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So I got my new DE codex yesterday (yay preorders!) and I have to say... after reading it over in depth....

Phil Kelly is a racist.

Subscribed.

Go on.

Gitzbitah wrote:Go on.

Yes. Please do. Its hard to let a statement go without any rationale.

MOAR!

Ok

So

1 EW - Drazor, his points are now 230 and he counts as an HQ

Vect is 240 Points, for a T3 non-ew and if you want his dias you have to pay 200 points and then you MUST put 9 additional people in it (not up to 9, it HAS to be 9 guys) bringing his cost up to over 440 points.

There are like 14 HQ selections, 9 elites choices, 6 Heavy support choices, 4 FA and 2 troops (warriors and wyches, obviously)

Decapitator is an HQ (not an Elite, like he should be)

Urien does not auto wound anymore, but he does cuase ID on a 3+ (but its not a powerweapon), andhe gives Pain tokens to d3 units of Grotesques and Wracks (wracks are a new elite choice that are like "baby haemonculi").

power from pain is OK, (FnP Talos/Grotesques is nice, but making many units that are already fearless, fearless, is kinda a waste) but without taking something like a Cronos Parasite Engine(A somewhat talos varient, aka t7 MC HS slot), you probably wont see many tokens (im guessing an average of 4-6 per game without things like Animus Vitae and the Cronos engine).

You can give all of your raiders/ravs/venoms a 5+ invul, which is kinda nice, but doing calculation, to get survivable raiders, you are dropping about 90+ points per raider.

The "Phil Kelly is a Racist" comment was directed at the fact that his 5th edition Imperial books completely devestate this book, and it seems the DE are no longer as much of a meq slayer as a geq slayer. Also, it confirms the rumor that Phil Kelly hate Tyranids (as this dex COMPLETELY smashes Gav's nid book).


Any other specific questions? Slow day at work and I have the codex with me.

Awww.... I expected a much more vitriolic attack on Phil Kelly's racist tendencies. Thanks for the rundown.

edited for proper adjective form of vitriol. Vitreous refers to a glassy substance, which was not my intent at all. My vocabulary has expanded slightly.

BTW, fun fact that I lold at when I first read it.

GWFAQ wrote:Q. Does Lelith Hesperax gain the advantages of
the combat drugs her retinue has?
A. She does, otherwise she would be the only
Wych in the army (and probably in the universe)
not to use combat drugs.

Lelith Hesperax is now the only wych in the universe not to use combat drugs (according to her fluff in the new dex, this is how it has always been for her)

Whats your overall rating on the dex? Would you recommend players to get it if they are looking for a new army? Are they tough to play? (like tau) or an up tier army when played with the right units? I was going to get DE as my army after my current but i'm reconsidering.

BTW, in case people think I am talking out my ass...

If you notice, I put the DAR in DARk elDAR in red, as a form of "proof" that this is mine.


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daemon wrote:Whats your overall rating on the dex? Would you recommend players to get it if they are looking for a new army? Are they tough to play? (like tau) or an up tier army when played with the right units? I was going to get DE as my army after my current but i'm reconsidering.

1) 6.5/10

2) No, unless you have alot of nid/eldar/ork players in your area, or really like pretty models.

3) Tau = Tough? I thought standing 70 inches away pelting people with str 10 ap 1 was easy... but I guess I'm a silly git! Anywho, they are not NEARLY as hard as they used to be, but they aren't all that great either. Luck is now a HUGE factor with these guys.

3.5) I'll have to do a bit of playtesting before I can give a final answer, but from how I have been reading it, they seem to be at the same "Competition level" as Chaos Daemons (40k not fantasy). However, if you do plan on playing them, and you used to have a DE army, you'd better hope you didn't throw away your Hellions/Mandrakes.

The "kicks the crap out of Nids" fact pretty much kicked me in the fact as soon as I read the codex, but I didn't think about Imperial codices, and their interaction with the new DE.

Eenteresteeng.

My biggest problem is that, unlike 5e Imperial codices, this codex is riddled with absolute powerhouse units that preclude the use of some of the more fun-looking units. There are a number of choices I feel like I have to take that blot out the choices I think would be fun to take. Example: I can't justify taking a Talos when I can instead take two Ravagers and a Voidraven. I can't justify taking Beastmasters when I can instead spam Incubi. Why take Decapitator when Lelith and some Haemonculi will probably do the job I want, better? And I was so hoping there'd be a reason to take Harlequins, because I love Harlequins, but they're just as overpriced when you try to make them useful as they were in 4e Eldar.

Contrast Codex: Space Marines, where most if not every unit has a function in a given list. There are a couple of useless choices, but nowhere near the volume I see in the new DE codex.

And I sadface.

Thanks for the review. Looks like i'll be waiting for the next tau codex then for now. I can't wait for more reviews and play tests on the DE codex though.

Well tau are hard to play in the sense of unit composition and placement i suppose.

Although i have to admit i am tempted by the new sculpts for the DE as the tau molds are old and pretty poor in my opinion. At least for the fire warriors. I'm painting some at the moment and the details are a pain to paint.

SaintHazard wrote:My biggest problem is that, unlike 5e Imperial codices, this codex is riddled with absolute powerhouse units that preclude the use of some of the more fun-looking units. There are a number of choices I feel like I have to take that blot out the choices I think would be fun to take. Example: I can't justify taking a Talos when I can instead take two Ravagers and a Voidraven. I can't justify taking Beastmasters when I can instead spam Incubi. Why take Decapitator when Lelith and some Haemonculi will probably do the job I want, better? And I was so hoping there'd be a reason to take Harlequins, because I love Harlequins, but they're just as overpriced when you try to make them useful as they were in 4e Eldar.

I know it sounds broken, but TBH, they should have given the DE a way to remove FO all togeather (Other then the 2 troop 1 HQ minimum), so that people could make more "fun and interesting lists" (They would still need troops, for scoring, and they would still be limited to 17 total slots ((14 custom choice, 3 req))

Oh also how are the harlequins besides being overpriced? What is the fluff on that? I'm not familiar with eldar/dark eldar fluff.

Haven't played a lot of DE with the old codex.
One thing that I felt (maybe incorrectly due to inexperience) was that a lot of the points values and choice limitations were rather restrictive.

This I hoped would change with the new book.
Have these hopes been dashed?

Was also wanting to use Harlies

It is always nice when someone makes a statment based first impression and nothing else.

Not many viable hqs have EW, I know Logan and DP have it but lack of EW hasn't stop people from using Mephiston (who is more expensive than Vect and loses to Vect 1 on 1) or Vulcan or Farseers. Archon's court allows Nob level of wound allocation and Drazhar is absolutely impervious against hidden PK/PF because of his crazy ass jump.

Urien now has Clone Field and t5 and mad regen, doesn't cost much either, he is a Coven version of Archon, Decapitator is not very useful though.

You can get free pain tokens with Haemonculi, Drugs and shooting kills also give them.

Dark Eldar absolutely murder meq just mathhammer it out if you want to know their average effectiveness. There are some things that most of the people can't see immediately, like Hekatrix killing TH/SS termies reliably.

Dark Eldar won't be easy use though but that is for entirely different reasons than what you mentioned. Rapid Fire is their bane as always, multishot weapons like HW Bolters, Scatter Lasers and Multi Lasers are going to be pain in the arse too but those weaknesses have always been there.

Fixed spelling, I hope.

Erm

What does "Arhcon's cout allows Nob level of wound allocation " mean please.

whatever it is, it sounds painful and I am crossing my legs whincing at the mere thought of it!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Erm

What does "Arhcon's cout allows Nob level of wound allocation " mean please.

whatever it is, it sounds painful and I am crossing my legs whincing at the mere thought of it!

The Court is basically a whole bunch of models each with different equipment. Allows for wound-allocation shenanigans a la Nobz, reduces the number of wounds you actually take since you roll for each model separately.

Although I thought (can't remember, don't have the codex in my hands) that the Archon was the only multi-wound model in that unit?

Thanks for clarifying Saint.
Wasn't having a dig at you Aetherse btw
just that my brain wasn't working to fill in the missing consonants correctly

@Saint:
Nobs have 2 wounds. Makes a huge damn difference.
(Assuming the Court models only have 1 wound that is).

Aetherse wrote:
Not many viable hqs have EW, I know Logan and DP have it but lack of EW hasn't stop people from using Mephiston (who is more expensive than Vect and loses to Vect 1 on 1) or Vulcan or Farseers. Archon's cout allows Nob level of wound allocation and Drazhar is absolutely impervious against hidden PK/PF because of his crazy ass jump.

Sanguinor

Any wolflord (saga of bear)

Any Rune Priest (Saga of bear)

Codex: Chaos Daemons (the entire dex)

Abbadon

Phoenix lords

just to name a few (there are many more)


Also, how do you figure Mephiston loses to Vect?

Assuming Vect has charge, vect will have 7 attacks missing 3 rerolling missting 1 causing 4 wounds(he does not reroll these). Mephiston strikes back hitting 3, rerolling, hitting 4(assuming vect fails his ld 6 test, which is more then likely). Wounding 2 rerolling wounding 3. if even 1 of these wounds passes the invul, vect dies. (Str 6 double toughs him). Also, BA have MUCH better ways of keeping mephiston safe (LRs and SRs to name a few) and buff units like S-Priests. Mephiston is also a lot more likely to get the charge (with 24" effective charge range) which further limits vects ability.

Also, Vect gets 1 shotted by a psycannon. So boo on him.

Aetherse wrote:
Urien now has Clone Field and t5 and mad regen, doesn't cost much either, he is a Coven version of Archon, Decapitator is not very useful though.

Urien's clone field is good in CC I guess, but outside of that, the lack of invul makes him very vunerable to much of the str 10 out there (believe me, there is alot). Also, 1 wound a turn is not "mad regen". He only has 3 total and he costs 190 points, and takes a FULL hq slot (not 1 of 3 Haemonculi).

Aetherse wrote:
You can get free pain tokens with Haemonculi, Drugs and shooting kills also give them.

Free pain tokens from haemonculi? Where did you read this? Do you mean the 1 pain token they get at the beginning of the game? Cool! Still not going to break that 4-6 average I listed.

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar absolutely murder meq just mathhammer it out if you want to know their average effectiveness. There are some things that most of the people can't see immediately, like Hekatrix killing TH/SS termies reliably.

Cool, too bad not all meq are TH/SS termies. The new DE are not NEARLY as good as they used to be against MEQ...

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar won't be easy use though but that is for entirely different reasons than what you mentioned. Rapid Fire is their bane as always, multishot weapons like HW Bolters, Scatter Lasers and Multi Lasers are going to be pain in the arse too but those weaknesses have always been there.

I'm guessing you don't have the new dex... only 1 weapon is RF, and if you mean them taking shots by RF, then it really depends on what is shooting them... I honestly believe you are still in the 3rd edition DE mindset based on what you have posted...

daemon wrote:Oh also how are the harlequins besides being overpriced? What is the fluff on that? I'm not familiar with eldar/dark eldar fluff.

The fluff on Harlis is that they exist outside of both DE and Eldar society, they are friend to both (DE love watching them dance) and they seem to want to reunite the Eldar race as a whole.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Haven't played a lot of DE with the old codex.
One thing that I felt (maybe incorrectly due to inexperience) was that a lot of the points values and choice limitations were rather restrictive.

yes

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
This I hoped would change with the new book.
Have these hopes been dashed?

yes

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Was also wanting to use Harlies

so sorry... if you want to waste your elites slots, more power to you, but they really don't have much of a home in the DE dex with the 7 other elites chocies....


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SaintHazard wrote:Although I thought (can't remember, don't have the codex in my hands) that the Archon was the only multi-wound model in that unit?

SSlyths have 2 wounds, you can have up to 3. They are T5 FNP units.

So basically business as usual for DE players? I don't mind really at least we have some more options for us and I honestly think we have a better chance against imperial dex's than before. Also mephiston dies to a normal archon pretty easily, so I have no doubt that vect could beat him without trying. I don't know what the math hammer is but meh, mephi might win out if you do it that way but if he goes against an archon with a huskblade he just has to wound him once to get rid of him. (really sad when I did it because I tried to use soul trap and I forgot mephi, isn't a IC or a MC)

I do have one gripe for the new DE codex, Void ravens and razorwings cost more or about the same than a vendetta/valk/stormraven but only has AV 11 and one special rule that the others don't. I just kinda expected that a eldar "flyer" would outclass anything the imperials could bring but oh well.

Thanks for the information. Just noted that my Pre order is now listed as "dispatched" on GW's site. So shouldn't have to wait long for my copy + models. Good times ahead indeed!

Also, how do you figure Mephiston loses to Vect?

Assuming Vect has charge, vect will have 7 attacks missing 3 rerolling missting 1 causing 4 wounds(he does not reroll these). Mephiston strikes back hitting 3, rerolling, hitting 4(assuming vect fails his ld 6 test, which is more then likely). Wounding 2 rerolling wounding 3. if even 1 of these wounds passes the invul, vect dies. (Str 6 double toughs him). Also, BA have MUCH better ways of keeping mephiston safe (LRs and SRs to name a few) and buff units like S-Priests. Mephiston is also a lot more likely to get the charge (with 24" effective charge range) which further limits vects ability.

Also, Vect gets 1 shotted by a psycannon. So boo on him.

Vect shouldn't go alone, he should always have t4 or t5 buffer around him. And he relies on his 2+ save yeah he dies if he fails it, big deal, he is still more likely to kill charging Mephiston with succesful Transfixing Gaze than not. And the seize initiave on 4+ might win you a game. Vect is a gamble but the odds aren't that bad.

Free pain tokens from haemonculi? Where did you read this? Do you mean the 1 pain token they get at the beginning of the game? Cool! Still not going to break that 4-6 average I listed.

Yeah Heamonculi sharing the pain was what I meant. FNP is amazing defense against everything DE are afraid, like bolters and lasguns. The overall number of tokens doesn't measure anything, DE aren't balanced around having full power from pain.

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar absolutely murder meq just mathhammer it out if you want to know their average effectiveness. There are some things that most of the people can't see immediately, like Hekatrix killing TH/SS termies reliably.

Cool, too bad not all meq are TH/SS termies. The new DE are not NEARLY as good as they used to be against MEQ...

How could that be? We lost plasma cannons but gained 4+ wounding splinter weapons and the new disintegrators still kill meqs like no tomorrow. Besides that everything got better, incubi murder everything that relies on armor save, our flamers can deny armor saves and we can have them on troops. Beastmasters and hellions are now actually useful, shardnets are better than wych weapons were because they can remove more than 1 attack if you have several of them in base contact. And then there are all the large blasts our new HS units can throw out.

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar won't be easy use though but that is for entirely different reasons than what you mentioned. Rapid Fire is their bane as always, multishot weapons like HW Bolters, Scatter Lasers and Multi Lasers are going to be pain in the arse too but those weaknesses have always been there.

I'm guessing you don't have the new dex... only 1 weapon is RF, and if you mean them taking shots by RF, then it really depends on what is shooting them... I honestly believe you are still in the 3rd edition DE mindset based on what you have posted...

Yeah I meant that DE are going to be shot to pieces by RF weapons and I did mean each and every one of them. Lasgun? Kills T3 easily. Bolter? Kills our vehicles. Dark Eldar didn't really change much from the 3rd ed. We still lose fast and win faster. Our units must not get shot because they can't take it. When DE they can survive much better because they can't be shot at and strike almost always first so that enemy attacks are reduced greatly. But as I already said we absolutely cannot get shot at.

I really don't see why your are bashing the codex, it is balanced and only has few bad units. The only difference from the old one is that you have to take something that can kill in melee because you can't rely on 3 Disintegrator Ravagers to shoot everyone and their mothers.

Luthon1234 wrote:So basically business as usual for DE players? I don't mind really at least we have some more options for us and I honestly think we have a better chance against imperial dex's than before. Also mephiston dies to a normal archon pretty easily, so I have no doubt that vect could beat him without trying. I don't know what the math hammer is but meh, mephi might win out if you do it that way but if he goes against an archon with a huskblade he just has to wound him once to get rid of him. (really sad when I did it because I tried to use soul trap and I forgot mephi, isn't a IC or a MC)

The reason old archons had it better typically had to do with Retinues/Combat Drugs and broken Shadowfields.

New archons don't get combat drugs (they are long gone as we once knew them)

Vect has a shadow field, but now you roll each wound individually for the shadow fields (so if you take three, you could lose it on the first and not get it for the remainder... which sucks big time) Vect doesn't have a husk blade, and any archon with a huskblade is wounding him on a 6 (normal archons are also striking second/simul (Depending on if mephi has a nearby priest/power thru pain)

We lost alot of our anti-meq shooting from the last dex, and are now even more fragile then before (haemonculi having 6+s is lame as hell...)

Luthon1234 wrote:I do have one gripe for the new DE codex, Void ravens and razorwings cost more or about the same than a vendetta/valk/stormraven but only has AV 11 and one special rule that the others don't. I just kinda expected that a eldar "flyer" would outclass anything the imperials could bring but oh well.

Ravens and wings can move 12" and fire all guns, and move 36" when turbo boosting. (Also, having "bombers" while not in apoc is nice). I think they outclass valks/vendis when it comes to manuverability, just not when it comes to armor (you can however, give them 5+ invuls, which is funny)

I think trueborn are amazing,

i heard you like 4 blasters 2 lances in a squad

Imo

Duke + wytches + warriors + trueborn + archon w/ some wound abuse -> golden list

Overall I agree with the OP - the dex is extremely underwhelming.

There are awesome bits like cheap as heck Ravagers, and the awesome choice of Razorwings and Voidravens, but really, there are more disappointing aspects than positive.

Saint Hazard nailed it: so many units are overcosted/not worth taking, which you rarely see in a 5th Edition 'dex.

Plus pretty much every special HQ choice is poop outside of maybe Lelith (provided the meta doesn't get wise to the fact that she has S3).

Also, there's really no need to prove that you actually have the 'dex. It's been out for weeks at stores, and online at dubious places in it's entirety for about a week now.

Edit: At OP - the only thing wrong I found in this assessment so far is the fact that Archon's don't get combat drugs. You can pay like 10 points for a drug dispenser.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
1) 6.5/10

2) No, unless you have alot of nid/eldar/ork players in your area, or really like pretty models.

3) Tau = Tough? I thought standing 70 inches away pelting people with str 10 ap 1 was easy... but I guess I'm a silly git! Anywho, they are not NEARLY as hard as they used to be, but they aren't all that great either. Luck is now a HUGE factor with these guys.

3.5) I'll have to do a bit of playtesting before I can give a final answer, but from how I have been reading it, they seem to be at the same "Competition level" as Chaos Daemons (40k not fantasy). However, if you do plan on playing them, and you used to have a DE army, you'd better hope you didn't throw away your Hellions/Mandrakes.

No offense, but I couldn't disagree with you MORE except that they may not be for everyone. Good players will dominate with these guys and noobs will get hammered and demoralized. They aren't dummyproof and obvious, such as IG, SW, or BA, so maybe that comes across as middling or average. It is a good to great codex that is well constructed throughout the entire book, with many excellent units that work within different builds. They have exceptional synergy and duality within the army. They are not dependent on luck any more than any other codex and frankly I have zero idea where to even begin to deconstruct that unless you think going first and alpha striking is all they have to offer (Hint: not even close).

I would expect that you will see several DE armies finding success at competitive tournaments throughout the coming year and it won't just be the same Raider/Lance spam armies of the last 10+ years. Those that are disappointed/underwhelmed need to look deeper. If you're expecting it to slap you in the face, you're missing the entire point of the codex. I've been reading a leaked codex for a couple weeks and have a couple dozen lists built around different concepts that use pretty much every unit in the book in some fashion or another. There is, flat out, no codex that I will fear and only a handful of builds that I will even sweat. Yes, IMO, they are THAT good if you can make them work.

Magnalon wrote:Overall I agree with the OP - the dex is extremely underwhelming.

There are awesome bits like cheap as heck Ravagers, and the awesome choice of Razorwings and Voidravens, but really, there are more disappointing aspects than positive.

Saint Hazard nailed it: so many units are overcosted/not worth taking, which you rarely see in a 5th Edition 'dex.

Plus pretty much every special HQ choice is poop outside of maybe Lelith (provided the meta doesn't get wise to the fact that she has S3).

Also, there's really no need to prove that you actually have the 'dex. It's been out for weeks at stores, and online at dubious places in it's entirety for about a week now.

Edit: At OP - the only thing wrong I found in this assessment so far is the fact that Archon's don't get combat drugs. You can pay like 10 points for a drug dispenser.

She also has Furious Charge, so she's S4 on the charge. And if you're not getting the charge with Lelith... you may be doing it wrong.

Ennkay wrote:I think trueborn are amazing,

i heard you like 4 blasters 2 lances in a squad

Imo

Duke + wytches + warriors + trueborn + archon w/ some wound abuse -> golden list

Trueborn would be better if they werent elites. Also, you would more likely go Blasterx4 Cannon x2, Lances are still haevy, so that limits your mobility...

Archon w/wound abuse is costing you 135 min (no upgrades or xports) only the Archon and the Sslyth have more then 1 wound and you can't abuse with multiple Sslyths (they do not have customisable wargear)

Wyches are really the only thing to take for troops, warriors are gak now (cost more points base too) and you would have 1 unit of anti tank..

So basically, for your "golden list" costing... 135(min for archon and friends) + 150 for duke + 182 for the 6 trueborn(with 4 blasters and two lances) + 50 for wyches (min cost) + 45 for kabalite warriors(again min cost) puts you at ~550 points (562 points for those who want the exact number) vindicators cost 145 points each. A single vindicator would devestate the "golden" list.


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Magnalon wrote:
Edit: At OP - the only thing wrong I found in this assessment so far is the fact that Archon's don't get combat drugs. You can pay like 10 points for a drug dispenser.

I meant in the old sense of their combat druges (choosing abilities and rolling die = number of abilities hoping to not get doubles)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skarboy wrote:
I would expect that you will see several DE armies finding success at competitive tournaments throughout the coming year and it won't just be the same Raider/Lance spam armies of the last 10+ years. Those that are disappointed/underwhelmed need to look deeper. If you're expecting it to slap you in the face, you're missing the entire point of the codex. I've been reading a leaked codex for a couple weeks and have a couple dozen lists built around different concepts that use pretty much every unit in the book in some fashion or another. There is, flat out, no codex that I will fear and only a handful of builds that I will even sweat. Yes, IMO, they are THAT good if you can make them work.

Care to give an example of a list(from the new codex) that would fear only a handful of builds?

Cause really, its the other way around. Only a handful of builds (none really all that competitive) have anything to fear from this new DE dex.