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Bit of a stupid question but i kinda wanna know...
I started Crimson Fists after reading Rynn's world a couple of months ago and i don't know wether i missed a page or something but Missile that blew up the Chapters monastary was it on purpose, A traitor , a malfunction or something completely different that caused this to happen?

They don't say in Rynn's World, they even go on to say that the cause of the defect would never be properly explained.

They don't say why in Codex: SM either.

However, I've heard several people say that in the Codex: Assassin, an old 3rd edition supplement that allowed you to play assassin based objective games, there's a mention that the missile did not malfunction at all - An assassin had rigged the entire fortress with explosive and put massive plasma charge in the munition depot, he then rigged the missile. The missile didn't cause all the destruction, it was merely a cover up/distraction. The assassin would have done this to punish the Crimson Fists, although the book doesn't say why.

I don't have that book. And it seems I'm unable to get a solid confirmation from anybody as to weither it's in it or not.

Could it be true thought? Nothing in Rynn's World or any other book I've read denies it or make it impossible.

I personally kinda like the idea that it was a sabotage thing, rather than a mistake...

However, it raises many questions...
- What were they being punished for?
- Considering the CF are often seen as the 'lap dog' of the Inquisition and High Lord of Terra, why would assassin be sent against them? Why punish your own lapdog.
- If the punishment was meant to wipe them out, it failed... so why haven't they been finished off or disbanded following the Rynn's world incident?
- If the bomb was meant to fall during the Ork Waagh (It might not have been, mind you), than why risk losing a planet and possibly an entire sector on this gambit?

Of course there's so many possible answers and theory to those question...

It could be some Fists were turning to Chaos, so they wanted to purge them... those heretical elements did not survive the explosion, so the Inquisition saw no reason to pursue the purge.

It could be that some psycher foresaw that to avoid some great catastrophe or what not, the Crimson Fist needed to be trimmed to a much smaller, even more elite force... so they arranged a disaster that would leave only the Chapter Master, the 1st Company and a handful of other survivors around.

And so on.

Wow i didn't even think of that. That is a cool way to go i'm glad i chose the CF now. I like that better than the "mistake" that everyone calls it atleast i can give this story to defend them and your spot on with those questions i finally found out that it possilbly was not a mistake on their part and now it goes deeper and now i got the question of why would the inquistion or higher above would want to destroy thier own lapdogs.

....But all of that is based on the possibility than an old book MAY, just may have a piece of fluff hinting that the Crimson Fists were targeted by an assassin. Just remember that.

As far as I'm concerned, the Crimson Fist's monastery was wiped out in a one in a million malfunctino, kind of like your tank accidentally having its shot scatter back onto itself and getting an explosion as a result.

Tarkand wrote:However, I've heard several people say that in the Codex: Assassin, an old 3rd edition supplement that allowed you to play assassin based objective games, there's a mention that the missile did not malfunction at all - An assassin had rigged the entire fortress with explosive and put massive plasma charge in the munition depot, he then rigged the missile. The missile didn't cause all the destruction, it was merely a cover up/distraction. The assassin would have done this to punish the Crimson Fists, although the book doesn't say why.

I don't have that book. And it seems I'm unable to get a solid confirmation from anybody as to weither it's in it or not.

Well then, I shall enable you. After your thread on this subject a couple of months ago, I went and bought the two Assassins codexes to check for myself. And I can assure you, the Codex: Assassins for the 3rd edition of Warhammer 40,000 does imply that the Assassinorum were involved in the destruction of the Crimson Fists' Fortress Monastery.

Specifically, on the inside back cover there is a text box entitled "The Officio Assassinorum and Space Marine Chapters". And within that box we get this snippet:
  "There are even rumours which implicate the Officio Assassinorum in the downfall of certain Space Marine Chapters - the mysterious loss of the Fire Hawks' fleet in the warp, the unexplained destruction of the Crimson Fists' Chapter fortress on Rynn's World, the disastrous ambush of the Angels of Retribution at Alantor X and several other less well-known incidents have all been laid at the assassins' door. No definitive evidence of such activities can be brought to prove these accusations, but a trail of coincidences gives ample fuel for the conspiracy theorists."

So, the Assassinorum is implicated in the destruction in at least one source. However, there is no mention of an assassin rigging the fortress with explosives, or what, if any, reason he might have had to do so. Whether the 'malfunction' was actually caused by an Assassinorum operative is a question that is, as the passage also notes, "unlikely to ever be satisfactorily answered".

Æscholt wrote:So, the Assassinorum is implicated in the destruction in at least one source. However, there is no mention of an assassin rigging the fortress with explosives, or what, if any, reason he might have had to do so. Whether the 'malfunction' was actually caused by an Assassinorum operative is a question that is, as the passage also notes, "unlikely to ever be satisfactorily answered".

imo, it sounds as if people are basically saying, "Something like that is such an insane fluke that an assassin MUST have been involved!"

Personally, I think it should be left as a fluke. The errant planetary defense missile is one of the oldest pieces of fluff in the game - forming an important part of the background of the scenario published back in the Rogue Trader edition. Writers should know when to leave well enough alone as they attempt to make their own mark on the 40K universe.

Æscholt wrote:

Tarkand wrote:However, I've heard several people say that in the Codex: Assassin, an old 3rd edition supplement that allowed you to play assassin based objective games, there's a mention that the missile did not malfunction at all - An assassin had rigged the entire fortress with explosive and put massive plasma charge in the munition depot, he then rigged the missile. The missile didn't cause all the destruction, it was merely a cover up/distraction. The assassin would have done this to punish the Crimson Fists, although the book doesn't say why.

I don't have that book. And it seems I'm unable to get a solid confirmation from anybody as to weither it's in it or not.

Well then, I shall enable you. After your thread on this subject a couple of months ago, I went and bought the two Assassins codexes to check for myself. And I can assure you, the Codex: Assassins for the 3rd edition of Warhammer 40,000 does imply that the Assassinorum were involved in the destruction of the Crimson Fists' Fortress Monastery.

Specifically, on the inside back cover there is a text box entitled "The Officio Assassinorum and Space Marine Chapters". And within that box we get this snippet:
  "There are even rumours which implicate the Officio Assassinorum in the downfall of certain Space Marine Chapters - the mysterious loss of the Fire Hawks' fleet in the warp, the unexplained destruction of the Crimson Fists' Chapter fortress on Rynn's World, the disastrous ambush of the Angels of Retribution at Alantor X and several other less well-known incidents have all been laid at the assassins' door. No definitive evidence of such activities can be brought to prove these accusations, but a trail of coincidences gives ample fuel for the conspiracy theorists."

So, the Assassinorum is implicated in the destruction in at least one source. However, there is no mention of an assassin rigging the fortress with explosives, or what, if any, reason he might have had to do so. Whether the 'malfunction' was actually caused by an Assassinorum operative is a question that is, as the passage also notes, "unlikely to ever be satisfactorily answered".

Well thank you kind sir, I wasn't sure of the reliability of my original source, but the weight of evidence is now satisfactory enough.

I thought it was due to a rogue Ork Rokkit. I think I read somewhere that it was due to that missile that caused the Fist's hatred for the greenskins.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I thought it was due to a rogue Ork Rokkit. I think I read somewhere that it was due to that missile that caused the Fist's hatred for the greenskins.

No they hate the greenskins because of the invasion and partial destruction of their homeworld and chapter. That's the reason the missile was fired they were fighting orks.

I still think the evidence is rather shakey....part of a sentence in 3rd edition fluff? Not enough to convince me that the Imperium was trying to off the Crimson Fists. The rest of the situation doesn't make sense. Why do it in the middle of a Waaagh!!! ? Why not wait till afterwards when the Crimson Fists will be weakened by the fight and easier to kill? Why destroy a chapter that's extremely loyal? None of those questions have answers, and as such the idea that the Crimson Fists were destroyed by Imperial order doesn't really seem to fit too well with me.

And yes, I mean Imperial order. Members of the Officio Assasinorum are only deployed on missions by direct order of the High Lords of Terra. As such, this kind of sabotage would have to be directly sanctioned by them.

To me thought, all those unanswered questions and possible theory makes it a lot more fun and compelling.

It makes the Crimson Fists from an interesting chapter (I liked em and started painting my guy as CF before I ever heard of this) to the most interesting chapter .

It's always way cooler than the 'Techmarine had a brainfart while at the missile console' option

I kinda liked the "Techmarine had a brainfart while at the missile console"

Though it did say that the main tecky was having some problems with some of the missiles.

I don't really think this issue needs to be debated thoroughly. Missle screwed up, kills everyone. The end. It doesn't really make a good story, but it advances the plot.


But I'm not unsubscribing to this thread. I'd like to see if anyone can come up with a decent story to explain this "random" event

Either way i like the chapter even better cause the missile fluke would be something that i would do by mistake
or it is something amazing like an assassin destroying the monastary for the high lords of terra which leaves the question why? would they which i like the mystery.

I prefer the fluke one better. Shows anyone can be levelled by random chance.

I thought an Ork pushed the button and launched it. That's another conspiracy theory.

In the Crimson Fist IA it says that a plasma missile miss fired as it was being launched at the invading greenskins.

Æscholt wrote:
Specifically, on the inside back cover there is a text box entitled "The Officio Assassinorum and Space Marine Chapters". And within that box we get this snippet:
  "There are even rumours which implicate the Officio Assassinorum in the downfall of certain Space Marine Chapters - the mysterious loss of the Fire Hawks' fleet in the warp, the unexplained destruction of the Crimson Fists' Chapter fortress on Rynn's World, the disastrous ambush of the Angels of Retribution at Alantor X and several other less well-known incidents have all been laid at the assassins' door. No definitive evidence of such activities can be brought to prove these accusations, but a trail of coincidences gives ample fuel for the conspiracy theorists."

Very cool indeed, I had never seen nor heard of that before. But the question would be then, why would the Officio want to bring about the downfall of apparently loyal chapters?

Here is what the IA: Crimson Fists says on the matter

The Crimson Fists' fortress-monastery had been destroyed. By infernal chance, a single warhead, launched from the Laculum battery, had faltered on its trajectory, falling from the edge of the stratosphere back towards the ground. One single missile should have proved insignificant to the mighty adamantium walls of the fortress -monastery, but this was not the case. The missile struck an unknown weak point, penetrating deep into the rock upon which the fortress stood.

Its fuse set to burrow through the metres thick armoured hide of a starship before striking the chapter's arsenal. The resulting protecting ordnance capable of crippling a capital vessel, ripping the heart out of the mountain on which the fortress stood. The arsenal, the fortress-monastery of the Crimson Fists, the mountain, and an area half a mile wide were atomised in a heartbeat.

Just to add a further bit of interest. The very first 40k missions revolved around the attack on Ryann's world. The example mission in Rogue Trader (Battle at the farm) featured Pedro Cantor held up at an old Farmhouse fending off an Ork patrol, shortly after the disaster. White dwarf 94 had a second mission which was set in the Ryann's world's first city.

Both describe the event as an errant ground to space missile from the marines own planetary defence array, which fell to the ground on top of the main arsenal. White Dwarf described it as "A trillion to one bullseye" and also said it was wholly unintentional, but that isn't necessarily gospel.

Personally I like random chance being the cause for all this, it actually seems more dramatic and depressing for such a tragedy to occur completely randomly. The assassin theory is just silly and makes no sense.

Also Crimsons Fists rock, in fact anything related to Imperial Fists rocks.

I would have to disagree on t he "silliness" bit. there's a lot of fluff that points at it being more than an accident. Has the reason they were targeted been explained? no not really. Something that crazy could have only been intentionally set up. There's just no way to fudge your rocket aiming that badly as an accident. you might as well equate that to trying to shoot someone but aiming the gun right between your own eyes. If it looks like an accident then the assassinorum has done a splendid job.
But why the crimson fists? Well, If there WAS something wrong they certainly fixed it!

There's only one piece of fluff that even HINTS at it being something other than an accident, and that's a piece of fluff dating back to 3rd edition, so its continued validity is in doubt.

As was said, it was a one in a million chance. The tiny chance that the missile would fail, the tiny chance that it would hit in a weak point on the wall and penetrate to the magazine and vaporize everything....The Imperium is huge in its expanse and scale, and even the most improbable events will happen once in a while.

And since those improbable events make a good story we hear about them instead of the thousands upon thousands of times things worked exactly like they were supposed to.

Mukkin'About wrote:I would have to disagree on t he "silliness" bit. there's a lot of fluff that points at it being more than an accident. Has the reason they were targeted been explained? no not really. Something that crazy could have only been intentionally set up. There's just no way to fudge your rocket aiming that badly as an accident. you might as well equate that to trying to shoot someone but aiming the gun right between your own eyes. If it looks like an accident then the assassinorum has done a splendid job.
But why the crimson fists? Well, If there WAS something wrong they certainly fixed it!

They didn't aim it badly the missile failed.
As others have said there is little evidence to prove the assassins did it.
You can believe it if you want.

Well it seems like a better story than "whoops there it is"
Given the alternative stories, i will choose the most grimdark.
If it really was a monumental screwup, that's kinda lame.

Not really, to me it gives the story more focus on the Crimson Fists, which is what we want. If they tried to focus more on the 'hint' that Assasinorum might have been behind it, they would have to have foucsed less on the Crimson Fists, and that's really not as fun.

What's more grimdark? Reading about the gallant last stand of a few hundred super human warriors against an army of greenskins? Or a superhuman doing an investigation, slowly, to find out if MAYBE the missile wasn't an accident.

The idea that the last stand was directly related to their own side and thus completely avoidable and tragic.
Not to take away form the fists really they do have a good back story.. I just like the hints as being a bit tastier than what you have at face value. that's all. like a story within a story

Mukkin'About wrote:Has the reason they were targeted been explained? no not really. Something that crazy could have only been intentionally set up. There's just no way to fudge your rocket aiming that badly as an accident. you might as well equate that to trying to shoot someone but aiming the gun right between your own eyes. If it looks like an accident then the assassinorum has done a splendid job.
But why the crimson fists? Well, If there WAS something wrong they certainly fixed it!

Thinking like the above is the sole reason that the "rumored to be done by the assassins" bit in 3rd edition exists. They didn't actually do it, but many of the citizens of the Imperium automatically assume that a million-to-one disaster like that MUST have been the work of an intelligent force as opposed to just a complete fluke.

Mukkin'About wrote:Well it seems like a better story than "whoops there it is"
Given the alternative stories, i will choose the most grimdark.
If it really was a monumental screwup, that's kinda lame.

Actually now that I think about it, they are both grimdark, but one more than the other.

Adding assassins, yes would make it grimdark. It shows the bickering and infighting of the IoM and how could an empire so vast underfire from so many races, be so childish.

But keeping it as a monumental screwup, is different. I don't think that the screwup was intended to take centre stage. It was just used to drive the plot forward and to show that even the mighty SM are susceptable to luck and chance (look at the Lamenters). It adds a different level of grimdark, because even with all the planning and double/triple checking, things can seriously mess up. The crimson fists managed to fight off the orks and eventually win, but at what cost? They saved their planet but with a loss of almost 90% of the chapter.

So phyrric victory trumps backstabbing... that's my opinion

I don't see how the missile being a betrayal instead of mistake change anything to the pyrrhic-ness of the victory.

The cost was the same.

Tarkand wrote:I don't see how the missile being a betrayal instead of mistake change anything to the pyrrhic-ness of the victory.

The cost was the same.

From what I understand is a phyrric victory is going into a fight, winning, and then losing way too many people.
In the case of the betrayal, to me, it seems as it was sabotage, which in turn has nothing to do with the phyrric-ness.

I dunno, I just feel that badluck and chance make for a better grimdark explanation than the meddling of assassins

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tarkand wrote:I don't see how the missile being a betrayal instead of mistake change anything to the pyrrhic-ness of the victory.

The cost was the same.

From what I understand is a phyrric victory is going into a fight, winning, and then losing way too many people.
In the case of the betrayal, to me, it seems as it was sabotage, which in turn has nothing to do with the phyrric-ness.

I dunno, I just feel that badluck and chance make for a better grimdark explanation than the meddling of assassins

If it was sabotage then it wasn't a phyrric victory. Ironically the Crimson Fists would have easily won the battle for Rynns World if that missile hadn't blown them all the up.