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i am still new with the game and I don't totally understand the wound allocation rule

in CC, how do you allocate the wounds?

The way I understood is that every unit has to take a wound b4 i can put a second one on a model. But from what I read, the wounds seems to be allocated by equipment instead of just models in units.

every model in the unit must take 1 wound before they can take another.

when rolling saves each group of identical models (same stats and wargear) takes there's together.

When dealing with complex units and lots of shots, there might be several that ignore armour saves. You can allocate wounds as you see fit, so multiple armour ignoring attacks could be stacked on a single group so you lose as few models as possible.

for example

SM squad (5) with a sergeant, special weapon and heavy weapon, is hit by 5 bolter shots and a Krak missile. They cannot take a save against the krak so someone will die. They can stack the missile and another bolter shot on the marine with a heavy weapon. This way you only have to make 4 saves rather then 5. The sergeant must then make one save, he fails he dies. Then the special weapon marine must then make one save, he fails he dies. Finally the other 2 marines must make there saves (one fails you pick which dies).
Had they been hit by two krak missiles both could have been allocated to the heavy weapon marine even though he can only die once.

Tri has it right, although one thing that should be mentioned as well is that with multiple-wound models, if they are armed the same then you have to consolidate the wounds onto one model after they're taken (can't take three wound and put tokens on three different guys at the same time), but if they are armed differently they keep track of their own wounds.

Tri, one thing I've always wondered is, do you distinguish by model name as well?

Hand-to-hand Terminators have a Sergeant and 4 Terminators. Those models all have the exact same stats, and they're all armed identically in this example.

The unit takes two powerweapon wounds and 4 regular wounds. If you put the two powerweapon wounds on the Sergeant and he fails both, do you remove just him, or him and another model?

They are exactly the same in game terms, but technically different due to their name. How would you resolve this?

Similar issue with a model with a bolter, a model with a combi-melta who has already shot, and a model with a combi-melta who has not shot. Are these three different models for wound allocation, or a group of two and one other? If the second one, which two make a group? The ones with the same names, or the ones with the same in-game relevance?

All models must take a wound before you can put a second on another, and this goes for the 3rd wound etc. When rolling the armor saves, models that are equipped the same are rolled together. What this allows you to do is if you have 6 models that are armed differently and you take 10 normal cc wounds and 2 PW wounds you can put the PW on one guy.
Here is an example:

Your nob squad (who is all took wounds) is assaulted by a SM assault squad they hit you 19 times with normal ccw, and 3 times with the PW. The wounds are rolled and there are 10 normal wounds, and 2 PW wounds to save.
(x=armor save, *=PW wound)
Nob1 PK- xx
Nob2 PK, Waagh Banner- xx
Nob3 BC-**
Nob4 BC, BP-xx
Nob5 BC, KS-xx
Nob6 Painboy-xx

This way you will only be loosing 1 guy instead of possibly 2. I hope this helps.

thx guys, this really helps, now I understand how to make my nobz survive even longer XD

somerandomdude wrote:Tri, one thing I've always wondered is, do you distinguish by model name as well?

Yes, although the stats are the same they both have their own statline so they are different groups.

Combi-weapons (and other one shot weapons) are the same equipment even if they've fired, so they don't create complex units (well no more so then including them in the first place).

Tri wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:Tri, one thing I've always wondered is, do you distinguish by model name as well?

Yes, although the stats are the same they both have their own statline so they are different groups.

I view this as a no. Since they are Identical in gaming terms.

even though they have their own statline, this statline is Identical to the rest of his unit.

P.25 under complex units:

"... Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear."

so if a model in a unit has the same statline, rules weapons and wargear you can not allocate wounds as if the model were different.

DeathReaper wrote:
"... Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics ...

but they don't have the same profile ... they have identical profiles but they each have their own.

Tri wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
"... Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics ...

but they don't have the same profile ... they have identical profiles but they each have their own.

They each have their own profile yes, but are the profile of characteristics the same? Yes they are, so there can be no wound allocation.

Are these two profile of characteristics the same?

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+ Terminator

4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+ Terminator Sergeant

Look at the profiles of characteristics Are they Identical? I.E. is the profile for the Terminator the same as for the Terminator Sergeant?

Yes they are.

There are 9 characteristics for non vehicle models. These 9 are listed on P.6

It does not matter what name is given to the model. they have the same profile of characteristics as long as these 9 characteristics are identical.

but they don't share the same profile of characteristics you've clearly listed both of them ^_^

Tri wrote:but they don't share the same profile of characteristics you've clearly listed both of them ^_^

It does not matter if they share a profile.

It only matters if the Profiles are the same/Identical.

in my above case the profiles are the same/Identical.

DeathReaper wrote:

Tri wrote:but they don't share the same profile of characteristics you've clearly listed both of them ^_^

It does not matter if they share a profile.

It only matters if the Profiles are the same/Identical.

in my above case the profiles are the same/Identical.

what is this identical? I see only same and there are two so they cannot be the same profile.

"... Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics ..."

Same = Identical

DeathReaper wrote:"... Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics ..."

Same = Identical

4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+ Terminator
4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+ Terminator Sergeant
Two different profile of characteristics so they can't be the same.
Or you might as well 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+ Terminator/Terminator Sergeant

in this case the seargeant is identical to the troopers as everything but the name of the model is the same. the name of the model is not one of the qulifications listed to distinguish.

Tri wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:"... Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics ..."

Same = Identical

4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+ Terminator
4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+ Terminator Sergeant
Two different profile of characteristics so they can't be the same.
Or you might as well 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 2+ Terminator/Terminator Sergeant

Except that they are the same

they are identical.

Whats the Weapon Skill on the Terminator Sergeant? 4
Whats the Weapon Skill on the Terminator? 4
How is 4 not the same as 4?

The same goes for BS, S, T, W, I, A, Ld, and Sv values, they are all the same.

Just because they are listed in two different places does not mean they are not the same/Identical in gaming terms.

You are using same == equivalent
He is using "same" as in "actually identical"
If you have to of "x" they cannot be the same.

I see what you mean Nos.

They are not the same profile but the profiles are the same.

Stupid english.

Still no wound allocation, since the WS and all other stats and wargear are Indentical to each other.

"Identical in game terms" would mean "identical in every way that the game can have influence."

The question is whether or not the game cares about the names of models within groups, and more specifically whether the game cares about the difference between "Terminator Sergeant" and "Terminator". I don't believe it does, but I can see where Tri is coming from (which is why I asked the question).

Also, Tri, I disagree with you about the combi weapons, as a used combi-melta and an unused combi-melta are different in game terms. The question then is whether a used combi-melta is different from a regular bolter. I appreciate the discussion though, as usually I can't get a response from someone, and while I know how I feel about it, I can see how others might rule and wanted more input.

somerandomdude wrote:"Identical in game terms" would mean "identical in every way that the game can have influence."

The question is whether or not the game cares about the names of models within groups, and more specifically whether the game cares about the difference between "Terminator Sergeant" and "Terminator". I don't believe it does, but I can see where Tri is coming from (which is why I asked the question).

Also, Tri, I disagree with you about the combi weapons, as a used combi-melta and an unused combi-melta are different in game terms. The question then is whether a used combi-melta is different from a regular bolter. I appreciate the discussion though, as usually I can't get a response from someone, and while I know how I feel about it, I can see how others might rule and wanted more input.

Used Combi-weapon is a combi-weapon a bolter is a bolter. No over lap.

I'll admit I'm trolling slightly on the profiles but it still remains why else are they given sergeants if sergeants are in no way different.

Tri wrote:Snip.
I'll admit I'm trolling slightly on the profiles but it still remains why else are they given sergeants if sergeants are in no way different.

A lot of things they write do not make sense to me.

I have no idea why they did not lump them into one, maybe for wargear upgrades like the sergeant can take X weapon or whatever?

somerandomdude wrote:
Also, Tri, I disagree with you about the combi weapons, as a used combi-melta and an unused combi-melta are different in game terms. The question then is whether a used combi-melta is different from a regular bolter. I appreciate the discussion though, as usually I can't get a response from someone, and while I know how I feel about it, I can see how others might rule and wanted more input.

I think a used combi-melta is different from a regular bolter.

This is because you have a model armed with a combi-melta even though he shot the melta part of it, he still holds a combi-melta.

Though a used combi-melta is the same as someone with an unused combi-melta.

DeathReaper wrote:Though a used combi-melta is the same as someone with an unused combi-melta.

How?

I'm sorry for not adding much to the discussion with this post, but can someone please explain to me how those two weapons don't "stand out in game terms?"

Because they are both armed with a combi-melta, it does not matter that one has expended its ammo, you bought 2 models each with a combi-melta so they are one group.


They have the same weapons, a used combi-melta is still a combi-melta.

DeathReaper wrote:They have the same weapons, a used combi-melta is still a combi-melta.

But, those are not the same in game terms. The combi-profile has changed (either becoming non-existent or saying "0 shots"). If it doesn't change, then you would always have "1 shot" available. Something hidden inside the game must occur in order for you to suddenly not be able to shoot the alternate ammo again, which means that those are no longer the same weapons.

If they were the same weapons, they would have the same options available to them, and be able to do the same things. Once one of them shoots their alternate ammo, they can no longer do the same things.

DeathReaper wrote:A lot of things they write do not make sense to me.

I have no idea why they did not lump them into one, maybe for war gear upgrades like the sergeant can take X weapon or whatever?

well may be its to be complete on assault terminators. As it stands there is a good argument that they can. Yay for GW and their roll a D6.

somerandomdude wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They have the same weapons, a used combi-melta is still a combi-melta.

But, those are not the same in game terms. The combi-profile has changed (either becoming non-existent or saying "0 shots"). If it doesn't change, then you would always have "1 shot" available. Something hidden inside the game must occur in order for you to suddenly not be able to shoot the alternate ammo again, which means that those are no longer the same weapons.

If they were the same weapons, they would have the same options available to them, and be able to do the same things. Once one of them shoots their alternate ammo, they can no longer do the same things.

its still a combi weapon though ... same with wounds; model may lose a wound but it still has the same profile.

somerandomdude wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They have the same weapons, a used combi-melta is still a combi-melta.

But, those are not the same in game terms. The combi-profile has changed (either becoming non-existent or saying "0 shots"). If it doesn't change, then you would always have "1 shot" available. Something hidden inside the game must occur in order for you to suddenly not be able to shoot the alternate ammo again, which means that those are no longer the same weapons.

If they were the same weapons, they would have the same options available to them, and be able to do the same things. Once one of them shoots their alternate ammo, they can no longer do the same things.

A combi-melta with 0 shots in the melta is still a combi-melta.

remember the requirement is:

"... Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear." P.25

so if it has the same wargear, in this case a combi-melta, then it fits the requirement.

DeathReaper wrote:Whats the Weapon Skill on the Terminator Sergeant? 4
Whats the Weapon Skill on the Terminator? 4
How is 4 not the same as 4?

How is 'Terminator Sergeant' the same as 'Terminator'...?

They're only identical if you don't count the name as a part of the profile line. Which I see no reason to do.

insaniak wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Whats the Weapon Skill on the Terminator Sergeant? 4
Whats the Weapon Skill on the Terminator? 4
How is 4 not the same as 4?

How is 'Terminator Sergeant' the same as 'Terminator'...?

They're only identical if you don't count the name as a part of the profile line. Which I see no reason to do.

The profile of characteristics has to be the same.

There are 9 characteristics for non vehicle models. These 9 are listed on P.6

Nowhere does it mention the name of the unit on P.6, so we can not include that as a part of the profile of characteristics.

It's not one of the characteristics. It's still a part of the profile.

insaniak wrote:It's not one of the characteristics. It's still a part of the profile.

Sorry, I forgot the important quote:

"... Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear." P.25

By this they only have to have the same profile of characteristics, anything else does not count as far as the rules are concerned.