warp through these beings. It was what let them throw as much power around as they did, and that IS sorcery. It's the forerunner of the Daemonic Pacts used by Chaos Sorcerers. Even though Ahriman & co. weren't aware of the true nature of their practices-- they were actually doing what they had been accused of.
Arguably the Edicts of Nikaea weren't the best response to the issue. However, the Emperor seemed to be attempting to starve the Chaos Powers out- creating a strictly secular state, denying them potential worshipers or any other potential conduits to influence humanity. Shutting down inquiries into psychic knowledge was a consistent choice, since it kept anyone from finding out the truth and succumbing to temptation or manipulation-- which Magnus had already done, even if he wouldn't admit it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote:
Wait that MEANS THAT BUNGIE IS WORSHIPPERS OF NURGLE!
The Gravemind wrote:"Now the gate has been unlatched, headstones pushed aside; corpses shift and offer room, a fate you must abide!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/14 03:35:18
The Immortal God Emperor (peace be upon him) wrote: Evidently we must strive to be the fierce redeemer of man, yet what shall redeem us?
This was probably my favorite of the HH so far, but I was never really deep into the original backstory, so the current canon works fine for me.
Spoiler:
One thing I noticed very prominently was that towards the end, when Ahriman killed the Rune Priest Wyrdmake, McNeill heavily implies that the Space Wolves do not truly understand that their power is warp-based as well. Yes, it's different in manifestation and degree of use, but I'd argue that at its core it's no different than another variety of warp power (like the various Cults).
Also, the Council of Nikea was a little wonky as far as how hypocritical it was. I can understand the Wolves, and to a certain extent Mortarion (he was a stubborn primarch that valued unyielding determination over specialization, and had a bad past with sorcery), but it seemed a bit weird that nobody really listened to the order. It appeared that most of it was simply an excuse to curb Magnus.
Oh, and when Magnus broke all the crap in the Throne room, and finally realized what the Emperor had been planning...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/10/14 04:15:52
What's the deal with the hints linking Constantin Valdor with Horus' twisting of the Emperor's commands to Russ to rein in Magnus?
Is this new? I thought he was a straight-up guy. Or was he just acting for what he saw as the Imperium's best interests?
He may have possibly been at the Golden Throne area when Magnus stormed in and advertently destroyed and I think killed some of the mechanicus workers and Custodes who were stationed in the area. The death of his friends/subordinates, and the destruction of the Emperors great work, may have made him want to be a little bit more harsh on Magnus.
Either that, or he's on Horus's side, someone high up in the Imperial Palace let Horus know an assassin team was coming in Nemesis. I hope thats not the case, as it would be kind of cheesy.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
The Chaos Gods weren't exactly being starved by the creation of a secular state. It simply concealed their true nature and gave them opportunity to subvert the Emperor's plans. A Great Crusade, a two hundred year galactic war isn't exactly inconsequential to the Lord of Battles. Perverting and subverting is what Slaanesh does, you're not going to outwit Tzeentch, and Nurgle is the essence of inevitability as the golden dream of utopia implodes.
" -KingCracker
Evidently we must strive to be the fierce redeemer of man, yet what shall redeem us? 
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