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Me and a few friends had a game this weekend. It was a 3 way battle with 1850 points. I played Space Wolves and my other friend played Tau and my other buddy played orks. The table was set up to where everyone was hugging the edge. well the ork player was bringing Ghaz and a unit of kommandos with Snikrot. He said the Ghaz was going into Snikrots unit and the tau guy said that they can only outflank. But the ork player said that snikrot conferred the ability to Ghaz.

So you make the call does Ghaz get Snikrots ability?

Isn't outflanking lost when joined by an IC who doesn't have it?

I have heard that you can't do this. Something about how rules transfer to IC. Can't remember exactly what the argument was though.

purplefood wrote:Isn't outflanking lost when joined by an IC who doesn't have it?

Yes, this is correct. If the IC can't outflank, the unit he joins can't outflank either.

I believe everyone is thinking about Infiltrate. Infiltrate is lost when an IC without it is joined to a squad. Outflank is not a USR, so does not follow the same rules as for losing Infiltrate. Now Snikrot's special rule is just that, a special rule, not a USR. there is some debate as to if an IC can join his squad and do this. It would seem that it is RAW to let Ghaz outflank with Snikrot.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/304186.page

Technically Snikrot and his unit doesn't outflank but if ork player declares that they are outflanking with ghaz then it's illegal.

Not this again...
Yes RAW he can do it. This is because it is not outflanking it is Snikrots special rule which he confers to any UNIT he is in. If Ghazghkull is a part of this unit then he gets the benefits of it as well.

Oh lawds.

Yes, Ghaz can do this, RaW. (The Ambush thing that is, not Outflank)

Is it "fair"? I don't care! The rules say he can, so he can.

Oh lawds.

Yes, Ghaz can do this, RaW. (The Ambush thing that is, not Outflank)

Is it "fair"? I don't care! The rules say he can, so he can.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it say Snikrot's squad? Where in this does it claim independent characters are effected? In the rulebook it specifically states the IC's don't gain the rules of a unit unless it specifically says they do. In this case it does not.

JGrand wrote:

Oh lawds.

Yes, Ghaz can do this, RaW. (The Ambush thing that is, not Outflank)

Is it "fair"? I don't care! The rules say he can, so he can.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it say Snikrot's squad? Where in this does it claim independent characters are effected? In the rulebook it specifically states the IC's don't gain the rules of a unit unless it specifically says they do. In this case it does not.

The rulebook only talks about USRs.

Ambush is not a USR.

Ghazgul is joined to the unit, so is part of Snikrots unit. If he wasn't, he could be picked out in shooting (which he can't, because he is part of the unit).

Well to add to the question my friend playing Tau says that the IC doesnt join the unit till its on the field. So his arguement was that Ghaz doesnt get the ability because he isnt technically with the group until its on the table.

Daemon Eater wrote:Well to add to the question my friend playing Tau says that the IC doesnt join the unit till its on the field. So his arguement was that Ghaz doesnt get the ability because he isnt technically with the group until its on the table.

Except that that's not correct. In deployment, the IC doesn't join the unit until both are on the field.

However, when placed in reserve (which is how you use Snikrot's rule), the IC joins the unit as if it were on the field, and they come in from reserve together.

The rulebook only talks about USRs.

Ambush is not a USR.

Ghazgul is joined to the unit, so is part of Snikrots unit. If he wasn't, he could be picked out in shooting (which he can't, because he is part of the unit).

I'll have to double check that. I could have sworn under the Independent Character section it refers to all special rules. I also don't like people stretching the definition of the term "unit". Ghaz is not part of the unit, he is an IC joining a unit. By this logic I can join an IC to a Daemonically Possessed CSM squad and roll for the bonus rules that effect them too. I mean it does say "possessed unit" gets the bonus and those IC's are in the unit

Don't play to cheat, boys and girls

JGrand wrote:

The rulebook only talks about USRs.

Ambush is not a USR.

Ghazgul is joined to the unit, so is part of Snikrots unit. If he wasn't, he could be picked out in shooting (which he can't, because he is part of the unit).

I'll have to double check that. I could have sworn under the Independent Character section it refers to all special rules. I also don't like people stretching the definition of the term "unit". Ghaz is not part of the unit, he is an IC joining a unit. By this logic I can join an IC to a Daemonically Possessed CSM squad and roll for the bonus rules that effect them too. I mean it does say "possessed unit" gets the bonus and those IC's are in the unit

Don't play to cheat, boys and girls

Except that if an IC joins a unit of Possessed, it is no longer a "Possessed unit." It is now a "Possessed unit with an IC attached to it."

And the rules for ICs only reference USRs, not Special Rules in general. It says "special rules," but then goes on to reference several Universal Special Rules and call them Special Rules, which they are not. It even then points you to the USRs section. So either the rules for ICs and USRs are broken and don't work at all anyway (because they call Universal Special Rules "special rules"), or they only refer to USRs. I'd go with the latter.

I think I might agree: the IC rules (BRB, pg. 48) discuss special rules of which USRs are a subset. So if unit or character's rules do not say something like unit and any ICs joined then the rules are not passed on. So neither Infiltrate or Ambush is passed to joined ICs.

Homer

Except that if an IC joins a unit of Possessed, it is no longer a "Possessed unit." It is now a "Possessed unit with an IC attached to it."

How is this any different from Ghaz joining a unit? It's just you deciding what definition you like. Who's to say it's not a possessed unit anymore? I see a possessed unit still there. It's the same logic. A reasonable person says that it is Snikrot's unit with an attached IC. A WAAC d-bag says it's Snikrot's unit by his definition and outflanks them and the IC. You can sleaze loose definitions either way.

And the rules for ICs only reference USRs, not Special Rules in general. It says "special rules," but then goes on to reference several Universal Special Rules and call them Special Rules, which they are not. It even then points you to the USRs section. So either the rules for ICs and USRs are broken and don't work at all anyway (because they call Universal Special Rules "special rules"), or they only refer to USRs. I'd go with the latter.

I'm disappointed. As a strict RAW guy you should be all saying "special rules" meaning exactly what it says. Special rules refers to all special rules. That seems to be the intent because if not you get some broken stuff.

But in all seriousness this is a big case of GW oversight. I don't think IC's gain a unit's ability unless it states they do. If people want to debate the meaning of the term "unit" go ahead but at the end of the day as IC joining a unit is just that; a unit with an attached IC. Unless it says the IC gets the rule it does not.

If it is a friendly game, you can house rule how you want to treat Ghaz for the sake of Snikrot's special ability, as the conversation for the whole argument to have an IC join Snikrot's unit and be able to Ambush with them led around in circles.

If the ork player argues until the end of time to allow it, just let him do it and make sure everything moves away from the Snikrot squad as Ghaz has Mega armor and moves like a rock when he is not on the Waaagh!

Bottomline- come to an agreement with your friends. If you go to a tourney, ask the TO about this situation.

So by the same understanding a ic who joins a unit that has a model that confers fnp or hatred or what ever is cheap and cheating because the ic dissent have the ability until it joins the unit.special rules are not usr. Deal with it instead of crying when you get beat.if you know they are in reserve do something different with your deployment or figure out a way to counter it.or just cry about getting beat which is what all the loser, pour players do.

JGrand wrote:
I'm disappointed. As a strict RAW guy you should be all saying "special rules" meaning exactly what it says. Special rules refers to all special rules. That seems to be the intent because if not you get some broken stuff.

But in all seriousness this is a big case of GW oversight. I don't think IC's gain a unit's ability unless it states they do. If people want to debate the meaning of the term "unit" go ahead but at the end of the day as IC joining a unit is just that; a unit with an attached IC. Unless it says the IC gets the rule it does not.

Good thing Ambush isn't an ability of the unit then, it's an ability that is strictly snikrot's.
It says the unit he's with gets to do X, the IC is part of the unit... The end. No special rules are conferred or gained or lost... you just apply snikrot's rule like it says to.

And that is what happened but the question is for tournies. We want to figure this out for future refrence so that when he decides to bring this list he knows its legal. We dont have a GW store so all our tournies are independant, which makes it hard to argue about rules when no one works for the company that makes the game.

Daemon Eater wrote:And that is what happened but the question is for tournies. We want to figure this out for future refrence so that when he decides to bring this list he knows its legal. We dont have a GW store so all our tournies are independant, which makes it hard to argue about rules when no one works for the company that makes the game.

Is it perfectly legal? Yes.
Is it often considered an 'unfair' or 'beardy' move that people throw a fit over? Also yes.
Ask your tournament organizers ahead of time.

So by the same understanding a ic who joins a unit that has a model that confers fnp or hatred or what ever is cheap and cheating because the ic dissent have the ability until it joins the unit.special rules are not usr. Deal with it instead of crying when you get beat.if you know they are in reserve do something different with your deployment or figure out a way to counter it.or just cry about getting beat which is what all the loser, pour players do.

1. Punctuation please. That was awful.
2. Usually FNP is conferred by war gear. In many of those cases it is stated that it does effect IC's ex. Blood Chalice
3. No one is crying. An outflanking squad with Ghaz and Snikrot is around 450 points. It can come in and charge one unit (probably a vehicle). It kills that. Then it proceeds to get shot down. I could care less.

I would only not play against it because the rules don't allow it. I personally think it's a horrible idea and really, if a player was going to piss and moan I'd probably let them do it. Then I'd probably not play them again becasue anyone who is going to be such a baby and bend the rules for every minuscule advantage is not usually worth my time.

I play for fun...winning is second. When Warhammer becomes something I have to bring a lawyer to to argue the meaning of the words "unit" and "special rules" and whether that means "USR" only it's not fun.


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Good thing Ambush isn't an ability of the unit then, it's an ability that is strictly snikrot's.
It says the unit he's with gets to do X, the IC is part of the unit... The end. No special rules are conferred or gained or lost... you just apply snikrot's rule like it says to.

Do upgrade characters rules automatically effect attached IC's without saying they do? Hmmm, I missed that.

It is a special rule that effects Snikrot's unit. Snikrot is an upgrade character to a unit. That is his unit. An IC joining the unit does not gain the special rule. As someone pointed out on p. 48 it discusses this.

As another example:
You have a squad of Marines with Lysander attached. A generic Captain with storm-bolter attaches during movement.
In the shooting phase the player chooses to use Lysanders "Bolter drill" special rule. Since the generic captain is attached to the same unit as Lysander, the captain may also take advantage of Lysander's rule and re-roll his failed hits.

The difference being that Snikrot is a unit upgrade and not an IC. However the same goes for Telion. If, for whatever reason, you had an IC attached to telions Squad, Telion can use his Special rule and confer BS6 onto the IC.

It's not that great of a tactic. Sure, you can [provided your jurisdiction says it's legal] split Ghaz off to destroy his own vehicle, and take your chances with defensive grenades with Snikrot and co (no nob with PK), but like Jgrand said, that's two vehicles, max, for ~450 points.

That's provided they come in turn 2, and not 5, and get to do anything.

It's not horrible, because you have an 18" threat range on every table edge (provided you waaagh), but it's not great either, as most things can counter it.

It's not that great of a tactic. Sure, you can [provided your jurisdiction says it's legal] split Ghaz off to destroy his own vehicle, and take your chances with defensive grenades with Snikrot and co (no nob with PK), but like Jgrand said, that's two vehicles, max, for ~450 points.

That's provided they come in turn 2, and not 5, and get to do anything.

It's not horrible, because you have an 18" threat range on every table edge (provided you waaagh), but it's not great either, as most things can counter it.

Even if he could hypothetically come in via outflanking, I don't believe that he could leave his unit that turn. So one target. But it's a moot point as you can't do it

As another example:
You have a squad of Marines with Lysander attached. A generic Captain with storm-bolter attaches during movement.
In the shooting phase the player chooses to use Lysanders "Bolter drill" special rule. Since the generic captain is attached to the same unit as Lysander, the captain may also take advantage of Lysander's rule and re-roll his failed hits.

The difference being that Snikrot is a unit upgrade and not an IC. However the same goes for Telion. If, for whatever reason, you had an IC attached to telions Squad, Telion can use his Special rule and confer BS6 onto the IC.

Yes, Lysander confers the ability on his unit. He is an independent character who has a rule that specifically states it works on the unit he joins. This has nothing to do with the current scenario. As for Tellion's squad it says "one friendly model in his squad". I could see this going either way. Luckily this will never happen.

JGrand wrote: A WAAC d-bag says it's Snikrot's unit by his definition and outflanks them and the IC. You can sleaze loose definitions either way.

How about we not insult people for enjoying the game differently to you, mkay?

There's nothing saying you can't put Ghaz in 2" away from the squad and therefore break coherency. I don't believe there are any reserve IC rules for that, which would suggest normal movement rules apply.

If you can bring in an IC from reserves, and break coherency, you can do it with Ghaz the exact same way.

But yea, most people won't allow it anyways so it's a moot point.

What I don't get is the constant referencing of wargear being a special circumstance over a special rule. There's no top secret rule that states "wargear>>>special rules". They're identical. The only thing that is special (according to some in the thread) is USRs - nothing to do with wargear.

How about we not insult people for enjoying the game differently to you, mkay?

Not attempting to. People are free to play however they want. I just think people who want to play rules lawyer all the time need to step back and realize that it's just a game.

There's nothing saying you can't put Ghaz in 2" away from the squad and therefore break coherency. I don't believe there are any reserve IC rules for that, which would suggest normal movement rules apply.

If you can bring in an IC from reserves, and break coherency, you can do it with Ghaz the exact same way.

But yea, most people won't allow it anyways so it's a moot point.

What? You aren't allowed to break coherency. This makes no sense at all. I don't know for sure (as I don't have the rules here) but I don't believe you are able to join or leave the turn you enter from reserves. You join or leave with IC's at the start of a movement phase and the start of the phase in this hypothetical case they are entering from off the table as a single unit. Therefore he wouldn't be able to. You can't just choose to not remain in coherency.


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What I don't get is the constant referencing of wargear being a special circumstance over a special rule. There's no top secret rule that states "wargear>>>special rules". They're identical. The only thing that is special (according to some in the thread) is USRs - nothing to do with wargear.

Yes, war gear sometimes confers a special rule. The only difference referenced is that they specify that joining characters get the rule (in some cases). Which is exactly the point. They are both conferring special rules. It must state that it is conferred to joining IC's or it doesn't work on them.

JGrand wrote:Not attempting to. People are free to play however they want. I just think people who want to play rules lawyer all the time need to step back and realize that it's just a game.

Sure. And people also need to realise that different people enjoy the game in different ways, and the fact that someone prefers to read the rules a little more literally than you do doesn't make them deserving of being called names. As you say, it's just a game. So from here on in, please stick to discussing the rules, not the players.

JGrand wrote:
Yes, war gear sometimes confers a special rule. The only difference referenced is that they specify that joining characters get the rule (in some cases). Which is exactly the point. They are both conferring special rules. It must state that it is conferred to joining IC's or it doesn't work on them.

Right. Except I'm talking about those "some cases" where it doesn't specify, yet it is generally considered that ICs get them anyways.

I'm saying there isn't a line drawn for wargear and special rules.

A Painboy's Dok's Tools never state that any ICs get Feel No Pain - it just says "the unit". Yet it is universally regarded that a Warboss, or Ghaz, would gain the effects of FNP by being in that squad.

The Sanguinary Priest's Blood Chalice never states that it affects ICs in any fashion. It simply says "all units gain the effects".

Snikrot also says "the unit", and doesn't specifically mention the IC. Snikrot's ambush rule is just highlighted because of the sleaziness of the situation, but it's no different.