Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This came up in the FFG forums about how many SoBs there are in the Imperium. People there cite a 2nd edition number of 30k SoBs total.

Someone else tossed out a number of 10,000 storm troopers which is just laughable.

So I thought I'd run my list by Dakka and see what people think.

PDF - 10s of billions of men (uncounted)

Local police forces - 10s of billions of men (uncounted)

IG - billions of men (more or less counted)

Militia - Crusading civilians potentially billions depending on what state the Imperium is in (completely unknown)

Imperial Navy - A billion to 100s of millions of men

Arbites - Millions? (probably the best counted of all the forces)

Sisters of Battle - millions (secretive)

Inquisition minions - millions? (very secretive)

Marines - 1 million (secretive, potentially much higher or lower)

Grey knights/Death watch/Custodes - Thousands

Assassins - Hundreds

Sounds reasonable

Try Countless Trillions for PDF, Guard, Imperial Navy and Arbites.

the average Imperial Grand Cruiser or Battleship has about a million crew so multiply that by the several million such ships and the billions of smaller vessels.

Space marines are at around 1 million.

SoB are probably in the low billions/high millions.

there isn't a solid figure on the GK numbers. original fluff puts them at about 3k but the new codex puts them at 1k plus the specilists(Purifiers, Palidins, Terminators...) so somewhere between 1500 and 3k seems right.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of Assassins, depending on the type. there will probably be more Vindicares then Eversors.

The population is large enough to support much larger forces of SM, GK and SoB than the fluff allows for, however these are limited by law.

I calculate the size of the specialist troop units could be about 1,000 to 1,000,000 greater than they are.

I'm going to go ahead and argue the "millions" for SoB.

There are only 6 Orders Militant.

According to Dark Heresy, the Order of the Bloody Rose only operate a single Perceptory(1000 sisters).

After Armageddon, the Order of Our Martyred Lady can barely field 3 Companies.

Argent Shroud has at least 1 Perceptory(they fielded 7 Companies during Armageddon 3).

Can't find numbers on the other 3, but even if they had 2 Preceptories each, that doesn't add up to Millions.

By all accounts, there are fewer Sisters than there are Marines in the Galaxy.

of course, there are orders that arn't millitant, but still maintain arms.


Most of the Orders are non-combatent, operate hospitals, and orphanages.


that said, i would say there are more SoB then SMs. only 6 Orders Militant seems low.

Grey Templar wrote:of course, there are orders that arn't millitant, but still maintain arms.


Most of the Orders are non-combatent, operate hospitals, and orphanages.


that said, i would say there are more SoB then SMs. only 6 Orders Militant seems low.

The Convent Sanctorum

Orders Militant

* Order of the Bloody Rose
* Order of Our Martyred Lady
* Order of the Valorous Heart

Orders Hospitaller

* Order of the Eternal Candle
* Order of Serenity

Orders Famulous

* Order of the Key
* Order of the Gate

Orders Dialogous

* Order of the Holy Word
* Order of the Quill

Convent Prioris

Orders Militant

* Order of the Sacred Rose
* Order of the Ebon Chalice
* Order of the Argent Shroud

Orders Dialogous

* Order of the Sacred Oath
* Order of the Lexicon

Orders Famulous

* Order of the Holy Seal
* Order of the Sacred Coin

Orders Hospitaller

* Order of the Cleansing Water

* Order of the Torch


And 2 known Minor Orders, Order of the Eternal Gate and Order of the White Rose.

Platuan4th wrote:I'm going to go ahead and argue the "millions" for SoB.

There are only 6 Orders Militant.

According to Dark Heresy, the Order of the Bloody Rose only operate a single Perceptory(1000 sisters).

After Armageddon, the Order of Our Martyred Lady can barely field 3 Companies.

Argent Shroud has at least 1 Perceptory(they fielded 7 Companies during Armageddon 3).

Can't find numbers on the other 3, but even if they had 2 Preceptories each, that doesn't add up to Millions.

By all accounts, there are fewer Sisters than there are Marines in the Galaxy.

The problem is that's only the big 6 orders, we don't know how many minor ones there are nor how big they can be. The long tail could stretch into the millions.

Or not.

The difference between an SoB and a crusader is training and power armor, and power armor has got to be in short supply. i could live with SoBs being in the 10s of thousands with their great unwashed hoards of crusaders being in the billions.

I left out tech guard, I'd put them in billion-100s of millions rank. I figure Mars has maybe 1% of the Imperium? Of course they can always draft servitors and other menials to up those numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:of course, there are orders that arn't millitant, but still maintain arms.


Most of the Orders are non-combatent, operate hospitals, and orphanages.


that said, i would say there are more SoB then SMs. only 6 Orders Militant seems low.

The orders probably have billions of women doing all sorts of things but I wouldn't count them as SoBs unless they have power armor or bolters, otherwise they're militia. there's a difference between the sister who trains her whole life to fight and has the 2nd or 3rd best armor in the imperium and the math teacher they hand a lasgun to when the Orks come knocking.

The Ecclesiarchy can afford PA. it isn't impossable to make, just expensive. and the Church has the money.

Grey Templar wrote:The Ecclesiarchy can afford PA. it isn't impossable to make, just expensive. and the Church has the money.

If you'll notice, though, both Hospitalis and Dialogous HAVE rules and models and that neither use Power Armour and bolters.

Hospitalis:


Dialogous(the model with the Speaker):


As for Famulous, they maintain and organize the households of Imperial Governors and Nobles.

Yes, but those arn't combat units per say.

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, but those arn't combat units per say.

Exactly, that falls to the 6 Orders Militant.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were alot more Ordos Militant then 6.

many small Ordos running around with only a couple of hundred sisters each.

Grey Templar wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if there were alot more Ordos Militant then 6.

many small Ordos running around with only a couple of hundred sisters each.

I could see them adding more in the future, but there's really no need, as unlike Marines, Sisters aren't bound to a planet/fleet/Fortress Monastery, the orders are spread out across the galaxy in a number of Convents(which number ~200 Sisters each).

That's the first time I've seen a number for the Sisters be cited and I think it's quite reasonable.

There's probably a billion or more Arbites. Every Imperial planet has a stronghold and each must have thousands.

Probably far more PDF's then your figure. There are a million worlds in the Imperium, and most worlds have some kind of PDF in some form or another. However their collective size isn't important at all,. as they don't cooperate with one another and are only stationed on their own worlds. What matters regarding PDF's is how big an individual worlds force is.

Imperial Guard probably goes into the trillions, just given he size of the Imperium. Same with the Imperial Navy if you think about how many sector fleets there are, how many crewmen these massive ships require, things like orbital stations and bases, then Fighter/Aircraft squadrons.

Sisters of Battle should be much higher, I'd say at least 5-10 million given their prevalence and presentation in fluff. It's one of those area GW is being dumb on.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's the first time I've seen a number for the Sisters be cited and I think it's quite reasonable.

There's probably a billion or more Arbites. Every Imperial planet has a stronghold and each must have thousands.

Someone brought that up but I disagree, I think a few 100 for a major world is about right. A small colony might just have 1.

They're more like the FBI than the local cops (which is why I broke out local police). They investigate crimes of interest to the imperium, your typical food riot, murder, terrorist group doesn't interest them.

I see it as local cops report to the local leader (mayor, lord, whatever). PDF reports to the planetary governor. But the Arbites report directly to Terra, they're the only ones who can enforce the law against the governor or other high ups.

The fluff has been uneven on this, I've seen stories where arbites are walking the beat, chasing down gangs etc. I figure it's a case of some planets using the term for their local police and that those guys were not real Arbites with the force of Imperial law behind them.

As well, Arbites have token presence on worlds that have their own police forces(maybe 1-5 Arbites for "official" Imperial business).

I think people are also confusing the Sisters as a Military Force. They're the official Militant Force of the Church and are assigned by them and requested from them, but they're not a military in the sense that the IG or the Marines are. They're more like the Knight Templar's original purpose: to protect pilgrims and holy sites. If they are active in a war zone other than that, it's because the Church has a reason for them to be there fighting(such as fighting in a Crusade on the part of the church and leading much larger forces of zealots and militia). Like the Arbites, they're not used by fluff as a fighting force you happen to see fighting normal fights.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's the first time I've seen a number for the Sisters be cited and I think it's quite reasonable.

There's probably a billion or more Arbites. Every Imperial planet has a stronghold and each must have thousands.

Someone brought that up but I disagree, I think a few 100 for a major world is about right. A small colony might just have 1.

They're more like the FBI than the local cops (which is why I broke out local police). They investigate crimes of interest to the imperium, your typical food riot, murder, terrorist group doesn't interest them.

I could see an agri-world having like 5-10 guys. Like one of those small town sheriff departments but a Hive world like Armaggedon must need 10,000-100,000 or more. The have multiple offices all over the place as individual hives have a bigger population than modern day earth.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

I could see an agri-world having like 5-10 guys. Like one of those small town sheriff departments but a Hive world like Armaggedon must need 10,000-100,000 or more. The have multiple offices all over the place as individual hives have a bigger population than modern day earth.

That's a job for the Enforcers and other local forces(see Necromunda as an example), Arbites only deal with the Upper Spire.

Platuan4th wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

I could see an agri-world having like 5-10 guys. Like one of those small town sheriff departments but a Hive world like Armaggedon must need 10,000-100,000 or more. The have multiple offices all over the place as individual hives have a bigger population than modern day earth.

That's a job for the Enforcers and other local forces(see Necromunda as an example), Arbites only deal with the Upper Spire.

Aren't Enforcers merely a type of Arbites?

There were around 4,000 surviving "Daughters of the Emperor" who survived the seige of the Ecclesiarchs' palace.

When Thor founded the initial orders - around 288M36 their ranks have swollen to over 10,000 battle sisters.

Each of the main 6 Orders Militant have spawned "dozens" of "far smaller" leser Orders Militant.

Aside from these orders there are the non militant orders ; the big 3 -- Famulous,Dialogus and Hospitaliers -- these are, aparently, as large as the Militant Orders, but there are " countless smaller orders, some as small as 12 or so sisters".

Some examples of these listed include

" The Order Madriga provide the all-female choirs that fill the cathedrals with sublime heavenly song..."

"The Order Planxilium form thousand strong processions ..."

No real mention of combat numbers, but it is noted that a deployment of a Palantine and 50 battle sisters is seen as significant on Iocanthos, whilst the largest concentration of the Order Dialogus on Solomon houses a full perceptory of Sisters Dialogus and is guarded by 1000 battle sisters.

.... and a Squadron of Imperial Navy Ships.

From FFG's (superb) Blood of Martrys.

KK You forgot to The Administratum! 1 Quadrillion! More than all the rest put together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:

There were around 4,000 surviving "Daughters of the Emperor" who survived the seige of the Ecclesiarchs' palace.

When Thor founded the initial orders - around 288M36 their ranks have swollen to over 10,000 battle sisters.

Each of the main 6 Orders Militant have spawned "dozens" of "far smaller" leser Orders Militant.

Aside from these orders there are the non militant orders ; the big 3 -- Famulous,Dialogus and Hospitaliers -- these are, aparently, as large as the Militant Orders, but there are " countless smaller orders, some as small as 12 or so sisters".

Some examples of these listed include

" The Order Madriga provide the all-female choirs that fill the cathedrals with sublime heavenly song..."

"The Order Planxilium form thousand strong processions ..."

No real mention of combat numbers, but it is noted that a deployment of a Palantine and 50 battle sisters is seen as significant on Iocanthos, whilst the largest concentration of the Order Dialogus on Solomon houses a full perceptory of Sisters Dialogus and is guarded by 1000 battle sisters.

.... and a Squadron of Imperial Navy Ships.

From FFG's (superb) Blood of Martrys.

That 30,000 number for M41 seems to stand up.

Some calculations regarding the Imperial navy, take them with a huge bucket of salt.
We know that there are roughly 1million worlds. Each sector seems to have 100(Sabbat sector) - 200(Calixis sector) worlds which means that the Imperium has between 10.000 and 5000 sectors.
Each sector is on average defended by 50-70 imperial navy ships.
This in turn means that the Imperial Navy has between 250000/350000 and 500000/700000 warships of all relevant sizes ( escorts to battleships ).

Now we have a problem, we do not know the composition of each sectorfleet. I suppose that the majority of each sectorfleet is made up of escorts, let's say roughly 2/3rds while the remaining third
is mainly composed of cruisers and perhaps a small handful of battleships. FFG's Rogue Trader book can, if one accepts them as canon (which i will do here ), give us some valuable numbers regarding crewsize
As representative of the escort sized vessels i chose to take the Sword class frigate and for the capital ships i took the Lunar class cruiser. Both are extremely common. I also chose to disregard
battleships, batlecruisers and grand cruisers, first because they are rare compared to normal cruisers and second because i have no numbers for them. Orbital platforms and spacestations and similar things are also not included.

So, at the minimum the Imperial Navy has 166660 times 26000 + 83330 times 95000 = 433.310.000 + 7.916.350.000 = 12.249.510.000
The maximum size ( with my stated limitations ) would be roughly 34 billions.

KingDeath wrote:Some calculations regarding the Imperial navy, take them with a huge bucket of salt.
We know that there are roughly 1million worlds. Each sector seems to have 100(Sabbat sector) - 200(Calixis sector) worlds which means that the Imperium has between 10.000 and 5000 sectors.
Each sector is on average defended by 50-70 imperial navy ships.
This in turn means that the Imperial Navy has between 250000/350000 and 500000/700000 warships of all relevant sizes ( escorts to battleships ).

Now we have a problem, we do not know the composition of each sectorfleet. I suppose that the majority of each sectorfleet is made up of escorts, let's say roughly 2/3rds while the remaining third
is mainly composed of cruisers and perhaps a small handful of battleships. FFG's Rogue Trader book can, if one accepts them as canon (which i will do here ), give us some valuable numbers regarding crewsize
As representative of the escort sized vessels i chose to take the Sword class frigate and for the capital ships i took the Lunar class cruiser. Both are extremely common. I also chose to disregard
battleships, batlecruisers and grand cruisers, first because they are rare compared to normal cruisers and second because i have no numbers for them. Orbital platforms and spacestations and similar things are also not included.

So, at the minimum the Imperial Navy has 166660 times 26000 + 83330 times 95000 = 433.310.000 + 7.916.350.000 = 12.249.510.000
The maximum size ( with my stated limitations ) would be roughly 34 billions.

The Sabbat Worlds is 200 worlds but that doesn't affect your calculations. I think that's some good Guesstimating.

Does anyone remember the frequency of psychic blanks being born?

Owain wrote:Does anyone remember the frequency of psychic blanks being born?

Off hand, I seem to recall Psykers being 1:1,000,000 and blanks being 1:1,000,000,000.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Aren't Enforcers merely a type of Arbites?

Other way around, if anything. It's a little like how Federal Marshalls are a police organization but your city's police department is not a type of Federal Marshall. Arbites are the enforcers of Imperial law empowered by the Adeptus Terra. Enforcement of local law is beneath the Arbites, the job of the governor's law enforcement officers. Local enforcers are often styled after Arbites but are not members of the Adeptus Arbites or any other Imperium-wide organization and don't have the authority of the Arbites.

I don't really think in total numbers but the size of Units seem wrong. I always think the numbers they talk about in the BL always sound wrong.

Imperial guard Regiments at 5000? Are you kidding? 5000 is a Modern Division. IG Regiments would not last long in Combat given their casualty rates, one major engagement and they would be combat ineffective.

I always thought of Guard Regiments of 20,000 minimum (about Corps or Army Group size) I actually figure Regiments would be much bigger 200,000 etc.

edit: IIRC aren't there 666 Grey Knights at anyone time?

mwnciboo wrote:I always thought of Guard Regiments of 20,000 minimum (about Corps or Army Group size) I actually figure Regiments would be much bigger 200,000 etc.

edit: IIRC aren't there 666 Grey Knights at anyone time?

I think about 20000-30000 would be about right, not 200000, which is just too many.
However there are more than 666 Grey Knights present at any one point. About 1500-3000 (latest and previous fluff respectively). 666 is just thier chapter number.