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So, I was thinking of picking up 2 Land Speeder storms to add to me Salamanders, filled with Scouts. (These wouldn't be my only troops choices)

2x Landspeed storm w/ Multi-melta. 5man cc scout with Combi-melta and either a power fist or Melta bomb.

I'm wanting this to be an alpha strike/Hit the big tanks/Stop the big transport/assualt the shooties unit. And against one of my most frequent opponents (Deamons) a Anti deep strike unit (Sit it near my Land raider so his Flamers can't land near and super glance it) What I''m wanting to know is if I'm doing it right:

If I go first, flat out scout move (outside 18 inch of closest), 12 inch move, disembark 2 inch, fire Storm's Multi Melta (twin linked thanks to Vulkan), fire Combi-melta(same), charge with power fist or melta bomb. Right?

If I go second, either outflank or turbo boost and hope a 4+ cover save is good enough to save them. And even if they die, they took some shots. Right?

Also, would the extra 20 points be worth it for a power fist over a Melta bomb?

And lastly, are these units worth it? Or should I look to put points elsewhere? Thanks.

I like to run two Storms as outflankers. I throw a fist on the squad - better for CC and for taking out vehicles since most are rear armor 10. Then throw them like a torpedo at high value targets. You can even get them stuck in if you like on the cargo of a vehicle that was blown.

I used to think LS Storms were a total waste of points, until I fought against 2 LS storms in a Vulkan army. I still think that a single storm isn't worth it in any army, but Vulkan synergizes with them to change what they can do and make them better.

If you're going first, 2+ Storms in an army have a big effect on deployment, so they're worth it in that sense. They are relatively easy to counter: you can't end your scout move within 12" of an enemy unit, so bubblewrap units can screen tanks from your alpha strike, or your opponent can just start all in reserve. But the fact that your opponent either has to screen/reserve or risk losing 4+ tanks in turn one can sometimes give you an early game advantage.

If you use Vulkan in your salamanders army, then the multimelta is worth taking. Otherwise the BS3 makes them too unreliable, and the flamer is better. They're only going to get one shot off, so it better count.

Also the unit is a one-shot, sacrificial unit. So with 2 of them going for an alpha strike, you can expect to lose 4KPs in the first couple of turns (without drawing any significant firepower off the rest of your army, since they're going to be in close). So, again, whatever they do they have to make it count.

If you're going second, they can outflank for a disruptive effect on the opponent's backfield. But again, one-shot & sacrificial.

I was thinking of the same idea except only one. My only problem is it does not quite fit in with the fluff if that matters to you.

I always outflank my Storms, you force your opponent away from the edges when you do and create all sorts of problems. I have also had them survive a surprising length of time when they come in by Turn 3 or so there is not that much AT firepower on the board and their cargo tends to incapacitate the nearest ones.

In my experience trying to Alpha Strike anything like a speeder means a mess - ie by scouting and zooming in. You strand units in the heart of the enemy firepower. However, I might consider it if I was going first and had a pair of Drop Pods I could bring in as well to saturate the target area.

I run vulkan so it is the MM, but I agree in principle on the HF.

The fluff on speeders for Salamanders does suggest they wouldn't be common. But I really enjoy playing with them.

If you use Vulkan, then I would stick with the MM.
If not, I'm not going to gamble on the BS3 and will grab the HF instead.

I run a LS Storm and CCW scouts.

Give them a powerfist, and as everybody else has said, throw them at a high-value target. My favorite targets are Devastators, Havocs, Oblits, etc. Stuff not ment to be in combat.

Brother-Thunder wrote:I run a LS Storm and CCW scouts.

Give them a powerfist, and as everybody else has said, throw them at a high-value target. My favorite targets are Devastators, Havocs, Oblits, etc. Stuff not ment to be in combat.

Dont oblits have powerfists though?

kenshin620 wrote:Dont oblits have powerfists though?

They might but they will be hitting with initiative 1.

I'd rather Oblits be killing a scout squad rather then my tanks. Good point.

I do use Vulkan, and I know that they feild very few of the fast attack options. But I was trying to field a 3k list for a large game (following FoC) and wasn't able to after filling up my HQ, Elite and Heavy spots. The only fast attack was a 10 man Assault squad (which I loath to use >_> ). So, I figured I could get a few more troops (Scouts that I have sitting around) and some Fast attack (Even if it is un-Salamander).

4 KP's would be a problem in those games. In those games, I might just outflank them anyway (Regardless of first or second), for a better choice of location when they do come in. I'm quite sure there will still be tanks/shooters to hit by the 3rd/4th turn.

I would love to see bubble wraps, just to have my Whirlwinds blast them, and use my storm's scouts to assault them. And worst case scenario, the bubble wrapped tank gets a cover save from my twin linked Multi-Melta on the Storm.

Thanks for the advice. I believe my next purchase will be some Land Speeder Storms.

Sentai_Sage wrote:

I would love to see bubble wraps, just to have my Whirlwinds blast them, and use my storm's scouts to assault them. And worst case scenario, the bubble wrapped tank gets a cover save from my twin linked Multi-Melta on the Storm.

Don't underestimate the bubble wraps. They actually do the most before the game starts (and thus before whirlwinds get to shoot) by preventing your storms from scout moving close to what they're protecting. The best bubble wrap units are cheap, expendable, infiltrating units like scouts, kroot, ratlings, so killing them or assaulting them doesn't really do you much good because they've already done their job of depriving you of your alpha strike.

I take heavy flamers to clear the bubble wrap. Also remember even if they force you to set up 12 inches away. you can roll in 12 disembark 2 and assault 6. Just get to where you want, and heavy flame the crap out of the way. Vulkan will twin link it and do extra damage as well.

Kroot are great bubble wrap, but die to flamers in droves, especially 2+ re-roll wounding flamers.

Prodigalson wrote:I take heavy flamers to clear the bubble wrap. Also remember even if they force you to set up 12 inches away. you can roll in 12 disembark 2 and assault 6. Just get to where you want, and heavy flame the crap out of the way. Vulkan will twin link it and do extra damage as well.

Kroot are great bubble wrap, but die to flamers in droves, especially 2+ re-roll wounding flamers.

The problem with that is you have to finish moving in your movement phase before you can shoot so if he set up his bubble wrap right you wont be in charge range of anything important and will likely loose your scouts and their ride on their turn. You have to pay an awful lot of points to get that first turn charge. To make it work you would have to build the whole list around it and i suspect that list would have to include vulcan. I have never seen it work because ive never seen anyone take a serious LSS list. Everyone ive ever seen take one just had one and it looked like an after thought. A very expensive after thought...

kenshin620 wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:I run a LS Storm and CCW scouts.

Give them a powerfist, and as everybody else has said, throw them at a high-value target. My favorite targets are Devastators, Havocs, Oblits, etc. Stuff not ment to be in combat.

Dont oblits have powerfists though?

yes, they do.

You got 4 meatshields to go through before the oblits hit the all-important powerfist. that and 3 power fist attacks on the charge will generally splat what the regular scouts will not.

This works very well. I use the tactic often and have written a few articles on the unit and the tactics that work well with it. You can find them on the website in my signature.

Another cool thing about the storm is their "scout" rule is nice even if you don't take scouts. If I want to take 1 or 2 MM equipped LS I prefer the storm so I can use their scout move rather than rely on deep striking since I find DS LS to be ineffective but YMMV.

Unless you are running Vulkan, the cost for a less durable and less accurate but faster speeder seems......questionable. Though as you say, YMMV.

Ya, I should have mentioned that I run Vulkan which makes that little tactic work.

Sanctjud wrote:Unless you are running Vulkan, the cost for a less durable and less accurate but faster speeder seems......questionable. Though as you say, YMMV.

It looks like both the Storm and regular Land Speeder equally durable. Am I missing something?

I too run Vulkan. Really the only reason I'm looking at a BS 3 Multi-melta. And I kinda like the scout rule and transport option, compaired to a regular's extra weapon and extra point of BS. The unit is growing on me.

Land Speeders aren't really in the Fluff of salamanders so I wouldn't use them

I agree with Flavius Infernus; the LSS is probably not worth it, competitively speaking, except in a Vulkan list.

Phototoxin wrote:Land Speeders aren't really in the Fluff of salamanders so I wouldn't use them

I mentioned it earlier, but I agree. I normally wouldn't, and normally won't. BUT I need some fast attack choices to fill out my FoC at large point games. And there are no other options under the fast attack that are fluffy ('cept for Vanguard vets. but... I really really don't want to feild vanguard vets.)

So, for the perpose of fielding for large points matches, I needed to take a unit or two of non-fluff fast attack. Is there a better "fluff" unit to choose?

Sentai_Sage wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:Unless you are running Vulkan, the cost for a less durable and less accurate but faster speeder seems......questionable. Though as you say, YMMV.

It looks like both the Storm and regular Land Speeder equally durable. Am I missing something?

I too run Vulkan. Really the only reason I'm looking at a BS 3 Multi-melta. And I kinda like the scout rule and transport option, compaired to a regular's extra weapon and extra point of BS. The unit is growing on me.

LLS is open topped and will crumble if anything breaths on it.

i ran a unit of 5 CCW scouts with a PF in a LSS at Ard boys and they did very well.

they claimed a Basilisk Battery(3 auto hitting PF attacks hitting Av10 opentopped), a Blood Claw squad, a Long fang squad, and a BA Devestator squad during the course of the day.

i had them outflank the entire time. this made my opponents lery of the board edges. an 18" assault threat is something to consider.

Sentai_Sage wrote:
It looks like both the Storm and regular Land Speeder equally durable. Am I missing something?

Open topped, and can't get the protection of a squadron.

Ah, forgot about the open-topped. +1 on the chart. Oh well. I'll just have to put no stock in it surviving being shot at. At least with this set up, either with it outflanking or scout moving, I'll get to hit first.


...unless they steal my initiative

I resolve, after today, that I will be outflanking my Storm every time now, whether I have first turn or not.

The late-game objective grab is usually going to be worth more than popping a tank turn one, particularly if you have plenty of mobile AT already.

The alpha strike ability is worth its weight in gold.

Pretend you dont have vulkan for a min. If you take a 165 point unit that has a fist and a multimelta, you can threaten pretty much everything in the game on turn 1.

Guard parkinglots? Storm assault before they move is awesome. Oblits? Powerfist will kill 1-2 even if the 6 counter attacks wipe 5 models, reducing chaos shooting signifigantly. Ork lootas? Locked in combat keeping av11 safe. Razorspam? Kills two razorbacks roughly before they get to go.

In short, turn 1 assaults can make or break an opposing army, thus why not take storm squads if you have the points?

DevianID wrote:
Guard parkinglots? Storm assault before they move is awesome. Oblits? Powerfist will kill 1-2 even if the 6 counter attacks wipe 5 models, reducing chaos shooting signifigantly. Ork lootas? Locked in combat keeping av11 safe. Razorspam? Kills two razorbacks roughly before they get to go.

You're overlooking all the counters that an opponent might make here, Devian. Starting in reserve doesn't cost a razor spam or guard mech army any significant firepower. Or, any of the armies you've listed here can bubblewrap.

You can't depend on a turn 1 assault, because a reasonably competent opponent can always counter it. A LS Storm does have an effect on deployment, but that effect almost never includes a turn 1 assault.

You're overlooking all the counters that an opponent might make here, Devian. Starting in reserve doesn't cost a razor spam or guard mech army any significant firepower. Or, any of the armies you've listed here can bubblewrap.

'Your faith in your friends is your weakness!'
'Your overconfidence is yours!'

As an aside, if the opponent deploys in reserve, it costs him an entire TURN of shooting at a minimum. That means he lost 17% of his firepower if he rolls a 4+ for his entire army on turn 2. A 17% minimum reduction in power in order to counter a 10% cost unit is a vast trade up Flavius.

And to bubblewrap: a good player can counter bubblewrap, just like bubblewrap can stymie a bad player's assault.

The issue is that the counter for the 165 point unit is almost never 165 points or less, often the counter requires more than 165 points to overcome. Such as reserve options which take your entire army out of the game for at least 1 turn, probably more.

DevianID wrote:
Guard parkinglots? Storm assault before they move is awesome. Oblits? Powerfist will kill 1-2 even if the 6 counter attacks wipe 5 models, reducing chaos shooting signifigantly. Ork lootas? Locked in combat keeping av11 safe. Razorspam? Kills two razorbacks roughly before they get to go.

who starts obliterators on the board? won't they just be reserved?

the other ideas are good though.