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Hey all,

So right down to business:

A particularly stubborn player at my LFGS has come up with an interesting theory on the USR Rage and how he can use it to allow... unconventional movement and freedom for someone suffering from Rage.

Now unfortunately this is a hard subject to discuss in word form (since it is all about movement and how models interact) so picture time!

So the Rage USR states that: "in the movement phase, units subject to Rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy", run towards them in the Shooting phase, and consolidate towards them in the Assault phase. Which is all fine and dandy and plenty of fun to play with. In the example in use, a Death Company Dreadnought is 2" away from a Rhino, with a Devastator Squad behind it:



Now every way I've played this is the Dreadnought must move towards the Rhino the 1" to get as close as it can to it, leaving the squishy gooiness of the Dev squad untarnished for now.

Here comes the 'Rage Dance' as we've coined it that is up for debate. This player states that since the Dreadnought never moves AWAY from the Rhino, and no where does it say move towards the closest visible enemy and STOP, that the Dreadnought can do a lil jig around the edge!



Then even Fleet, continuing it's movement:



And then, since he is now within the 6" to assault the Dev Squad, assault them!




He even goes further on to say that Death Company models with jump packs can jump over a Rhino, staying within 1" of it, and then assault something on the other side.

Unfortunately I can find no rule confirming or denying this method of play. So Dakka!

- Do you think this is legal within the rules and is easily accepted?

- RaW legal, but a serious cheesball maneuver?

- Breakin' rules? (if so, which?)

- Don't really care either way!

Tell me what you think!

Well as I see it, moving around it isn't moving towards it, which the rules specify. Also, how could he assault the Devestators when he is moving away from the Rhino? I think he was trying to pull a fast one there.

In the USR, it doesn't say you must assault the closest target, merely move / run towards it. =/

Valkyrie wrote:Also, how could he assault the Devestators when he is moving away from the Rhino?

Rage doesn't require that you assault the closest enemy unit, that's how. The only demand is you move toward it.

The dancing around bit does seem fishy, but he is quite correct in that he's at least not moving away... I'd call it against the spirit of the game but can't quite come up with an argument to forbid it.

It says you 'must' run? Don't remember that.

Well, I don't have my BRB on me, but here's my take:

Replace the USR's wording with 'Rhino' and ask yourself these questions:

Did I move towards the rhino? Yes.

Did I run towards the rhino? No. At least not in the pictures above.

He ran laterally with the Rhino, not towards, I would say. I would be more inclined to let him get away with it if, in the movement phase, he moved towards the rhino, across its front arc and about 1" away from its top left corner. Then, in the shooting phase, he could run towards the Rhino, but still move laterally in the picture above. And then assault.

I don't think it's cheating. I'm not even sure it's beardy, just making lemonade out of lemons.

I see nothing against the rules with this. I akin this to the earth is always being pulled toward the sun, it's our rotational momentum that keeps us in a stable orbit. I know real world examples don't mean much, but it's a comparison of wording.
The Raging unit as only affected by rage in the movement and shooting phase.
The Raging unit is never moving away from the closest unit in the movement and shooting phase, and is in fact moving toward the nearest unit even if it is not getting closer.

Sorry Puma, I meant IF it runs, it must then move towards the closest visible enemy.

So lets say the Rhino was already 1" away from the Dreadnought, would you not allow the Dreadnought to move at all?

Towards: in the direction of: to walk toward the river.

Dictionary.com

Jayjester, there is a difference between direction of the forces acting on an object and the direction of the object's motion.

In the case of the Earth (or any rotating body, be it a planet, a satellite, or a ball on a string) there are two forces acting. Gravity pulling perpendicular to forward motion. This is what causes the motion to be circular. (this is an oversimplification)

The motion of the earth on the other hand never goes Towards the sun. If it did we wouldn't be worried about whether or not CO2 caused global warming, we'd know it was a giant nuclear furnace. (Earth's elliptical path is less than 5% off of a true circle, yes the earth does get closer, but not a significant amount, especially in this context)

Moving <around> an object is not moving <towards> an object. In order to move towards an object you must lessen the distance between yourself and the object. He is clearly violating that because he's not changing his displacement once he hits that 1" mark.

<referred to the wrong poster, edited to correct>

Calculated.Spigot wrote:Sorry Puma, I meant IF it runs, it must then move towards the closest visible enemy.

So lets say the Rhino was already 1" away from the Dreadnought, would you not allow the Dreadnought to move at all?

Probably not. The rule says he must move 'toward' the nearest enemy unit. He cannot move 'toward' anymore. If he's measuring his tape away from the Rhino (even laterally), then he is not moving 'toward' the Rhino, he's moving toward where ever he is pointing his measuring tape.

Moving laterally to=/=moving towards :*(

It doesn't say you have to RUN: it says you must MOVE towards it-that's all. I use my jump packs to jump to the far side of the model, staying an inch away I am supposed to-I've still moved towards the model, just to the far side of it-I haven't moved away from it. This is one of the ways to fiddle with rage and from what I have seen on here, quite a few people do it besides me. Also, why can't you move towards the rear end of a unit, instead of towards the closest spot of a unit-I can jump to the back of a rhino rather than the front if I have the room-there is really no reason this can't happen. It's called smart playing.

The rule does say "towards," so surely you do have to close the distance between the dread and the rhino?

But the rule does not say "directly towards," probably to allow you to deviate around dangerous terrain and such. So it seems you have plenty of wiggle room to obey the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit. Start your move 2 inches away from the rhino and end your move 1.99 inches away from the rhino.

Great topic for YMDC and RAW analysis, but life is too short to play with people who actually want to do this on the table top.

timetowaste85 wrote:It doesn't say you have to RUN: it says you must MOVE towards it-that's all.

Not quite. It says if you choose to run, you must do so towards the nearest visible enemy unit.

timetowaste85 wrote: I use my jump packs to jump to the far side of the model, staying an inch away I am supposed to-I've still moved towards the model, just to the far side of it-I haven't moved away from it.

We weren't discussing this aspect of it. We were talking about the example that was presented to us.

timetowaste85 wrote:This is one of the ways to fiddle with rage and from what I have seen on here, quite a few people do it besides me. Also, why can't you move towards the rear end of a unit, instead of towards the closest spot of a unit-I can jump to the back of a rhino rather than the front if I have the room-there is really no reason this can't happen. It's called smart playing.

Again, we weren't discussing this. We were discussing the example given.

Yeah I'd have to agree with kmdl in that, while within RaW it is definitely against the spirit of the game.

It'd be awesome to find something in the BRB to dispute it but I really can't think of anything.

Just when I thought Blood Angels couldn't get any cheesier...

Goddard wrote:Just when I thought Blood Angels couldn't get any cheesier...

Hey, you could also do the LOS explanation for "visible" and turn the dread around. No enemies in LOS - no Rage. Moving backwards is perfectly acceptable after all...

Not that this move was invented by the BA, it's CSM players that try to avoid shooting their own units with frenzying dreads.

As for the jump pack question, you can't do that. The moment you clear the back part of the vehicle, from that point on until you move an inch away, you are moving away from the model. Pull out some models and do it - you'll see what I mean.

However, if you're able to move just one DC model "towards", then the rest of the unit can move freely. The unit has to move towards, not each model.

As for the Dread question, I'm inclined to agree with the player, because of the odd wording of the Rage rule, but I'm not 100% sure.

I don't see how this is within RaW? (not that Rage really works properly RaW as by RaW you have to always move towards closest enemy model, well you do until GW makes some invisible models).

How is he moving towards the rhino with those lateral movements? The rule does not state that you must not move away from it (the argument you are putting forward) but that you must move towards. Any movement that does not take you closer to the closest enemy unit on the table is illegal RaW.

WARNING: Hypothetical situation follows

If there were a piece of impassable terrain in front of the Dread, but he was still able to see the Rhino, could he not move? Any movement used to get around the terrain would not get you any closer until after you've cleared it.

The rulebook says "units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."

In the OP, it has done that, after it moves to an inch away. The Rage rule does not say no other movement is allowed. As long as no movement from this point on takes him away from the enemy, it won't change the fact that it's still as close as possible to the enemy unit, given the circumstances. Besides that, it doesn't say "as fast as possible in a direct path towards the closest visible enemy." If the Dread were more than 6" away from the Rhino, it would move 6" directly towards it. But if its less than that, its still free to move 6", as long as no movement places it in a spot that would make it not be as close as possible.

The Dread is still allowed to use its full move, as long as that move gets it as close as possible to the Rhino. You shouldn't look at the move in the OP as different sections of movement. It's not "one inch forward, two inches along the front, 3 inches along the side", it's "one 6" move that puts it as close as possible to the Rhino." (So, in the hypothetical above, you would still have to move, as long as it was possible to get closer to the closest visible enemy with that movement.)

Once you get to 1", you can no longer move/run/consolidate towards the closest enemy. Moving towards something is not the same as orbiting something at the closest distance. I think it could move to within 1" of the Rhino, choose not to Run and then assault the Devs if they were within 6".

Homer

If there were a piece of impassable terrain in front of the Dread, but he was still able to see the Rhino, could he not move? Any movement used to get around the terrain would not get you any closer until after you've cleared it.

Even if the dread couldn't draw LoS to the Rhino he would still be prohibited from moving. Unless you're using invisible models all enemy models are always visible.

In the OP, it has done that, after it moves to an inch away. The Rage rule does not say no other movement is allowed. As long as no movement from this point on takes him away from the enemy, it won't change the fact that it's still as close as possible to the enemy unit, given the circumstances.

It doesn't state what other movement is allowed/disallowed it states exactly what movement you must take. All your movement that you can make must take you towards the nearest enemy model. Are the shimmies towards the Rhino? If no then they are not allowed.

Moving laterally is not 'moving towards'.

FlingitNow wrote:

If there were a piece of impassable terrain in front of the Dread, but he was still able to see the Rhino, could he not move? Any movement used to get around the terrain would not get you any closer until after you've cleared it.

Even if the dread couldn't draw LoS to the Rhino he would still be prohibited from moving. Unless you're using invisible models all enemy models are always visible.

In 40k, "visible" = "in LOS". See page 16.

In 40k, "visible" = "in LOS". See page 16.

LoS =/= visible.

Otherwise all you have to do is turn you models arround and you can ignore Rage (or have them point directly at the unit you wish them to move towards).

LOS does equal visible. Read the rules I cited, please. Simply pretending they don't exist doesn't work.

Non-vehicle units functionally have 360 degree LOS, per Turning and Facing, page 11.

Vehicles have limited LOS based on their weapon arcs, per pages 58 and 72. Yes, this means that you could technically turn a dread around to try to offset Rage; just as you could do this with a Bloodthirster and Frenzy in Warhammer FB. It does tend to expose your rear armor, though, and will be frowned on by many players as an exploit.

interesting but here is what i see.

1 : "In the Movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."

in this case i believe "toward" has this meaning : you are your maximum movement close to the enemy unit, OR you are as close to the enemy unit as you can get following the 1" minimum range. this means that you could move diagnally toward the target less than your movement away as long as you end 1" away from the unit, so you have successfully move toward the unit as close as you can get.


2: "In the Shooting phase, they are free to decide whether to run, but if they do they must run towards the closest visible enemy."

it is important to note that running is optional, if you do run/fleet you must run fleet "towards" the enemy unit. sliding down the side of a rhino is not moving "towards" the closest enemy unit. so it does not fulfil this requirement.

3 ) it is interesting to note that the rage rule does not specifiy that you must launch an assault, nor against whom so you can launch an assault against anyone in range. it also does not remove the prohibition for assaulting after running, and as i dont think any space marine dreads have fleet...

4) "In the Assault phase they must always consolidate towards the closest visible enemy."

see rule 1 for requirements.

FlingitNow wrote:

If there were a piece of impassable terrain in front of the Dread, but he was still able to see the Rhino, could he not move? Any movement used to get around the terrain would not get you any closer until after you've cleared it.

Even if the dread couldn't draw LoS to the Rhino he would still be prohibited from moving. Unless you're using invisible models all enemy models are always visible.

So, if an enemy is visible, and it is possible that at the end of the movement the Dread would be closer, you still couldn't move because part of the move doesn't bring you closer?

Let me stop you before you answer. Models don't move in parts. Models (typically) move 6", and while it's true that those moves can involve turns, sharp corners, etc. the move is still one whole move. You don't check if you followed Rage in the middle of your move, you check at the end of the move. According to your thoughts, if I have a DC Dread in base contact behind a group of my own guys, I could declare his "move" (which would would be 0") before moving my front unit, and break the Rage rules that way if I want. *The reason I would want to do this is to destroy the vehicle in front during shooting, which would let the DC Run to the next closest unit and assault, for example. I think of the Rage rules being similar to the Fall Back!/Trapped! rules that state you can move around obstacles, although it should be noted Fall Back! says you move "directly towards", and there's no way to sidestep the board edge, so it's much more restrictive.

In the OP, it has done that, after it moves to an inch away. The Rage rule does not say no other movement is allowed. As long as no movement from this point on takes him away from the enemy, it won't change the fact that it's still as close as possible to the enemy unit, given the circumstances.

It doesn't state what other movement is allowed/disallowed it states exactly what movement you must take. All your movement that you can make must take you towards the nearest enemy model. Are the shimmies towards the Rhino? If no then they are not allowed.

Exactly. And the closest you can be is 1" away. You can use your entire movement, as long as your movement (in total) takes you as close as possible. If it said that you must move in a straight line, then that'd be pretty easy to check. If, however, it says you must move as fast as possible towards (normally considered a straight line but there could be obstacles and the simple fact that your fastest speed could be greater than the distance needed), then it opens up a few more options. They don't really define "towards" as anything. "Towards" by itself (which a lot of people are using in this thread) is actually not that restrictive. A diagonal movement that ends up closer is technically "towards" (be glad I'm not arguing THAT ). "Fast as possible" simply means "move the greatest distance available (usually 6", 12" for Jump Infantry, 1-6" for difficult, etc.)"

Now, which one is in the rules?

I'd like for someone to please explain to me how a move that has you end up as close as possible to the closest enemy unit does not satisfy "move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy."

I think it's worse than that, since all of the objections seem to lead to definitions that would cause a unit to become stuck on sufficiently long rows of rhinos, contradicting the part in the rule about moving as fast as possible.

Take a row of two or three rhinos, put an Eldar Wraithlord on one side, and the raging dreadnought on the other. In order to get into base contact with Wraithlord, the dreadnought must move AWAY from the enemy model, and even end its movement further away than it started.

Another thing to consider, is what are you referring to when you say "closer". In the case of the impassable terrain cited, sure by moving you would be farther away "as the bird flies" but seeing as your only possible route towards the enemy takes you that way, would it not be closer? I understand this can be a slippery slow argument, however I think the relevant portion of the rule is where it says "as fast as possible". Moving around the impassable terrain is the fastest possible way you are able to get closer to the enemy.

Honestly, while really borderline shady... I see this as perfectly legal up to the corner of the vehicle. The dread would have had to stop at the corner of the rhino because at the point where he is turning the corner he would have been heading away from the rhino in order to make the next turn to the right. Vehicles must always move forward or backward, they can turn as many times as they want, but must always move forward or backward.



Up till that corner portion he could easily state that he is moving toward the corner of the rhino which would be perfectly legal. After that point he has to head away from the rhino to get around the corner and start heading the other direction which would be disallowed.

Now on a rounded vehicle like a Wave Serpent would throw a loop in things.