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So I've decided to start this thread both in defense of Games Workshop and because I'm getting sick of hearing about this Scribe or Scribed or whatever the Feth its called.

Is GW's prices a little crazy. YES! No doubt about it. However, we must all pay the price in order to play the game. Lets face it, if EVERY Warhammer player in the world stopped buying codex's and models, and used Scribe and Ebay to buy their models, GW would go out of business and then guess what? No more Warhammer.

I have several friends who insist on using Scribe and do not want to pay the price for codex's, Imperial Armor, etc. Also I have just recently seen a thread in YMDC in which a person was quoting an Eldar Codex they got off Scribe and the Codex was WRONG.

There is a reason why Scribe is not allowed in tournaments. The reason is because not only is it illegal, as it is stealing, but also because anybody could take that information and alter it. I could say Eldrad can use as many Psychic powers a turn as he wants, or I could say Swarmlord has a 3+ invulnerable always. To someone who is starting out and is not familiar with Warhammer but wants to "avoid" the price of a codex they wouldn't know and would be in for a rude awakening when they go to their first tournament and find out that their army doesn't work the way they thought.

I get angry at my friends who use Scribe for, probably the most important reason, I and other players at our FLGS pay the prices for Codex's, Imperial Armor, etc, why shouldn't you? What makes you so special?

Anyway I needed to vent my anger after hearing about this Fething Scribe website and reading that latest thread. I hope other Dakkites can agree with me that although GW's prices may be a bit on the expensive side, their Codex's are written very well (most of them) and we don't want to cheat other people and the economy by using illegally downloaded Codex's.

Meh. I don't think piracy is immoral. Then again, I don't really support the idea of intellectual property. In fact, there are many things about property in general that I disagree with. But then again I'm just an odd ball.

I don't care if my friends buy their codex or not, so long as it doesn't interrupt us from playing the game. I go down to the local GW often, so I have to have a codex to play there. Granted I bought my codex before I started playing there regularly, but that was because I believed it had value to me. If a book is priced far above its value to me, then I'm not going to buy it if I can access is somewhere else. In this case, its not like the're losing the sale - if I can't access it though piracy I just wouldn't buy it or have access to it. In many ways, I don't see how this is different from a friend having it and I just look at it frequently.

I agree with you, I personally believe piracy is wrong and look down on anyone who does it. GW does charge high but if we all stopped buying from them then there would be no warhammer at all.

I can understand all this ... however I would like a digital version for purchasing the real version. That way I can keep my codexes in my box and still have access to them now

I agree with you! If gw goes so does warhammer why not support it? Im willing to pay the price too keep something i like going.

Personally I think GW should just get rid of the printed codex and release them online for free. This allows them to make updates and erratas faster, fix imbalances and allow everyone to read over the rules so you dont get random crap like some guy pulling a wacky rule and then refusing to show you the codex. At the prices their plastics and paints are, it shouldnt be that much of a blow to their profits.

Illegally downloading codexes is wrong. Now imperial armor on the other hand, that is basically the same thing as a codex, but costs many times the amount for the same product. Forge world is fething ridiculous and I would never buy an imperial armor book from them, and even for me to buy one of their models, it better be FETHING GOOD for me to pay that kind of insane price for a piece of resin which probably cost $5 to make.

*Meanwhile, in the GW executive board room*

Random dude: Hey guys, I know, lets keep making our codex products, but instead of selling them we can give them away for free. This would allow us to also make other free products faster.

CEO: You're fired.

So, when it comes to forge world piracy, I say this: ARR MATEY! (There is no way I would consider buying a $70 book that is pretty much the same as a codex.)

Forge World is the one who is stealing lol!

GW I respect though. Sure, their prices might be sorta high too, but they have a great product. I would never consider pirating from them.

EmilCrane wrote:I agree with you, I personally believe piracy is wrong and look down on anyone who does it.

Stealing is for scumbags, pure and simple.

Rationalize it all you want. If you steal, you are a boil on the ass of humanity.

I'm against stealing and piracy. Mostly becuase I would never get away with it.

Their Profits might actually rise if their codexes were free. I have turned three friends onto Warhammer solely by showing them the codex of their prefered army (no, it wasnt SMs =P). if they were more widely available more people would consider the game, allowing them to generate more sales.

Purely to play devils advocate, since everyone here seems to be pretty much of the same opinion..

Who's to say what is right and wrong? What is morality?
In reality it's just a series of rules that keep societies working and their people in line. It's not WRONG to steal, there is no WRONG- it's just a jerk thing to do because you wouldn't want someone stealing from you. etc etc

A more concrete reason in "favor" of pirating is that it encourages people to get involved in the game that wouldn't otherwise because of the price tag. I have a lot of friends who are huge geeks and really love playing games like 40k, but no one wants to pay 70$ for a rule book. I would argue sales would go up if they decreased their prices too. I can't imagine plastic soldiers cost that much to manufacture and they would have a lot more people buying. I almost never buy straight from GW, I always try to buy second hand if I can.
Of course you can't blame GW for their ridiculous prices, they get away with it, so power to them. However, I feel no guilt about not supporting them by paying their outrageous prices every time I want to get a new unit or codex. I don't have a lot of income- I'm not going to spend the small amount I do have buying overpriced soldiers and books in bulk. (And before someone pounces on me, I do have hard copies of the BRB and multiple codices- they came with the first army I bought.)

But what makes pirating a codex any worse than scratch-building your own leman russ? Why is it worse to pirate a codex than to share a codex with your friend? You're using GW's intellectual property without paying them. You're not taking anything away from anyone other than hypothetical profits. There's no difference, but for some reason pirating is frowned upon.



tl;dr Calling pirating "stealing" is wrong since nothing is taken from the "victim." It just assumes that one would go out and buy the item if they weren't able to pirate it. As I said, I have friends who would play but can't afford it. One of them pirates the books and that's the only reason he started playing..
However, I do acknowledge it's bad for GW's business, but... meh. They do alright and I do support them by buying their miniatures and keeping their product's value up.
As for the morality of pirating, morality is a social concept that I feel no obligation to pretend exists as anything other than "I won't kill you so please don't kill me." Maybe I'm a pariah for my views, but whatever.

I'll openly admit I've downloaded codexes. I've done so for around 7 or 8 of them, but as it stands I only have 3 on my computer. One of those three is the Witch Hunters codex, the others are Chaos Daemons and CSM. Why do I download them? Preview more or less, I no longer live close enough to a stockist to have a look instore. I don't download anything I'm not actually considering to buy, once I've decided one way or the other I delete it, and I'll always buy the codex before any models. In the end this has resulted in me buying three codexes (though I only use the Eldar one). So over all my downloading has resulted in more purchases by me then I otherwise would have.

The exceptions to this were the Rulebook and CSM codex. I downloaded the rulebook when it was released to carry me over for the short time until I could buy the hardcopy (I will tell you now I'll do the exact same thing when a new Eldar codex is released). I have the CSM because my friend accidentally left his copy (hardcopy) at home one day when we wanted to play, I don't delete it on the off chance it happens again. So those are the only two cases where my downloading wasn't effecting potential sales (Rulebook = guaranteed sale no matter what. CSM = No chance of buying it/substituting for an already purchased copy).

Though I may have rambled a bit, my opinion is: Downloading has it's place. That place it not as a free copy of the product, and as such should not be done unless you have or have intention to purchase the product.

Dracos wrote:Meh. I don't think piracy is immoral.

I don't think break into your house and stealing all your stuff is immoral, but hey im just an odd-ball.

On-topic, I have all of the different army codecis downloaded on my PC. I have a purchased copy of Eldar and CSM codex since I actually have those models and play those armies. If i start playing a new army i will get the codex for that army.

I have a couple of proxy models but everything else is original GW stuff.

The difference between copying a publication and stealing physical property is that by copying a publication, I am not depriving the owner of usage of it. When you steal physical property, the owner is not longer able to use it.

phyrephly wrote:

Dracos wrote:Meh. I don't think piracy is immoral.

I don't think break into your house and stealing all your stuff is immoral, but hey im just an odd-ball.

Straw man argument. No one is talking about breaking into their FLGS and stealing stuff.
A better comparison would be he's selling a famous painting and you take a picture of it on your phone.

I was wondering what your stance was on buying used Codices?

I'm not saying people should steal or download (their codex) illegally, I try to support GW by buying product in their stores (or at other hobby stores). But isn't buying things off ebay or from a "used" section or something cheating GW just as much as stealing a codex?

Cantus wrote:

phyrephly wrote:

Dracos wrote:Meh. I don't think piracy is immoral.

I don't think break into your house and stealing all your stuff is immoral, but hey im just an odd-ball.

Straw man argument. No one is talking about breaking into their FLGS and stealing stuff.
A better comparison would be he's selling a famous painting and you take a picture of it on your phone.

It's not a straw man at all. Stealing is stealing was his obvious point.

Monster Rain wrote:

Cantus wrote:

phyrephly wrote:

Dracos wrote:Meh. I don't think piracy is immoral.

I don't think break into your house and stealing all your stuff is immoral, but hey im just an odd-ball.

Straw man argument. No one is talking about breaking into their FLGS and stealing stuff.
A better comparison would be he's selling a famous painting and you take a picture of it on your phone.

It's not a straw man at all. Stealing is stealing was his obvious point.

......but its not stealing is my obvious point.

But notice that anyone who has been charged with this type of action is not charged with stealing. This action is not the same as stealing.

So... what about people who take the time to re-create moulds and do their own casting?

And I strongly disagree with the 'most codices are well written' point, as they are meant to be rules documents, and I'm yet to find one that and be picked up and used for a game without creating issues.

I have a friend who made a replica of a vindicator. I have no problem with that either. As long as he isn't trying to pass it off or sell it as an original, I have no issues.

Cantus wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Cantus wrote:

phyrephly wrote:

Dracos wrote:Meh. I don't think piracy is immoral.

I don't think break into your house and stealing all your stuff is immoral, but hey im just an odd-ball.

Straw man argument. No one is talking about breaking into their FLGS and stealing stuff.
A better comparison would be he's selling a famous painting and you take a picture of it on your phone.

It's not a straw man at all. Stealing is stealing was his obvious point.

......but its not stealing is my obvious point.

But your point is wrong.

Monster Rain wrote:

Cantus wrote:
quotes

But your point is wrong.

..Fair enough. Care to be more specific?

Buy a codex.
6 months later codex is obsolete
Buy another codex.

£30+ for a few pages of fun and games.

Factor in other armies you own that require Army Books.
You need to find something quickish on an army you will/may play. Sure another £17.50, it is a mere bagatelle.


(Please no, "if you can't afford it ..." Is too too dull darlings.)
and no am not condoning denying GW some cash which they will get off you eventually anyhoo cos that £17.50 gets spent on another box of toy soldiers instead of a book you will look at but once.

Dracos wrote:I have a friend who made a replica of a vindicator. I have no problem with that either. As long as he isn't trying to pass it off or sell it as an original, I have no issues.

Okay , now he (or anyone elses 'friend') has gone and borrowed a whole heap of single figures - practically one from every unit you'd need to build an army - from some people, and moulded and cast them all, he now want's to play 2500pts at the local gs

edit: @ Monster Rain

Okay stop with the quoting, we don't need to see the whole conversation every post.

You are incorrect, it is not called stealing. Stealing is something different.

Cantus wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Cantus wrote:

phyrephly wrote:

Dracos wrote:Meh. I don't think piracy is immoral.

I don't think break into your house and stealing all your stuff is immoral, but hey im just an odd-ball.

Straw man argument. No one is talking about breaking into their FLGS and stealing stuff.
A better comparison would be he's selling a famous painting and you take a picture of it on your phone.

It's not a straw man at all. Stealing is stealing was his obvious point.

......but its not stealing is my obvious point.

So still having use of a stolen object makes it not stolen? So if I steal a thesis you wrote, you can still use it because you still have the thesis but now I have it as well. It isn't stealing in the strictest sense of the word but it when you say "you don't think it's immoral" you are trying to say it's right. But it's not right.

Cantus wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Cantus wrote:
quotes

But your point is wrong.

..Fair enough. Care to be more specific?

Nah. I guess if you don't any integrity I'm not going to change it through a forum discussion.

If you can't afford it, I suppose I should be sympathetic.