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Been playing in an escalation league lately at the local store. They allowed me to play the FW Imperial Armored Company pdf release.

So I have recently come in to possession of some old LRBTs and decided to make a nice squad of em for 1000 points but need to finish bulding them first.

Wondering what people think about it, Which Leman Russ hull mounted weapon is best for a BS3 tank? H. Bolter, H. Flamer, or the 15 pt Lascannon?

Tried out the free heavy flamer and suprisingly used them often even in 1000 pts. What do you guys think? (I won both games, never really feeling like i needed a lascannon)

Depends on the tank's role. Regular russes, Eradicators, and Punishers are almost always going to be shooting at infantry of some kind, so bolters would be my preference. Executioners are for killing heavy infantry, so they go either way. Vanquishers and Exterminators are always shooting at tanks, so those should always get lascannons. Demolishers I rarely use.

I almost never get the heavy flamers, but if I did, the ones I'd put them on would be the Eradicator, to fit with the "dense terrain" theme, and the Demolisher, just to rip up anything that gets close.

I tend to go with the HB only a lascannon on the ... silly tank w/ 2d6 pen

MekanobSamael wrote:Depends on the tank's role.

QFT
i run a majority of my new ones magnetized for flexability. my old ones i have a version of 2 each.
i will go on the record of not using H heavy flamers. i never liked them in older editions. my new ones
can, but i find i go for the H bolter. i like my Chimeras with the flamers.

The flamer pairs better with the main cannon of most russes, and is cheap. Also, there are usually better ways of putting anti-tank in your list than hull lascannons.

That said, as mentioned, it depends on the tank's role and the rest of your list, because there are times when a hull lascannon would definitely be the most logical choice.

This is my logic: The #1 enemy of av14 is melta, lrbt should try to stay out of melta range, and hf are counterproductive to the goal of avoiding melta.

I say hull heavy bolters on my russes (I run LRBT, LRD, and Executioners only). Heavy flamers mean I'm too close, except maybe with the demolisher, and lascannons are expensive for a BS 3 vehicle. The heavy bolter may not do a whole lot against a marine, but against lighter infantry, you're likely to kill a model or two a turn. Not great, but its better than nothing.

I use Lascannons, because in general my Russ will be firing at MEQ/Transports.

(Also, because the git who sold me mine glued his on and it won't move).

Russ special rule allows it to shoot turret weapon for free, so it's cool to have something you can use. HF brings you too close to melta/assault , and with HB - smart player will put those bolter rounds to minimalise casualties using wound alocation tricks. So onstead of 4 dead marines, you have 2 dead marines. I'd say lascannon is the best if you have 15 free points.

Kubik wrote:Russ special rule allows it to shoot turret weapon for free, so it's cool to have something you can use. HF brings you too close to melta/assault , and with HB - smart player will put those bolter rounds to minimalise casualties using wound alocation tricks. So onstead of 4 dead marines, you have 2 dead marines. I'd say lascannon is the best if you have 15 free points.

I agree with most of this, but what Would Allocation tricks are we talking about here? If I put 6 wounds on a Tactical Squad (4 from Cannon), then he has 2 saves to make (assuming no cover) and 4 are dead.

Unless he has specialist, hw, or sgt. then he can put all cannon wounds on tacticals, and give bolter wounds to specialist/sgt.

I see. That doesn't translate into dead marines, just not the right marines dead. But short of applying more wounds to the squad, you can't control that. If they have a powerfist or something of the like, I don't want my Russ anywhere near that squad, honestly.

I don't face MEQ...well at all, since my group has none. So I have virtually no experience with them, except one game against a Mech BA army.

That doesn't translate into dead marines, just not the right marines dead

Let's say, there are 4 marines in the squad (2x tac, spec and sgt).

1) You put 4 batlle cannon wounds. Everybody gets hit, everybody dies.
2) you put 4 battle cannon wounds and 2 HB wounds -> 2 cannon rounds fo every tactical and one HB to sgt and specialist. 2 tactical dies, specialist and sgt lives to melta/fist my Russ.

So sometimes it Does. That's why I don't put HHF on my Bane Wolves anymore

Lascannon for me, thanks. They're great for taking out random big things (Like rhinos or a monstrous creature...Lots of things) and even shooting them into a unit of standard guys can be useful.

The heavy bolter is great for anti-infantry, but I usually just take those as sponsons anyway, so having another one is njust redundant. Also, I always take the vanilla russ, so I'm basically covered with my anti-infantry anyway.

To summarize, the lascannon is more than welcome on a vanilla russ, but I might opt out for HB on some of the variants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gavo wrote:I use Lascannons, because in general my Russ will be firing at MEQ/Transports.

(Also, because the git who sold me mine glued his on and it won't move).

Same thing happened to me!

The only reason I take LC's is to ensure my tank isn't a complete waste if the main cannon gets blown off. It's a 15 pt insurance policy per se. Although my New Demolisher is a bolter boat just for Close range killing.

Well my demolisher squadron has lascannons and dozer blades, which seems to work quite well. Great for getting side shots on vehicles by nipping through a building.

I've recently started modifying my LRBTs with lascannons simply because i found i never fired the heavy flamers, and gave up on bolters long ago for being too weak. If i used sponsons at all i would probably thing better of the bolter, as three of them can lay down some hurt. However, due to wound allocation trouble and the need to hurt transports i find that lascannons work well on these too.

Only need one more tank to finish my company now, a dkok vanquisher with lascannon and a pask counts as, for a command tank. This will go with my 6 lrbt w/lc and 3 demolishers w/lc and dozer.

Would it make any difference to anyone's suggestions were it mentioned he takes his Leman Russes with Slick Loaders, which allow him to fire the main cannon twice instead of firing the other guns if he did not move?

Aduro wrote:Would it make any difference to anyone's suggestions were it mentioned he takes his Leman Russes with Slick Loaders, which allow him to fire the main cannon twice instead of firing the other guns if he did not move?

then i'd even suggest H Bolters even stronger. nothing like spending 15 points you won't use for the lascannon.

It doesn't make a whole lot of difference imo. I've become unaccustomed to spending points on guns besides the turret. Paying 15 pts (which is as much as an autocannon and flamer on an infantry squad) is often ill spent on a bs3 boat who may be able to shoot it and the cannon, that level of unreliability is something i'd rather not bank on because even a .5 chance of hit will only reliably hurt av12+ which, are most notably transports which by the time your heavy tank is getting hit should be dead or ineffective (because they've dumped already.

15 pts can be well spent on extra armor or dozer blades imo on the tank, or weapons on other units.

Even in the case of slick loaders, being on the move to avoid being decimated by assault can be beneficial to have a cannon, but why wouldn't you want to shoot the guys in threat range?

To me, the best mesh with the Battle Cannon is the lascannon. I make heavy use of Lumbering Bohemeth and I like how the LC can kill anything I may be shooting at already. The extra inches over the HB helps as well as I am often firing at long range. It makes the tank more reliable against its primary targets, while losing nothing to movement. It's also one of the cheaper ways to get a lascannon, and only increases the unit cost by 10%. It's a good place for one, imo.

the lascannon will let you take a shot at a tank if you really need to (1S8 Ord and 1S9 isn't too bad) and also helps when shooting MEQ (see wound allocation nonsense above).

The way I see it, you dont want more heavy bolters in an IG army unless you are using a unit specialized in s5 or ap4 weapons. For example, a punisher gets good use of the bolters. A hydra gets good use of the bolters.

However, a cannon russ only gets good use of the bolter versus 4+ armor save infantry and/or av10. Versus 3+ armor save infantry, the most populus type of infantry, the las cannon does not allow wound allocation shenanigans. And against av11 and up (the majority of armor types), the las cannon busts the armor better.

So we have seen that against the majority of infantry and armor the las cannon is better. Now all we have to do is compare the cost of the las cannon versus the benefits. No cost/benefit analysis will work without a target to shoot at, so I will use the av 11 rhino/razor, a tyranid tervigon, and a 6 man long fang unit. These 3 units give a decent enough spread without going too overboard.

For comparison, we will use 165 stock russes versus 150 las cannon russes. This will represent equal points of russes over the long term.

Versus av11: A battlecannon hits ~1/2 the time full str. It pens 75% of the time, fails to do anything 11%, and glances 13.9%.
Heavy Bolters have a 1 in 6 chance to glance, and a Las cannon has a 1/6 chance to glance and a 66% chance to pen.

Naked Russ: 41 Glances from bolters, 62 pens and 11 glances from cannon.
Las cannon russ: 56 cannon pens, 10 cannon glances, 12.5 las glances, 50 cannon pens.

So we see that versus av11, the las cannon provides 46 extra pens, with only 30 less glances, for the same points. Versus av12 and up, the bolter is useless, so we see that the las cannon is far superior versus armor for the points.

Now lets look at the t6 3+ save tyranid beasties. Here the cannon has a greater chance to hit, of roughly 80%. 165 cannon shots deal 110 wounds, 100 wounds for the 150 cannon shot las cannon unit. The heavy bolter deals 27.5 wounds, the las cannons deal 62.5 wounds with no cover or FNP, or 31 wounds with cover. So we see that without cover or FNP, the las cannons net you 25 extra wounds. This number goes up dramaticly with FNP to 44, as you can FNP the cannons and the bolters, and with cover only the las cannons deal 1 wound less than the bolters.

So when it comes to monstrous beasties, las cannons are superior when the beastie only has armor, the las cannons are superior whenever the beastie has FNP, and the las cannon is barely inferior if the beastie has a 4+ cover or invuln save. A 5+ invuln or cover save and the lascannon is slightly superior. Considering how hard it is for all of the tyranid beasties to get a 4+ cover save all the time, and how prevalant FNP can be, and the las cannon is shown to be superior.

Now we look at 5 missile launcher long fangs with a pack leader. If spaced properly, the long fangs can only be hit with 3 models with any particular battle cannon shot. Also, if they are in a line abreast, then forward or backwards scatters are useless. This puts the hit % at roughly 50% to hit 3 models.

The heavy bolter deals 55 unsaved wounds, the las cannon deals 62.5 wounds. 165 cannon shots deal 206 wounds, the 187.5 wounds. Totalled, the heavy bolter russ kills 261 long fangs, while the las cannon russ kills 250 long fangs. Thus, the 15 extra battle cannon shots that hit a max of 3 models 50% of the time are worth more than the 7.5 extra wounds the las cannons will deal. If the long fangs are in cover, then the las cannon is actually worse as the long fangs can save them, but the bolters are already against their armor save.

That just leaves wound allocation shennanigans. If a fresh long fang unit is spaced properly, then only 3 models will get hit with the battle cannon. Thus even if the heavy bolter deals the max of 3 wounds, there will still be no wound wrap. If the long fang player is all bunched up, then the amount of extra damage dealt by the battle cannon will mean you can simply not shoot your heavy bolter--or in other words, as shown above the battle cannon will do so much damage that point for point the las cannon's damage will be insignifigant in the long run.

So final tally? The las cannon is better at killing vehicles, better at killing monsters with t5/6 with little cover, better at killing FNP units, and both the las cannons and the bolter does not really help with infantry. Also, the las cannon can instant death things like oblits and attack bikes which is nice.

More effective than a heavy bolter? Sure.

Worth the 15 points? I'm not convinced. The lascannon makes the tank better at things that it's not good against, even after the upgrade. Thus the cheap cost.

The only time I could see it being actually worthwhile is on a demolisher (or maybe an executioner), where the lascannon is good against the same target types as the main cannon so that they actually compliment each other.

Otherwise, why pay for a weapon that mismatches, when you can take weapons which mismatch for free?

I always go for hull lascannon, as a russ is relatively hard to kill it usually earns its points back.

Ailaros wrote:
Worth the 15 points? I'm not convinced. The lascannon makes the tank better at things that it's not good against, even after the upgrade. Thus the cheap cost.

But doesn't the LC make the tank better at things it is good against, as well as things it's not?

murdog wrote:But doesn't the LC make the tank better at things it is good against, as well as things it's not?

Marginally, and that's what I'm getting at.

The splatcannon is good against space marines out of cover. The lascannon shooting at tac marines for two turns might kill 1. That doesn't seem like much of an upgrade to what it already does well. Heck, it does only twice as good as the heavy bolter for 15 points instead of free. The heavy flamer seems like a better deal, as a single strong hit with it is likely to actually do something.

Yes, you're driving closer to melta range, but that's what you have the front armor upgrade for. If you want to keep your heavy support choices as far away as possible from your enemy, take artillery. It does the job better for cheaper.

I think the HB is the worst of both worlds,,,it's only marginally effective against GEQ/horde type stuff, can be counter-productive against MEQs as mentioned above, and is only slightly effective against vehicles.

With slick loaders, you're probably best served with a heavy flamer. It's cheap, with two shots you have already addressed increased efficiency against all target types (armor, horde, marine), and if something does happen to get close you have a nice option to finish light troops off more reliably.

On a regular Russ, I do like the hull lascannon. Most armies have at least some vehicles, and the lascannon greatly increases the vehicle's AT ability. It's still useful against MEQs and other tough troops and, while not super-efficient for the cost, works against light troops too. Not a bad deal for 15 points. This is the version I usually take.

Am I missing something? What's slick loaders?

An Imperial Armor upgrade. For 20 points you can fire two shots from an Ordnance weapon if you haven't moved that turn.

I pretty much always use the LC on mine... I am typically firing at 2+/3+ armor, vehicles or the like, and frankly I don't really want to think about it much :-) Move 6", fire 2 AT type weapons, and if it doesn't die, repeat next turn. Maybe if I put the sponsons on the HB for the 9 shots, but even then I think I want the high STR shot... :-) But just how I play it, Ailaros plays about the only "horde" Infantry list locally, YMMV