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Saw it brought up in another thread and wanted to make it its own discussion point here.

At the end of thousand sons=

So is this final proof the blood ravens are thousand sons’ successors? If so how do they avoid the mutation? How do you think they lost the record of their origins?

Its probably there to heavily imply just that. I can't see any other reason why the author would include it other than to fuel the fire so to speak.

As to the mutations, who knows, maybe Tzeentch wants a break from creating horribly gribblies? Or because they weren't in the warp with the other Thousand Sons when the rubric was cast it affected then differently and no-one became Armour with dust inside.

As to loosing the record of their origins, there are two ways of looking at it from my point of view.
Firstly, if we know anything about the Imperium its that its big and takes forever to do anything. The documents of founding and geneseed markers may just be at the bottom of the pile of paper in room 2547812 of archive J on the 15th floor down in some office block on Terra.

Alternatively, if the Blood Ravens were never founded as such, then there wouldn't be any records of it. This does require a stretch of imagination I admit. Image for one second that somewhere in the Galaxy there was a fleet of thousand sons that didn't return to Prospero and subsequently were never attacked by the Space Wolves. If they reappeared eventualy in the Imperium after the Heresy (due to warp storm, engine failure, just bad time keeping etc) they would likely discover that their Legion had gone rogue and make the decision to turn traitor too or stay loyal
Now of course they wouldn't be able to keep the same heraldry or colour scheme as the original Legion or the Wolves would be on them before they could say 'uh-oh'. So after a quick repaint and a new Chapter symbol and name hey presto a new Chapter. Simple enough to then claim you had been legitimately founded, that the Administrum had messed up (again) and go on their merry way. Of course, over the years those who knew the truth within the Chapter would die and if the knowledge wasn't passed on (which it wasn't for fear of leaks to outsiders) the Chapter would eventually beleive it actually had lost all founding records

Thats my ramble on the subject anyway. Pick it apart as you will

The C.S. Goto novels alluded to this. But many do not consider these canon so YMMV.

Reading gotos novels is like reading 40k tabloids, just way too out there. So i wouldnt know. Deff think it gives blood ravens a interesting flavor and actually begins to draw them into the tabletop fluff and away from the DOW swill.

Laughing God wrote:Reading gotos novels is like reading 40k tabloids, just way too out there. So i wouldnt know. Deff think it gives blood ravens a interesting flavor and actually begins to draw them into the tabletop fluff and away from the DOW swill.

from swill they come and swill they shall always be. they're an upstart chapter riding a colossal wave of popular, retro-fitted, video game fluff into the actual canon of 40k and it angers me to no end.

Storm Lord wrote:As to the mutations, who knows, maybe Tzeentch wants a break from creating horribly gribblies? Or because they weren't in the warp with the other Thousand Sons when the rubric was cast it affected then differently and no-one became Armour with dust inside.

The mutations that affected the thousand sons occured long before the original legion arrived on prospero, it was magnus that some how healed them. the mutations that lead to the rubic occured after the legion turned to chaos. Its the flaws in the geneseed that are the issue, so the blood ravens (if they are thousands sons) must have been on propero at some point but not present during the space wolves attack.

two histories could be:
1. that the marines were off world at the time of the attack, saw magnus's turn to chaos, they were so disgusted they repainted their armour, changed their name and carried on fighting for the IoM.
2. They were trapped in the warp during the thousands sons fall to chaos, come out still loyal, see the IoM after the Horus heresy and find prospero destroyed, they then form the blood ravens as in idea 1.

Either way, the idea of them being thousand sons descended is one of the reasons I like the chapter. The old guard, still struggling to carry on the original ideals of the legion after the majority of the legion betrayed everything they stood for...

What with the Thousand Sons vision of the lost sons and a raven of blood, the high amount of librarians, thirst for knowledge and the events in the Goto books as mentioned it's pretty likely.

Could be a cursed founding chapter made from Thousand Sons geneseed. The IA article on the cursed founding implied that Fabius Bile had something to do with it.

Could have disastrous implications for them down the line

All very interesting. Honestly want to see GW continue to carry them away from DOW and actually include them in some codex background. Perhaps make a BL story of them coming face to face with a Greater Daemon of tzeench alluding to thier past and tempting them to be more than there forbearers ever could. IDK, but it seems most agree with the fact they are successors to the 1ksons

well I'll tell you this much, after the events of DOWII that chapter is looking at an upswing of Inquisitorial interest considering that the chapters is at war with itself

Ya or the inquisition could just use grey knights and wipe them all out. Either way id be equally entertained. Then maybe DOW could follow a chapter that actually matters in fluff.

Laughing God wrote:Ya or the inquisition could just use grey knights and wipe them all out. Either way id be equally entertained. Then maybe DOW could follow a chapter that actually matters in fluff.

I'll drink to that!

I really don't care much for this chapter either I really can't stand their color scheme maroon with a manilla colored cream blech thats so fething nasty

Pilau Rice wrote:Could be a cursed founding chapter made from Thousand Sons geneseed. The IA article on the cursed founding implied that Fabius Bile had something to do with it.

I had originally thought that this was the most likely explanation. But one of the Loading screens in DoWII mentions that the Blood Ravens' records only date back to a particularly significant Imperium civil war. I don't remember the exact wording, but it's implied that the civil war in question is the Horus Heresy. If that were the case, then presumably the Chapter's records begin shortly after the Second Founding.

Then maybe DOW could follow a chapter that actually matters in fluff.

Then Relic would have other issues to contend with.

"Waaaaah! They made my Ultramarines turn traitor on each other!"

Like the Blood Ravens or not, the fact that Relic is using them means that Relic has more room to develop them with less interference from either the fans or GW. The fact that they are Relic's chapter means that Relic can do largely whatever they want with them so long as it doesn't break the overall 40K fluff. If they'd used the Imperial Fists, for instance, then they'd never have been able to get away with the revelation at the end of the DoWII expansion that the GW would have stepped in and prohibited it. And too many fans would have thrown temper tantrums.

Honestly want to see GW continue to carry them away from DOW and actually include them in some codex background. Perhaps make a BL story of them coming face to face with a Greater Daemon of tzeench alluding to thier past and tempting them to be more than there forbearers ever could.

GW did do more with them.

Sadly, they used Mr. Goto to bring that about.

I would imagine that the Blood Ravens will stay quietly out of the codices (aside from things like the appearence of one in the 5th Edition Space Marine Codex Gallery) until Relic is done with them. Less stepping on toes that way, and Relic remains free to develop the chapter as they see fit.

After Relic is finished, though, well...

They're popular. And provided he doesn't turn traitor, I'm confident that Captain Gabriel Angelos will have an entry in the 10th Edition Space Marine codex.

Storm Lord wrote:Its probably there to heavily imply just that. I can't see any other reason why the author would include it other than to fuel the fire so to speak.

As to the mutations, who knows, maybe Tzeentch wants a break from creating horribly gribblies? Or because they weren't in the warp with the other Thousand Sons when the rubric was cast it affected then differently and no-one became Armour with dust inside.

As to loosing the record of their origins, there are two ways of looking at it from my point of view.
Firstly, if we know anything about the Imperium its that its big and takes forever to do anything. The documents of founding and geneseed markers may just be at the bottom of the pile of paper in room 2547812 of archive J on the 15th floor down in some office block on Terra.

Alternatively, if the Blood Ravens were never founded as such, then there wouldn't be any records of it. This does require a stretch of imagination I admit. Image for one second that somewhere in the Galaxy there was a fleet of thousand sons that didn't return to Prospero and subsequently were never attacked by the Space Wolves. If they reappeared eventualy in the Imperium after the Heresy (due to warp storm, engine failure, just bad time keeping etc) they would likely discover that their Legion had gone rogue and make the decision to turn traitor too or stay loyal
Now of course they wouldn't be able to keep the same heraldry or colour scheme as the original Legion or the Wolves would be on them before they could say 'uh-oh'. So after a quick repaint and a new Chapter symbol and name hey presto a new Chapter. Simple enough to then claim you had been legitimately founded, that the Administrum had messed up (again) and go on their merry way. Of course, over the years those who knew the truth within the Chapter would die and if the knowledge wasn't passed on (which it wasn't for fear of leaks to outsiders) the Chapter would eventually beleive it actually had lost all founding records

Thats my ramble on the subject anyway. Pick it apart as you will

I like this very much. Makes a plausible argument.

There are a few other things. Ahriman's coterie of divinators were called the Corvidae, another reference to ravens. It is hinted in Dawn of War II's background information that their Great Father, Azhariah Vidya, may have performed acts of clairvoyance.

The earliest non-Blood Raven records are supposed to date back to M.36 or so. Supposedly they don't know their origins, and their compulsion to collect information is motivated by a search for the answer. However, the real intent behind this could be an effort to remove evidence of their origin from the hands of outsiders.

I like them. Several fun builds make sense for them, from the Master of the Forge to double Librarians using Gate of Infinity to Shrike's Shadow Company.

Certainly that was suggested by Thule-- that certain secrets would die with him.

Exopheric wrote:However, the real intent behind this could be an effort to remove evidence of their origin from the hands of outsiders.

Never *cough*Darkangels*cough* seen a chapter *cough*Darkangels*cough* do that sort of thing *cough*Darkangels*cough* before.


I think I need the cough syrup...

I sincerely doubt they're Dark Angels. They really just don't seem the type somehow.

Eumerin wrote:

Exopheric wrote:However, the real intent behind this could be an effort to remove evidence of their origin from the hands of outsiders.

Never *cough*Darkangels*cough* seen a chapter *cough*Darkangels*cough* do that sort of thing *cough*Darkangels*cough* before.


I think I need the cough syrup...

thats not what the dark angels do and seeing as dark angel succesors are quite open about being so and are involved in the inner circle, it doesn't make much sence

Well, the Blood Ravens' Librarium and the Dark Angels' Inner Circle would have similar truths to hide and similar reasons for doing so.

I do find it amusing that in DOW II the Blood Ravens artificers keep trying to make nice with the Space Wolves, and are constantly getting shot down XD

Which is another thing that links them to the Thousand Sons, heh.

Eumerin wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Could be a cursed founding chapter made from Thousand Sons geneseed. The IA article on the cursed founding implied that Fabius Bile had something to do with it.

I had originally thought that this was the most likely explanation. But one of the Loading screens in DoWII mentions that the Blood Ravens' records only date back to a particularly significant Imperium civil war. I don't remember the exact wording, but it's implied that the civil war in question is the Horus Heresy. If that were the case, then presumably the Chapter's records begin shortly after the Second Founding.

IA Blood Ravens

The majority of the records for the Chapter date back no further than early M37, though references to their service in the litanies of other chapters and Imperial Organisations prove that they existed and fought the enemies of the Emperor centuries before

Ok, so the cursed founding was the 21st that happened in M36, I guess DoW2 is referring to the Age of Apostasy, which happened just after the 21st Founding. If Thousand Sons Geneseed was used I guess the AdMech would want a trial period to see if the chapter proved loyal or showed signs of instability, possible keeping tabs on them bit not being able to prevent other Chapters or the Imperial forces from doing so.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Could be a cursed founding chapter made from Thousand Sons geneseed. The IA article on the cursed founding implied that Fabius Bile had something to do with it.

I had originally thought that this was the most likely explanation. But one of the Loading screens in DoWII mentions that the Blood Ravens' records only date back to a particularly significant Imperium civil war. I don't remember the exact wording, but it's implied that the civil war in question is the Horus Heresy. If that were the case, then presumably the Chapter's records begin shortly after the Second Founding.

IA Blood Ravens

The majority of the records for the Chapter date back no further than early M37, though references to their service in the litanies of other chapters and Imperial Organisations prove that they existed and fought the enemies of the Emperor centuries before

Ok, so the cursed founding was the 21st that happened in M36, I guess DoW2 is referring to the Age of Apostasy, which happened just after the 21st Founding. If Thousand Sons Geneseed was used I guess the AdMech would want a trial period to see if the chapter proved loyal or showed signs of instability, possible keeping tabs on them bit not being able to prevent other Chapters or the Imperial forces from doing so.

I was thinking age of apostasy as well when I heard that. But why take some of old Maguses Geneseed out of the fridge to make a new chapter? Miss labeled Rowboat no doubt...

Laughing God wrote:I was thinking age of apostasy as well when I heard that. But why take some of old Maguses Geneseed out of the fridge to make a new chapter? Miss labeled Rowboat no doubt...

For the same reason that they took some of the other traitor primarchs' geneseed out of the fridge - because they can! /retcon on because Fabius Bile tricked them into doing it! /retcon off


And... uh... that Dark Angels comment was purely tongue in cheek, btw. I don't seriously think that they have anything in common with the DA aside from what appears to be a certain amount of secretive interest regarding their past.

Well maybe they were wanting a chapter of psykers again, that they were lacking, but also wanted to remove the instability in the gene seed that the Thousands Sons had.

Time will tell if they too go rogue, the 5th Company has and there was the events in DoW2 ... might be that they are rather susceptible to the whispers of Tzeentch.

Pilau Rice wrote:Well maybe they were wanting a chapter of psykers again, that they were lacking, but also wanted to remove the instability in the gene seed that the Thousands Sons had.

Time will tell if they too go rogue, the 5th Company has and there was the events in DoW2 ... might be that they are rather susceptible to the whispers of Tzeentch.

gene seed doesn't give someone psychic powers and the IoM does have a chapter of psykers, the grey knights, the reason the thousand sons had so many psykers was that magnus recruited so many with psychic potential

BluntmanDC wrote:
gene seed doesn't give someone psychic powers and the IoM does have a chapter of psykers, the grey knights, the reason the thousand sons had so many psykers was that magnus recruited so many with psychic potential

It was the psychic imprint of Magnus on the Geneseed that gives the Thousand Sons their psychic powers, true, other marines gain this ability through time but this is the reason why the Thousand Sons had more than any other Chapter also why they were so rife with mutation. The same way that the Space Wolves suffer the curse of the Wulfen and the Blood Angels inherit the Red Thirst.

From IA: Thousand Sons

The discovery of their lost master could not have come sooner for the Thousand Sons. Formed from Magnus's own gene-seed, the Legion was disposed toward psychic mutancy in disproportionate numbers; a circumstance the fledgling Imperium was ill equipped to handle. Deep factionalism divided those who recognised the benefit of stable mutations such as the so-called 'Navigator Gene' of the Navis Nobilite

The Grey Knights are also not your average chapter, they are more to do with the Ordo Malleus than the Astartes and are only called on in the direst of hours. It's also supposedly rumored that they share their geneseed with the Emperor, which is why they are psyksers.

Anyway, why not have another psychic Chapter?

Pilau Rice wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
gene seed doesn't give someone psychic powers and the IoM does have a chapter of psykers, the grey knights, the reason the thousand sons had so many psykers was that magnus recruited so many with psychic potential

It was the psychic imprint of Magnus on the Geneseed that gives the Thousand Sons their psychic powers, true, other marines gain this ability through time but this is the reason why the Thousand Sons had more than any other Chapter also why they were so rife with mutation. The same way that the Space Wolves suffer the curse of the Wulfen and the Blood Angels inherit the Red Thirst.

From IA: Thousand Sons

The discovery of their lost master could not have come sooner for the Thousand Sons. Formed from Magnus's own gene-seed, the Legion was disposed toward psychic mutancy in disproportionate numbers; a circumstance the fledgling Imperium was ill equipped to handle. Deep factionalism divided those who recognised the benefit of stable mutations such as the so-called 'Navigator Gene' of the Navis Nobilite

The Grey Knights are also not your average chapter, they are more to do with the Ordo Malleus than the Astartes and are only called on in the direst of hours. It's also supposedly rumored that they share their geneseed with the Emperor, which is why they are psyksers.

Anyway, why not have another psychic Chapter?

it was cos you said 'a chapter' making it seem that there wasn't a chapter, and the grey knights are not pykers because of their geneseed, they are all found among the travellers/prisoners of the blackships, they are all psykers to beginwith.

thats the whole point, they don't need to use a geneseed that is well known to be flawed (the IoM don't even use loyalist geneseed that is heavily flawed, like space wolves), if the high lords of terra wanted another psyker chapter they could just use ultramarine or dark angel geneseed and implant them into psyker recruits (most likely with some grey knight training).

thats why it makes a whole lot more sence that the blood ravens are a loyalist thousand sons company

BluntmanDC wrote:it was cos you said 'a chapter' making it seem that there wasn't a chapter, and the grey knights are not pykers because of their geneseed, they are all found among the travellers/prisoners of the blackships, they are all psykers to beginwith.

From IA: Grey Knights

The Grey Knights form the main fighting strength of the Ordo Malleus and, traditionally, its Chapter Master is a member of the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition. The men of the Grey Knights are no ordinary warriors. Plucked from the fiercest warrior cultures on a dozen different worlds, only the bravest and strongest youths are selected for the training. Aspirants are taken to the Chapter's base on Saturn's moon, Titan, where they undergo arduous tests of faith, strength, endurance and courage that break all but the strongest warriors. Those few that survive the tests are then implanted with the gene-seed that will transform them into superhuman Space Marines. Now the aspirants are ready to begin their real training.

Ok so I see this is where fluff collides as I guess you are referring to the Inquisition book, which says they recruit from the Black Ships, at least according to Lexicanum it does. The Inquisitor Rulebook or Codex Daemonhunters doesn't give any more insight into this either.

BluntmanDC wrote:thats the whole point, they don't need to use a geneseed that is well known to be flawed (the IoM don't even use loyalist geneseed that is heavily flawed, like space wolves), if the high lords of terra wanted another psyker chapter they could just use ultramarine or dark angel geneseed and implant them into psyker recruits (most likely with some grey knight training).

thats why it makes a whole lot more sence that the blood ravens are a loyalist thousand sons company

Not sure it makes a lot more sense, but I can see why you say that.

Well the cursed founding was an attempt at creating new marines without the flaws that some chapters had, the Lamenters were created from Blood Angels geneseed but apparently had the Black Rage and Red Thirst removed.

I see what you are saying, why use corrupt geneseed. But the Geneseed of a lot of the Loyalist chapters suffer from flaws and geneseed isn't n never ending supply.

We're both missing the Exorcists, they were created from Grey Knight geneseed