Gorechild wrote:Right, a quick rundown of what we've covered so far and what is still left to sort out (updated 21/3/11):

HQ:
Autarch - Done
Farseer/SeerCouncil - Done
Avatar - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Hoec - Done
Eldrad - Not covered
Iyana - Done
Biel Tan guy - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Nahadu (sp?) - Done

Troop:
Dire Avengers - Done
Guardians - Done
Rangers - Done
Jetbikes - Done

Elite:
Howling Banshees - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Striking Scorpions - Not covered
Fire Dragons - Done
Harlequins - Done?
Wraithguard - Done

Fast Attack:
Warp Spiders - Done
Swooping Hawks - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Shining Spears - Done
Vypers - Done

Heavy Support:
Dark Reapers - Done?
Wraithlords - Not covered
Fire Prism/Night Spinner - Done
War Walker - Discussed but no real conculsion made

Dedicated Transports:
Wave Serpent - Done
Falcon - Discussed but no real conculsion made

Army-wide special rules/Army-wide alterations:
Fleet of Foot. Move Through Cover for Aspect Warriors. Skilled Rider/Skilled Flyer for jetbike/jump infantry Aspect Warriors. Aspect Warriors roll 2d6 and pick the highest when running.

Each Aspect squad has a mandatory Exarch. Guardian and Wraithguard squads have a mandatory Warlock. Rangers and vehicles do not have a mandatory "sarge" (much like Space Marines).

All units in the army gain +1 skill as appropriate to their intended use; Guardian Defenders and Dark Reapers gain +1 BS while Guardian Storm and Banshees gain +1 WS, for instance.
Another suggestion was +1 WS for melee aspect warriors and +1 BS for shooting aspect warriors, with Guardians of both types being kept at WS3 BS3.

Rending Shuriken Weaponry- The potential killing power of all rending weapons are increased by giving them the Rending USR. Alterations to units using these weapons may significantly change their individual potency. There is, for example, less foreseeable impact on Wraith Lords, but significant impact on Guardians or Dire Avengers. By improving the default weaponry of the core units in the Eldar codex you offer a different prospect than decreasing their price or improving their range, staying true to the high-risk-high-reward style of the Eldar race.

Improved Shuriken Catapult range-Increasing the range of Shuriken Catapults to 18". Improving the range of Shuriken Catapults significantly affects the viability of Dire Avengers, to whom improved range is not analogous to an improved design niche. The most glaring discrepancy of the current Eldar codex is the Guardian's potency as a high cost, yet very low reward unit. By improving the range of their basic weaponry, Guardians are better able to be the ranged infantry they are, avoiding melee if handled correctly.

Heavy Weapons to become cheaper- Reducing the cost of all Heavy Weapons, with the possible exception of certain already-cheap Shuriken Cannons, would have Eldar mandatory upgrades more in line with what other armies pay for equivalent power on similar fire-bases. The reduction in points must be assuming that each individual weapon discounted is not improved in other ways

Starcannon- Increase Starcannon attack to Heavy 3, This depends on other improvements not making the Starcannon significantly cheaper, and may mean that units which are currently BS3 may experience price increases if they are made BS4. This plasma weaponry's current flaw is that it is only useful if fired on Marines out in the open. Marines seldom stay in the open, and there are a significant amount of other armies where Marines are not prominent. By improving the weapon's number of attacks, the weapons killing power against Marines is not grossly put to shame when compared with the Scatter Laser and also functions against less armoured opponents, if then slightly cost-inefficient.

Exarch powers as psychic powers- Essentially, the risk of using a psychic power for an Exarch is the same as using a Gets Hot! weapon with 4+ armour save. Each major exarch power, such as Bladestorm, are boosted in effect to merit the risks involved in using them.

Craftworld specific special rules- Reintroducing specific rules for each major craftworld, keeping viability anb ballance between all the craftworlds has been a difficulty

HQ:
Farseer- Generally seen as being ok, Mind War ignores cover saves. Eldritch Storm becomes an anti-deepstrike power (mechanics for this not fully discussed).

Autarch- Outflanking army: Allow units arriving from reserve to enter from any non-hostile table edge. Army groups: Allows the Eldar player to roll for reserves for groups of units instead of individual units. Exact number of units per group, or how to handle transported units, is not determined.

Avatar- In addition to granting Fearless to nearby Eldar, the Avatar grants Stubborn to all Eldar units on the table in order to not so much force an Eldar foot army to stay in a small area. Avatar stats and combat abilities increased with price increased to match (the idea is to make the Avatar a God of War). proposed ability was to allow the Avatar to inflict an S4 hit on all units in base contact instead of attacking in melee.

Prince Yriel-

Eldrad-

Phoenix Lords- All Pheonix Lords get some form of invulnerable save. Pheonix Lords can make a squad of their aspect scoring. Phoenix Lords are no longer independent characters, but rather form the basis for an HQ unit. Each Phoenix Lord may be joined by up to 9 Aspect Warriors (4 in Maugan Ra's case) of their own aspect, where the Phoenix Lord acts in place of the Exarch. Equality for all, all aspects get one each.

Bone Singer- A Bone Singer is a support psycher with a special synergy with Wraithguard, Wraith Lords and vehicles. The psychic powers below are simply suggestions, the model would otherwise be very similar to a Farseer. One model or vehicle in contact with the Bone Singer is entombed, unable to perform actions until psychic power is ended. Would probably also protect the entombed.Repairs vehicle weapons and immobilizations. Resurrects Wraithguard and repairs Wraith Lords. Wraithguard and Wraith Lords in tight proximity / same squad, gain Feel No Pain. Provides area terrain, This terrain's size and danger to enemies is not determined. Improves the toughness or armour value of Wraithguard or Wraith Lord, or improves armour value of a vehicle.

Warlock- Removal of Seer Council,The Seer Council is proving to be a difficult obstacle in order to provide a serious boost for Guardian squad leaders or the individual Warlock psychic powers. Additionally, the Seer Council gives rise to crude tactics not quite benefiting an Eldar. Conceal is Stealth, Currently Conceal provides little meaningful benefit since terrain is recommended to be plentiful. Conceal may instead provide a squad with Stealth USR. Conceal like a Grey Knight, Conceal may instead provide a range limiter similar to night-fighting. The benefit here is that it clearly provides an incentive for the enemy to get within the range where Eldar is more comfortable, but does not provide a reliable or extra defence when the enemy is within that comfort zone. Psychic Ballistics Skill, In order to better adapt a Warlock to ranged Guardians, they would also need a psychic power which benefited them. Enhance could be modified to provide this, or a new psychic power introduced to keep Enhance from becoming a no-brainer. Warlock Proliferation- In order to make Eldar more Psychic, Warlocks may be purchased as an upgrade for all Infantry units (apart from aspect warriors). True Psycher, The Warlock psychic powers are improved to the point where they justify taking a psychic power test.

Elite:
Harlequins- Left for Codex: Dark Eldar to sort...but Codex: Dark Eldar didnt change them! need to discuss.

Striking Scorpions-

Banshees- Assault Drill: Banshees can assault after disembarking. Either an innate ability, or an optional Exarch power.

Fire Dragons- Flamer replacement or upgrade option for Fire Dragons in order to diversify their role.

Wraithguard- Moved to troop, possibly as an option when Bone singer is chosen as HQ. Changing CC attacks to power weapon, possible immunity to poison.

Troop:
Dire Avengers- Increase range, Increase RoF, add rending, add ignores cover or keep them the same. All depends on what changes are decided for shuriken weapons in general and changed made to guardians.

Guardian Jetbikes-

Rangers- Assault Snipers: Rangers are able to move and shoot, simple cost decrease; Rangers are good, but only in an environment with fewer tanks. A cost decrease would adapt Rangers to the reality where few units are not deep striking or being transported. Pathfinder is a "sarge" upgrade: A single member of the squad is able to upgrade to a squad sergeant who bestows the improved bonuses to the rest of the squad. Additional wargear may thus be enabled. Ranger disruption table, A lesser form of the ranger disruption table returns. Several possible iterations. Primarily to combat transports and deep striking.

Guardian Defenders & Storms- This is going to be a huge section, it is an integral part of the army. Also, please note the interaction between Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers. What is agreed on is that Guardians are overpriced by a huge margin, some even argue that this was also the case in the previous codex as well. Note that Guardians are heavily affected by weaponry change suggestions! Decreasing the cost of the models: By decreasing the cost of the models to something close to what they are worth, estimated around 5 points, you gain a fair trade for your investment. This suggestion has the danger of going strictly against Eldar fluff in that people may start using Guardian blobs or Guardian bubble-wrapping. Increasing the possible number of platforms: By simply increasing the number of platforms, the Guardians (Defender) become a viable heavy weapon base where their own performance matters less. The key is to find a number of platforms, and the natural incentive to purchase them. Integral with this suggestion is that a platform with a Shuriken Cannon is free and that to upgrade this to something else you gain a discount compared to the price for purchasing each weapon with no trade-in. Merging Storms and Defenders by combining Guardian Storms and Defenders into a single model choice with equal capability of both units, you gain a diverse unit in an army which only offer specialization - but at the price of the unit not being particularly great at either role. Each Guardian would be armed with a Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Pistol and Close Combat Weapon. A small number of Shuriken Catapults may be upgraded to flamers or fusion guns and the squad may be accompanied by a heavy weapon platform. Improving Storm Guardian weapons: Guardian Storms would gain Chainswords (+1S). Alternatively, more exotic wargear could be given to them chosen among the non-exarch gear found in the rest of the army. Better saves; Eldar armour save begin with 4+ by improving Guardian armour to the same level as aspect warriors, citing that it makes no sense not to protect the most valuable assets the craftworld has if they have the capability to do so. An important aspect of this is that the aspect warriors do not gain better saves because of it. Grenades; Plasma Grenades, defensive grenades, and Haywire Grenades. Distribute as appropriate to the Guardians.Alternative squad leaders;Ranger Pathfinders may provide an alternative squad leader for Guardian Defenders, where a Warlock often fail in providing efficiency in the long-range game.

Fast Attack:
Vyper- Removal of open-topped, by removing open-topped status from Vypers, you remove an unnecessary vulnerability which gives none of a transport's benefits. Vypers are plenty easy to destroy with AV10 regardless. This is simply closing the gap to a Vyper's current cost by making them a fraction more durable. A Vyper squadron will likely succumb to massed Bolter fire, regardless. Vyper Jetbikes: Vypers are changed from being vehicles with very little protection into simply Jetbikes. This gives them the ability to fire both it's primary weapon and the secondary weapon as well as make a 6" move in the assault phase - but precludes vehicle upgrades. By changing Vypers to normal Jetbikes you play on Eldar's high-risk-high-reward style. They immediately become vulnerable to most melee and to strength 3 weapons, but the over-all durability against mid-power weapons such as Autocannons increase.

Swooping Hawks- Huge stumbling block, many different ideas have been looked at but nothing smmes to work, suggestions apprichiated.

Warp Spiders- Giving weapons the night spinners "monofilament wire" rule, changing weapon to blast or template have all been discussed. Changing strength and AP, giving the Rending USR.

Shining Spears- ability to arrive from reserve at will, no need to roll. Making weapons into power weapons. Making into TEQ/MC hunters.

Heavy Support
War Walkers- Move them to Fast Attack, Provided that no light version of the War Walker is introduced in the Fast Attack section. War Walkers are Scouts, and it is customary that Scouts are in the Fast Attack section - more importantly, the Fast Attack section is less crowded than the Heavy Support section. An additional advantage is that a pure foot army becomes infinitely more possible, adding much needed spread to fire-power by allowing both War Walkers and Wraith Lords without FOC competition.

Wraith Lords- No more twin-linking, Can buy the same weapon twice without twin-linking them. Easier twin-linking, A second weapon of the same sort is half as expensive. Twin-linked weapons aren't as powerful as two weapons of the same kind. Three for the FOC-price of one, Each FOC slot may provide room for up to three Wraith Lords. Each Wraith Lord is a unit of it's own for all other purposes. Improved Melee, Return of the 3 base attacks in melee OR by having Wraithsword provide bonus attacks (in which case double-blade becomes an option). The idea is that the Wraith Lord is FOC-slot ineffective and easily tied down in melee for a monstrous creature. Aspect Lords, Wraithlords are equipped according to their former Aspect. Each lord will also feature a slightly different statline to differentiate between the heavy and the light aspects. This is a rather large topic due to the number of itterations, but also requires the base statline for Wraith Lords to be decreased. For example a Spider Wraith Lord would come with double swords and a Mandiblaster, bumping it's base attacks up to 4, in addition to being able to infiltrate. A Spider Wraith Lord would have increased Strength of 8(9) and a high toughness of 8. The basic idea is also to cut down on the number of iterations, maybe so much as to only get one melee archetype, one ranged archetype, and one miscellaneous archetype, and allow for some variation.

Support Weapon Platform- Moved to Guardian Defenders. Heavy Weapon Platforms may be upgraded to support weapons, and as such a limited number of Support Weapons may be found in the Troop section instead. Lowered cost, lowering the cost drastically to reflect the relative difficulty at which these are used. Relentless, a major drawback of these weapons is that they are stationary (and expensive), This is a tactical upgrade. Improved performance, most of the Support Weapons perform poorly, and particularly the Vibro Cannon's rules are poorly written. Shadow Weaver need to be improved in the AP or special rules section. Vibro Cannon need to give proper benefit when adding more, and the rules for shooting on vehicles (particularly squadrons of vehicles) need to be re-written.

Dark Reapers- Slow and Purposeful, Can choose to be Slow and Purposeful or to move as normal each turn. While moving normally, Reapers may not move-and-fire. Relentless,
Contrary to Slow and Purposeful, Reapers are fully Relentless. Shared Vision, The missiles are guided and the Reapers may share vision between each other, if a unit is in line of sight of one Reaper squad, it is in line of sight of all Reapers in the squad, could possibly be expanded to be able to share vision from other units. One alternative is that a unit not in line of sight with the Reapers, but with a visual-link unit, gains a cover save but is not completely immune. Upgraded Reaper Launchers (fire modes), Reapers Launchers are changed to have a single-fire mode where you gain high-strength shots at the expense of rate of fire, this in order to better combat the lack of anti-tank when opting for Reapers.

Falcon Gravtank- Crystal Target Matrix, an alternative to the vehicle upgrade, this is offered as a unique upgrade to Falcons only; can shoot two weapons after moving up to 12". Dedicated Transport, Falcons are moved to be dedicated transports. Their relative similarity to Wave Serpents might be problematic. Assault Vehicle,While Falcons are not necessarily dedicated transports, they are considered assault vehicles meant to transport elite assault squads.

Nightspinner-

Fire Prism-

Transports
VenomThe name "Venom" is a work in progress. With the Dark Eldar now having Venoms, naturally a more animalesque name for Craftworld Eldar is more appropriate. Squadrons, The basic idea is for the Vyper to lose the cannon and to have a troop capacity, specifically for Banshees and Harlequins, maybe Scorpions. Each Vyper would be able to carry 2-3 models each, where Venom casualties would either also lose the models they carry or have the entire squad force a disembark. Solitary Venoms, This idea is to add open-topped assault vehicles for Craftworld Eldar. Naturally they wouldn't be very protected and succumb quickly to shooting, so cost would be low, durability would be left for cover saves, and life expectancy only long enough to give their squad a boost. Troop capacity around the 6 model mark.

Wave Serpent
Inertia Containment Compartment (Assault Ramp), optional upgrade, allows units inside to assault on a turn they disembark from the vehicle.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:I dont play Eldar, but i love the Dark Reapers (their name just sounds cool, their old SC is one of the best Eldar i have read about, IMO) and thought, along the lines of your "shared" vision, perhaps a cheap upgrade that allows them to have a "psychic link" to one of the HQs (the points would come from the reapers, not the HQ) thereby allowing them to use the HQs LOS to the target, thus negating any cover saves (if the HQ has clear sight to the unit being shot at)

Or, they could get the Split Fire rule, like the Long Fangs in the SW codex. So long as the Exarch does not fire, they may fire at up to 2 targets.

DarknessEternal wrote:Str 7 Starcannons would be in all ways better for Eldar than Heavy 3 Starcannons.

A glut of weapons who are all defined by Str 6 is just bad design. The 5 Eldar heavy weapons (shuriken cannon, star cannon, scatter laser, EML, bright lance) need to entirely different roles to play.

Mahtamori wrote: With S7 it becomes a Pulse Laser -1S, on the other hand. Some people have raised opinions that they'd like to see the pulse laser as a standard heavy weapon. Food for thought.

I think the biggest problem is that two of them are almost identical (Shuriken Cannon and Scatter Laser) while the Star Cannon actually perform a different role.

How'd you think about Scatter Laser being {Heavy 6 S4 Ap5}? Or, alternatively, the Shuriken Cannon change to that.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Shuriken cannon 24" 4 4 Assault 4, Rending
Starcannon 36" 7 2 Heavy 2
Scatter laser 36” 6 6 Heavy 6
Pulse laser 48” 8 2 Heavy 2, Lance

Gwyidion wrote: S7 starcannons is an interesting look - it very much puts them into a place they can act as a very effective AT weapon, penning a AV10 target on a 4+. As with many things, it depends very much on pricing, but a vyper with a S7 starcannon could really cause problems for 11/10/10 units.

Perhaps a S7 starcannon, a slight proliferation of the pulse laser, and an Ap1 or S9 brightlance is the solution to the eldar's ranged AT woes?

rivers64 wrote:For Dark Reapers instead of split fire a rule that would make more sense and be way more helpful would be for them to ignore cover altogether and keep them otherwise the same except for maybe slow and purposeful.

Darkness Eternal wrote:I'd rather remove the reaper launcher altogether and give them back Missile Launchers.

Mahtamori wrote:Reapers with normal Eldar Launchers is extremely tempting and does suit Eldar in the way of excessive dedication. They are currently armed with an equivalent of some sort of plasma weapon, but with straight up Eldar Missile Launchers the basic Dark Reaper is going to be worth while - even if they can't move-and-shoot.
The big question is, though, that since Dark Reapers are the equivalent of Devastators, what makes them special? Eldar equivalents are usually not as durable but have a twist you don't find with Marines at the expense of less adaptivity. If the Eldar equivalent of Devastators aren't going to be allowed to be adaptive, what sets them apart?
Currently the Dark Reapers are set apart by their Exarch having one awesome weapon, while the rest of the squads are extra wounds. Expensive extra wounds.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I have a feeling that your suggestions for Wraithguard might be a bit much, they're annoying to kill as-is, with power weapons it'd be almost impossible.

Gorechild wrote:
With your suggestion I cant see why anyone would choose a starcannon over a pulse laser (unless it was significanly cheaper).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gorechild wrote:
With your suggestion I cant see why anyone would choose a starcannon over a pulse laser (unless it was significanly cheaper).

Pulse lasers are only on Falcons and Hornets anyway, so that's a non-issue.