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So, I was playing in a tournament today. We had a lot of fun, but in my second game the Daemon army I was playing against had 4 wizards capable of casting Purple sun, and at one point we had 4 active Purple suns flying around the board. Since I was playing dwarfs these were VERY, VERY bad for me. He got the large version off with an irresistible force which traveled 30" and took out both cannons, my grudge thrower, and my ANVIL. After that my magic defense was almost totally annihilated. My question is, how would people score comp in this case? 4 wizards who know the whole lore of Death and who can all get Purple Sun off. DANG! that's just plain crazy.


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I thought this was in the "discussion" forum as it should be. Please move.

That *is* extreme, but against a lot of armies, that's not going to do a whole lot. It's important to score comp with an overall in mind, and not get wrapped up in a specific bad matchup.

You probably knew before deploying the situation with the lores- so its important to scatter war machines in a manner that ensures they don't all go from one sun.

What else was in the army?

980 points minimum, is a lot of points in those casters. 3 of those casters are init 3, so risk quite a bit with those initial artillery rolls.

Vampire Counts can do the same, taking two level 3 vampire lords, and 3 vampires, all with forbidden lore, giving them the entire lore of death, along with still having the summons spell (and the vastly superior vampire stats).

What was the rest of the army?
Somebody dumps ~1000 points in wizards, I'm going to score them pretty low.



-Matt

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought no armies could double up on spells other then the base one.

Or do Daemons have some special rule that negates that one?

There's a Demonic Power (Magic Item equivalent type) which grants all the spells of a chosen lore, and this can indeed be purchased multiple times.

Vamps can do it as well with 'Forbidden Lore'.

Yep...but those who rely on magic also die with magic...

As I found out in a recent tourney when my slann got it's concentration broken by rolling 2 1's during critical times...sigh.....

lesson learned...roll 3 dice when you really need to do well in a magic phase!!!

I am sure that the opponent with the 4 purple suns will also have horrible games where he will roll a misfire on the artillery dice often...or miscast every turn...or have turns where he will roll 2 1's when generating power dice.

Or come up against my Ogres who tend to get first turn (just three units ftw!) and wind up in combat turn 2.....

Lots can go wrong with magic heavy. And no, it's not impolite to point and laugh when he rolls double one for power at a critical juncture. And if he starts to cry, grab a friend and get them to join in.

I thought that you couldn't have multiple iterations of a single spell in play at the same time. Not sure where I'm getting that from, or if it would apply with a RiP vortex...

So he had Kiros fateweaver, three tzeench herald, 4or 5 units of about 12 horrors, 2 units of flamers, a big unit of about 20 blood letters and two units of 10 flesh hound. It was a 3000 point tournament, and he really did get lucky to even get the spells off, he rolled irresistible on the big one which took out my Anvil with rune lord and destroyed my magic defense.

@ Veritek83. I think its each wizard can have one instance of a RIP spell at a time, with multiple casters you can get multiple instances of the same spell going.

3000pts is a bit dangerous for tournament play, mostly because of the sharp drop in army restrictions but also because you can get some very expensive/powerful units and characters running around. Dwarves and Empire can take a silly amount of artillery, Lizardmen can get multiple Slann etc.

Magic aside, that Daemon list is pretty squishy though. Concentrated shooting should make a mess of his army pretty quickly. Combat would work too, but with Dwarves your slow speed will probably mean you won't get there fast enough.

Powerguy wrote:@ Veritek83. I think its each wizard can have one instance of a RIP spell at a time, with multiple casters you can get multiple instances of the same spell going.

3000pts is a bit dangerous for tournament play, mostly because of the sharp drop in army restrictions but also because you can get some very expensive/powerful units and characters running around. Dwarves and Empire can take a silly amount of artillery, Lizardmen can get multiple Slann etc.

Magic aside, that Daemon list is pretty squishy though. Concentrated shooting should make a mess of his army pretty quickly. Combat would work too, but with Dwarves your slow speed will probably mean you won't get there fast enough.

Agreed. 3K is already at Grand Army level. I personally believe for competitive play lower is better, with 2k at the minimum. 2.5K is the max for tourneys tops, with 2.4K a good balance between the 2....

Bad things happen at 3,000 points.
I saw a high elf army that consisted of:

3 princes, 4 nobles, korhil
4 great eagles,

All the rest of the points in 1 huge block of sea guard. (something like 14 wide and 10 or 11 deep)

The death star was immune to fear and terror, and the BSB had the banner making them immune to magic.
One of the lords, as well as korhil were stubborn, and the unit had magical attacks, along with the 6+ ward against warmachines.

It was utterly stupid.

3,000 points should only be played in friendly games.

Yeah, looking at the list he brought, outside of Fateweaver, I think he made some fairly weak choices. Going death on all 3 heralds? Maybe the thought process was to spam character snipes or something. Still Kairos should be able to burn through most of the dice pool on his own- doesn't really need all those extra spells around.

Red_Zeke wrote:Yeah, looking at the list he brought, outside of Fateweaver, I think he made some fairly weak choices. Going death on all 3 heralds? Maybe the thought process was to spam character snipes or something. Still Kairos should be able to burn through most of the dice pool on his own- doesn't really need all those extra spells around.

Maybe his thought process was purple sun spam. It's pretty brutal against init 4 or less armies. At least you get a look out for the characters though.

-Matt

uhh what your opponent did was wrong (some would say idiotic)

it doesnt matter what kind of ability the hero/lord has. the BRB clearly states that apart from signature, no two/more wizards in an army can know the same spells.
the forbidden lore someone talked about indeed gives all the spells in a model, but that does not mean that other mages can pick that lore as well, apart from the signature.
and you were playing in a tournament! lol!!!

rockabill-gr wrote:
the BRB clearly states that apart from signature, no two/more wizards in an army can know the same spells.

Can you give me a page number for this? I've been trying to find it.

rockabill-gr wrote:uhh what your opponent did was wrong (some would say idiotic)

it doesnt matter what kind of ability the hero/lord has. the BRB clearly states that apart from signature, no two/more wizards in an army can know the same spells.

Actually, what the BRB "clearly states" is that if a spell isn't generated randomly, either because a model has no choice over which spell(s) it knows(either because it's fixed by rules or buys certain spells instead of rolling) or it's a spell that the army book or spell lore(ie. signature spells) states that a model can exchange for, then the spell may be duplicated.

Pg. 162 in the IoB book.

Incidentally, steamdragon, that answers your question, even though rockabill mis-remembers the rule.

As well, there is no rule(like he posits) that limits Loremaster(or similar rules) to a single instance of any lore, and may in fact be duplicated as much as you want.

Rockabill, I believe there is an exception for items that grant a wizard "knows all spells from a lore".

I actually thought that a single caster could have multiple purple suns remaining in play. So if he casts again, the first vortex is removed (even though it would travel in a random direction at the start of each magic phase otherwise?)?

This list would tear me up, but I imagine against elves, WoC, or other high initiative armies, it would be pretty weak...

Edit: Ninja'ed... twice!

I think what really got me is when he cast purple sun and did something like 30 kills, he rolled and got about 12 more dice for the pool, allowing it to be cast again by another mage, then more dice, and again by another at which point I can't stop it any more. Like I said, I was doing fine until he got Purple Sun off, and then it tore through me.

Indeed.. welcome to uber spellhammer. "I was doing well until spell that doesnt allow saves killed me"

I just think it's a weak choice because it's so lopsided. Sure it'll be devastating against Dwarfs and Ogres, but if he runs up against Elves or some such, he has so many points spiked in to Death magic that he's really hampered. Seems like an army that is sacrificing a chance to do consistently well in favor of blowing out a couple of games over the course of a tourney.

The use of the Death Lore attribute *is* a good point, though...

RZ

Platuan4th wrote:

rockabill-gr wrote:uhh what your opponent did was wrong (some would say idiotic)

it doesnt matter what kind of ability the hero/lord has. the BRB clearly states that apart from signature, no two/more wizards in an army can know the same spells.

Actually, what the BRB "clearly states" is that if a spell isn't generated randomly, either because a model has no choice over which spell(s) it knows(either because it's fixed by rules or buys certain spells instead of rolling) or it's a spell that the army book or spell lore(ie. signature spells) states that a model can exchange for, then the spell may be duplicated.

Pg. 162 in the IoB book.

Incidentally, steamdragon, that answers your question, even though rockabill mis-remembers the rule.

As well, there is no rule(like he posits) that limits Loremaster(or similar rules) to a single instance of any lore, and may in fact be duplicated as much as you want.

Ah! Thanks, I knew it was somewhere but I kept looking in the magic section. This is extra painful for skaven, who only get access to two lores (plus a spell). On the other hand, it does help me make sure my engineer ends up with Skitterleap.

streamdragon wrote:Ah! Thanks, I knew it was somewhere but I kept looking in the magic section. This is extra painful for skaven, who only get access to two lores (plus a spell). On the other hand, it does help me make sure my engineer ends up with Skitterleap.

Are you kidding me? Skaven lores are amazing!

They are, but we only have 13 spells total!

(I've been looking at a 4,000 point list for a 2v1 game, so I had enough wizards to fill out all the spells!)

Skaven only need one spell, and it incidentally has 13 in it's name. I brought my WoC to a tournament and wondered why 4 of 8 players were Skaven. In two of three games, on the first turn, the Skaven wizard throws all his dice into that stupid spell and wastes literally half of my army.

Sure, he miscasts. Oh noes!

That spell is horribly thought out.

I actually am more open minded towards playing against Lore of Metal with my WoC than I am towards those filthy rats.


To contribue to the topic, 4x Purple Suns are very imbalanced and magic sided, but if your local store is dwarf/ogre/anything low initiative heavy then he's simply tailoring to the local enviroment and trying to succeed as best he can. Also, in most VP tournament formats, he's going to place well if he lucks into 1 or 2 major victories. (Again, this is assuming he's adjusting to his local meta.) Even if things go bad and he flubs all his magic in a game and dies horribly, he's likely to place well and has redundancy on his spells of doom.

Did he cast purple sun with Kairos? If he did that is one idiot player that got lucky during your game....

Kairos is 625 points of I-1 goodness, all it takes is one misfire on the purple sun and he goes bye bye.


Happened to be an overall garbage list that happened to be a very strong counter to yours.

Thunderfrog - how is one spell that affects one unit affecting half your army? Especially as it cant even wipe the whole unit out if it is more than 25 models....

On another note, Purple sun is the one super spell that i am least afraid of (Aside from fires junk spell).

It has a chance to backfire, has an insane casting value, and can actually block you off.

I have seen Teclis, Kairos, Insert other 400+ point cast all eaten by purple suns.

Im much more afraid of Dwellers below, or Final transmutation then i will ever be of Purple sun.

Nosferatu.

1000pt game.

I play warriors of Chaos.

A block of 18 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch with shield and my general attached comes in at around 490 points.

It wasted half my army. Maybe not half my units.. I still had a warshrine and some random stuff left.. but half my points went bye bye.

If you are implying a 25 model cap somehow gimps the spell or makes it less broken, you are nuts.


It's even worse for Ogres.

Purple sun wasted an entire unit of chaos warriors...

The initiative 5 guys that only fail on a 6?