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Over the past few years since I got back into the hobby I have noticed only one trend in the pricing policy that GW works under: upwards. There's a constant and consistent raising of prices across pretty much the entire range of products GW offers, from books to terrain to the miniatures themselves. To those of us already ingratiated into the hobby, this isn't that much of a problem; if you were going to pay £20 for a Tactical Squad box having to pay £22, whilst possibly causing some grumbling, won't be too much of a issue.

The problems really start to arise when you look at the target market that GW is aiming its products at, namely those aged 14-18(ish), with a very high focus upon getting new players into the hobby. This demograph doesn't have its own steady stream of income yet, and is often reliant upon parents and other benefactors to buy models/supplies for them. When a parent looks at the RRP for a Tactical Squad box and then realises that they have to buy 2 of these and Rhinos and a Commander and Terminators etc etc. its fully understandable that they will baulk at the barrier to entry and be financially inclined to deny Jimmy his 40k models and buy him an Xbox game instead.

This is a problem for GW, as they aren't hitting their expected sales targets (exemplified by the recent financial report). To try and correct this, GW raise their prices, hoping to eke out a higher margin of profit per box. This has three effects: a) it reinforces Jimmy's parents that investing into a hobby such as this is simply too expensive b) it raises the barrier to entry even further and c) it punishes long-term customers of GW to such an extent that they either cannot afford GW prices anymore, or cannot justify paying outlandish prices for plastic figures. In all three circumstances GW is losing.

Ultimately, I think GW have just about reached the pinnacle of the prices that can be justifiably charged to hobbyists. There is a plethora of competing products in the market nowadays that weren't around 10-15 years ago, which people will turn to should the product be comparable. If GW continue this aggressive and, frankly, damaging run of price increase after increase after increase, they will simply price themselves out of the market completely and see their sales drop far, far more than the 4% they have experienced thus far.

What do you guys think? Are GW directly damaging their own profits with this business strategy? How do you see them turning around, and recuperating, that sales decrease?

L. Wrex

To be honest I don't think your to far off the mark.

If they lowered their prices I'd probably buy/spend more than I do now just because i'm a sucker for false economy and more likely to buy 3 lots of £10 models than 1 £30 model.

I've only been buying my beloved guard for about 18 months and there has been a minimum of 25% price increase on a standard box of cadians (not including the recent VAT hike). There recent pricing has caused me to buy second hand models for the first time.

If I was a parent I'm not sure i'd pay for my child 40k hobby, with computer games at least the shops have sales, reward cards and trade in.

Well there are two options to them to counter decreasing sales revenue.

1 - Lower prices to sell larger volume.

2 - Raise prices to maintain cash value from reducing sales.

I imaging they feel they may have reached market saturation point inalot of areas and that price rasing, given the reguarly turnover of new gamers in the 13-16 year old age group means that many dont stay in the hobby long enough to see the price increase. As this group is funded by its parents, new entrants dont know any better.

The problem now is that the parents dont have the income either... Thats what will cause them issues.

I suspect they will close alot more stores, especially those in high value locations (they recently closed one of the two GW stores in Ireland) to decrease the cost base further. Moving away from traditional sculpting and production in low wage economys will also help, as will selling IP rights, to maintain profit margins.

However unless the economys around the world pick up, they will be facing an uphill struggle for a few years.

I dont see them changing much to be honest. If they wanted to grab a massive influx you would have already seen 'sales' or lowering of costs. With metal prices and fuel costs remaining high, and increasing, they face an increasing bottom line that they have little control over. This is why they will reduce shops and staff and raise prices.

I used to work for GW before I went back to uni, quite enjoyed it, have played Warhammer since 1984 and enjoy the backgrounds. But I aint bought anything in over seven years. Even with online discount retailers, I still find it too pricey and lately I dislike alot of the items they make. To me the quality seems to have slipped.

Very hard to say. About twice a year GW have a price increase and there is a storm of protest on sites like Dakka.

Then we all go on buying.

However it seems as if GW's sales have been decreasing gradually for several years, so perhaps they really have hit the limit.

I know when I started Tyranids I bought a few boxes at GW to get started. Then I bought the rest of my stuff from Maelstrom during a sale (about 20% off), or from eBay. Half my army was 50% off retail price. This was all last year when prices were lower.

Now I look back at my six Zoanthropes and suddenly I realise if I was starting Tyranids now, I would need to spend nearly £75 just for those models!!!

It hurts less if you buy a few models each month.

Even so, I wonder if they really have got too expensive.

I stopped buying directly from GW a while ago, save for a few Direct Only models (like the hellcannon that refuses to be put together).

I look back at my armies and realise that buying them now, i'd have spent several hundred pounds more for the same things.

When I got into the hobby, a box of Chaos Marines as they come now was £18; seeing that rise to £23 with no change in quality or contents is off-putting.

I buy one box from my store to support them. A year. Granted 35 dollars for a unit is only half the cost of a 360 or ps3 game. and I get way more lasting time out of my Army than a 60 video game i'll play for two months. You can find a good starter army on ebay for the price of a video game. when units get to be 60$ us. then i'll stop buying... my one unit a year.

I wonder if the surplus of websites offering GW products at 20-25% off list price is reason for the constant increase. I suspect GW will continue to raise pricing till you stop purchasing from those 3rd party discount sites. GW is in a unique position in that it can increase its pricing to the point where people wont buy direct from them because they know they can still generate sales from 3rd party sites

It's only on rare days I'm at the shop to buy a tin of primer and they have something in I've been lusting after for a while that I'll actually buy something direct from GW.90% of my current army has been bought online at a discount, be it ebay or elsewhere. As much as I like the models, I think, for what they're charging, there sould be a higher level of quality. Dire Avenger arse-tabards, anyone?

My concern is with the 'single staff' stores, which while saving them expense could actually kill the company.

Let me explain (and first let me say, I'm amazed no-one has raised this issue).
Also, by this comment I am not implying any current employees could be responsible/have been responsible for this, I am just putting forward a hypothetical situation.

Some years ago (actually, quite a few now) I was an employee of GW. I'm not going to say where and when.
There was one guy who, in my mind, should not have been working with children. Now, I need to get something straight with this - I may have been completely wrong, or misread it, and he might have been a straight-down-the-line guy, but when I met him it sent alarm bells ringing. I would not have been comfortable leaving my kids alone in his company, which I think says everything I need to say.
Now he didn't work for the company for much longer AFAIK, so it didn't ever become an issue other than my own private misgivings. But my point is this: Having a 'single staff member' store creates the potential for a situation where, compounded by the companies pretty minimal staff vetting, someone who should not be has got the opportunity to be alone with kids.

When the staff was manned by 3 employees this situation would be much less likely to occur.
Also, considering the flip-side of the coin, having a single staff member opens the door to malicious accusations being made. Without the presence of another adult, just these accusations alone could be enough to destroy the company. The costs, both financially and to the entire ethos of the company as being an acceptable place to bring children, would be destroyed whether the accusation was true or not.

Like I said, I am frankly amazed this isn't an issue which hasn't been raised elsewhere, and that it's an avenue GW has decided to follow.

For the 15 years I've been around the GW hobby, GW has consistently raised prices. IIRC the standard plastic unit box was $20 when it was first released in the late 90's. Some of these same boxes now have half the figures for close to $25.

Given their ability to increase price, the answer to your question is 'no'. GW is not pricing them selves out of the market. People are very willing to pay these prices and will continue to do so.

They control supply and players have shown a relatively inflexible demand. GW's own marketting research shows that the demographic it sells to will sacrifice meals and other recreation to support their purchasing habit with them. They know we're addicts, and like a drug dealer when they know they have you hooked why would they ever charge anything but more. The fact that "if it were cheaper you'd buy more" is actually at the heart of the problem. Its not about buying more, its about the fact that they don't need to "try" to get your business.

"Are they pricing themselves out of the market?"- Yes. Just like how cocaine that got prohibitvely pricey in the 80's and was replaced by crack as the new drug... eventually a cheaper alternative capable of grabbing our attention equally well will come along. More and more tabletop games have sprouted up in the last decade and eventually it will have the right combination of affordability and fun to usurp GW. It may take a while, but Mantic games stands the best chances with its attention to how GW's screwed up guiding its developement and consumer relations.

Pacific wrote:My concern is with the 'single staff' stores, which while saving them expense could actually kill the company.

The single staff concept is such a bad idea. Leaving aside criminal conduct which could be facilitated by a lone employee, there is a list of other issues.
Simple things like - what to do about vacation and sick time. GW has some very high turn over, how does the single staff model train in new employees? Seems that it would lead to decreased ability to sell product due to a general lack of experience in retail (not to mention hobby skills).

I think I've seen reporting on the retail changes detailing how the system is already not working out for GW.

Kilkrazy wrote:Very hard to say. About twice a year GW have a price increase and there is a storm of protest on sites like Dakka.

Then we all go on buying.

No we don't. Some do, some won't. The question that we can't answer: Will more new people start buying than veteran customers stop buying?

When I first started playing 40k, I spent....a lot of money. I assembled some 3-5,000 points of Tau in a year or less. Fast forward to today: I'm disillusioned with their pricing. My Dark Eldar just had beast units released, and if I were to buy the GW models, and it would cost me $225 to replicate my beast unit with the GW models. Selling 12-15 point models for $15 apiece is ludicrous. Instead, I'll use my box of free hellions to make my beastmasters, my free wargs to make khymerae, etc. I had been looking forward to the release of the Venom model....but not intending to shell out money for them....because I remain antipathic about the cost of a plastic model that I have to assemble and paint myself. I'm *not* in this hobby for the painting bit of it, I'm in it for the gaming. So instead, I've been saving store credit for tournament wins at the various places I frequent so that when they do come out....I can get what I need free (or at the cost of $10 per tournament).

Veteran gamers *don't* all go on buying - GWs prices are ridiculous to me. I'm not a dishonest person, but I can honestly say that I would walk into GW manufacturing plant, walk out with a garbage bag full of models on sprues, and not feel like I'm stealing, rather that I was balancing our relationship a bit.

No
They are the Porche of all gaming minis in a niche market
If you can't afford the product don't play the game

I will gladly pay whatever GW charges because they are so wonderful and I love my hobby more than life itself.

I think that is how the argument goes.

RanTheCid wrote:Given their ability to increase price, the answer to your question is 'no'. GW is not pricing them selves out of the market. People are very willing to pay these prices and will continue to do so.

Their inability to maintain sales volume while raising prices would point to the opposite conclusion.

IIRC their latest financial statement shows the drop in sales, and someone acknowledges they have been raising prices for far too long.

Who knows, maybe april's WD will have a coupon with 'buy 3 boxes, get cheapest one free!' in it like they used to have (seriously, I can provide photographic evidence that they used to print coupons in WD!)

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:No
They are the Porche of all gaming minis in a niche market
If you can't afford the product don't play the game

I will gladly pay whatever GW charges because they are so wonderful and I love my hobby more than life itself.

I think that is how the argument goes.

To a degree thats fine, if people realize that's what they're signing up for. GW just needs to realize they run the risk of loss of market share by catering only to the high end market. Its the reason Harley Davidson lost market share to the much cheaper Asian made motorcycles. GW may end up becoming a niche within a niche.

Didn't we already have a rash of these type threads, recently?

To me, the constant price climbs just encourage me to buy alternative, cheaper miniatures and use GW's rules. I don't attend conventions nor participate in tournaments so it's not an issue.

Although you can't really draw comparisons with motorcycles aka_mythos - although some of the other manufacturers are excellent (and I think in some cases, beating, GW) the fact that Harley Davidson took such a kicking from the Jap machinery (in the same way that the UK industry suffered) was because the latter was produced to a better standard. All well and good supporting your home industry, but its amazing how those perceptions change when you don't have to spend 20 minutes out in the cold in the morning trying to get the thing started or cleaning up a leak

With the Orc and Gobbo update the Orc Boyz regiment has gone from this:

This box set contains 19 multi-part plastic Orc Boyz, which can be assembled with spears or choppas and includes options for a Champion, Standard Bearer and Musician.

to this:

This set contains 10 Orc Boyz and 10 25mm Square Closed Bases

For a core unit, rather than round up to 20 in a box they round all the way down to 10.
Jonny Newbie won't know that when his parent's get sold the box. The new players accept the pricing at their entry point as the norm.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:No
They are the Porche of all gaming minis in a niche market
If you can't afford the product don't play the game

I will gladly pay whatever GW charges because they are so wonderful and I love my hobby more than life itself.

I think that is how the argument goes.

Not sure if serious. I think the 'if you can't afford it, don't play it' arguement is pretty horrific business sense. For a business to grow they need to be able to sell to the highest market share available, not form an elitist club that unless you earn £Xk p/ annum you are permitted access. The wargaming market simply is not big enough to justify that kind of strategy. If people are fully aware that they are buying into the 'Porsche' of wargaming then fine, but how many 12-18 year olds are aware of this? The parents sure aren't, they just look at the bottom line, realise the investment needed, and persuade their child with an alternative.

GW's response to this is to raise prices, which does nothing but compound the original issue, as well as drive off your loyal customer base due to the 'penny-pinching' attitude that most, if not all, hobbyists associate with such practises. It's a lose-lose for GW, and I can't fully visualise this strategy continuing for much longer.

L. Wrex

aka Mythos
That is part of the problem and a reason why I get very cynical about GW.
I didn't realise what I was signing up for, and presume a lot of people don't either.

No one told me about rulebook and armybook updates with the potential obsolescence, not only of books but of units.
There was no warning of the price increases. One expects a limited increase due to inflation. But here in the UK over the last ten years inflation has been very low.

So new players either get caught up with the pricing or they drop out. But as I said new buyers step in accepting the price as the norm.

Someone told me the other day that they stopped playing about 10 years ago, recently saw the current prices and couln't believe how expensive the hobby had become.

ps just to clarify Lycaeus, I was being ironic as it may have become apparent from my subsequent posts.

I live in the state of Wisconsin, we are most likely going to see a new bill go through that will change the benefits for state workers. My wife is a chemistry teacher and is probably going to take a $400.00 pay cut per check.

I have seen the "its a luxury and I'll stop buying when I can't pay my bills" argument, but I never thought that would be me. If the minis were a bit cheaper I wouldn't have to completely stop my mini buying.

I make $11.00 an hour working at the hospital cleaning blood,urine, and feces off of people, which seemed not so bad because I could look forward to buying a box set or two every month. Now I guess I can look forward to just being able to pay my mortgage.

I guess its a good thing I'm such a slow painter, because those half finished armies are going to be getting a lot of attention.

GW serve as an introduction. The stores are great recruitment - for other games. Kids go in , they waste tonnes of money on marnus calgar and his landraider, the slaneshi-like GW revel at this lust and short term profit margin pleasure. Meanwhile father time and cunning lord tzeentch whisper 'our games are better AND cheaper' and then players leave for mantic and warmahordes.

Seriously warmahordes is rising. The only thing GW had going for it was in store gaming but that's for kids, and 4x4 tables make veterans sad. You're better off in your own club and GW don't appeal. Their short term gain plan is failing. I'm glad they see that.

They seriously need to do a 25-50% price drop. It would make the game actually viable to play.

I looked at a nice army - DoC - would cost about £400 to build. I looked at a themed DE army £750 to build (all metal :( )

With games getting BIGGAR! WE NEED MOAR POINTZ! esp with the american tournament scene it is becoming an elitist game. The best wont play - only the richest. And that is sad.

Oh I forgot the...

I don't understand why people complain. GW are a business. They are not a charity and need to make a profit.

standard response, apologies for ommitting this important information.

Pacific wrote:Although you can't really draw comparisons with motorcycles aka_mythos - although some of the other manufacturers are excellent (and I think in some cases, beating, GW) the fact that Harley Davidson took such a kicking from the Jap machinery (in the same way that the UK industry suffered) was because the latter was produced to a better standard. All well and good supporting your home industry, but its amazing how those perceptions change when you don't have to spend 20 minutes out in the cold in the morning trying to get the thing started or cleaning up a leak

Kinda OT, but that was back when H-D was owned by AMC. After the H-D execs bought the company back, in the eighties, those problems went away. I'm on my third Harley and have had no problems with leaks or cold-starting problems. I was riding a month ago in sub-freezing weather with no problems.


OT: I honestly see little difference in the quality of sculpts that GW does, compared with other high-end miniature companies, such as Freebooter, or other high-end mini-gaming companies like Privateer. You can get cheaper minis, but the quality lacks. You can get cheaper game minis, but good luck finding opponents. It's possible that other companies set their prices to the GW standard. It's also possible that GW is charging a reasonable price based on the cost of production (not materials, but paying top-quality sculptors a living wage), and expected demand.

That said, I agree, the prices are high enough that they're driving people away, and a game without players is a dead game. They're competing with cheaper forms of entertainment, and if they're not careful, I could see miniature wargaming going the same was as several other hobbies that were killed off by PCs. We've got a model airplane flying field by my house. 20 years ago, you'd go by on a Saturday and there'd by 20 planes in the air and people hanging around and talking. These days, it's surprising to see more than one or two old men there. Kids aren't picking up model planes anymore, because they've got flying games instead.

If you don't get new blood in, your hobby dies off. And the prices seem mostly to impact the kids. Not a good thing IMO.

Phototoxin wrote:Kids go in , they waste tonnes of money on marnus calgar and his landraider, the slaneshi-like GW revel at this lust and short term profit margin pleasure. Meanwhile father time and cunning lord tzeentch whisper 'our games are better AND cheaper' and then players leave for mantic and warmahordes.

Mind if I sig that?

I can't see them raising the prices anymore and still getting sales. I feel that $20 for a blister pack with a single miniature is past the boiling point. I know GW is a business and exists to make money - it seems a lot of people don't understand this concept. I just know that even customers with battered spouse syndrome like us still have a point where we'll say no.

I purchase only what I have to from GW directly. I can almost always find the same product from another retailer for 30-40% off. There is a huge used market as well.

About the only thing I buy from GW regularly would be paints and after they changed the pots over to the new won't stay open style I'm not buying those anymore either.

Brother SRM wrote:I just know that even customers with battered spouse syndrome like us still have a point where we'll say no.

You might even say there is a point where we won't be able to say yes. Thanks to internet sales pricing, some of us have been able to ignore the fact that it has already come to this.