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I have seen several people state that the Dreadknight fitted with a teleporter and handed the Scouts USR can shunt 30" in the Scout move, but looking at the rule book it states Scouts = any scouts may make a "normal" move. Wouldn't a normal move follow the established 6" move, combat speed, Cruising speed, flat out/turbo boost - personal teleporters are NOT "Normal" forms of movement and can only be performed once per game.

Watcha think?

It is normal for a model equipped with a personal teleporter to be able to move 30" once per game. What's the problem?

I think that this is the 3rd thread in as many days which repeates an invalid argument

You can shunt in the scout move perfectly fine. In the same way that a TB is NORMAL for a bike, a Shunt is NORMAL for a teleporter equipped model.

/thread, mods please lock / point to the other threads...

Da-Rock wrote:I have seen several people state that the Dreadknight fitted with a teleporter and handed the Scouts USR can shunt 30" in the Scout move, but looking at the rule book it states Scouts = any scouts may make a "normal" move. Wouldn't a normal move follow the established 6" move, combat speed, Cruising speed, flat out/turbo boost - personal teleporters are NOT "Normal" forms of movement and can only be performed once per game.

Watcha think?

From the GW FAQ - http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620222a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_2.pdf

Q: Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout move? (p76)
A: Yes they now can, but remember that they have to
remain more than 12” away from the enemy as they move

Essentially this same logic would apply to the DreadKnight's Teleporter. If they could use the Move (IE - shunt 30in) in a standard movement phase, it is allowed. At least that's how it sounds to me.

yeah in total agreement with Nos on this one. Turboboost is a USR not a "normal move" but its allowed because you can do it whenever you can normally move. Just like the shunt. Not just the dreadknight but interceptors can do this too.

I think thats why they moved Interceptors to FA rather than being an upgrade for troops otherwise you could take 2 GMs and assault with your entire army turn 1...

Blah blah blah,

Shunt is done instead of moving. Because it is done instead of moving, it clearly is not a normal move for a model equipped with a persoanl teleporter. It is an ability given to a model equipped with a personal teleporter that they can do instead of moving.

As such, until a FAQ is relased that allows it to be done during the Scout move, it is not allowed. See BA FAQ that allows Baals to perform a non-movement action during the Scout move, aka smoke launchers.

Blah blah blah, youre missing the part about "make a move" that is in the codex. Nice try at ignoring the rules though

It is a move they can normally perform once per game. Guess that means they can do it in the scout moves part of the game then.

And you insist on ignoring that it specifically is done INSTEAD of moving.

If something is done instead of moving, that means it isn't moving. If a unit runs instead of shooting, it isn't shooting. Scout moves allow a normal move to be made. How are you claiming to be able to do something that is clearly done instead of moving?

Shunt is not a normal move or even a move as defined in the World of Warhammer 40k. It is an ability granted by personal teleporters that is done instead of moving.

Answer this Nos, if I had a unit of Grey Hunters run instead of shooting, would you say that they shot?

Running instead of shooting is an action that is allowed in lieu of shooting. Shunting is exactly the same thing. Yes the model has physically been moved 30", but it did not move per Warhammer 40k rules, instead it shunted 30".

And you're ignoring that they FaQ'd smoke launchers to be usable which (unlike shunting) certainly isn't moving. Can I normally make this move in the movement phase? If I can then i'm allowed to do it as a scout move.

Turbo Boost is not a normal move or even a move as defined in the World of Warhammer 40k. It is an ability granted by a bike or jet bike that is done instead of moving.

Running instead of shooting is an action that is allowed in lieu of shooting. turbo boosting is exactly the same thing. Yes the model has physically been moved 24", but it did not move per Warhammer 40k rules, instead it turbo boosted 24".

Silly enough?
The rule says you make a normal move that "is done exactly as in their Movement phase"(BRB pg. 76), so you can do anything you could do instead of your regular move in your movement phase, including turbo boost, jump movement, shunt, going flat out, funny psychic teleporting powers or declaring a tank shock. Good luck actually tankshocking anything while having to stay 12" away from it though.

FlingitNow wrote:And you're ignoring that they FaQ'd smoke launchers to be usable which (unlike shunting) certainly isn't moving. Can I normally make this move in the movement phase? If I can then i'm allowed to do it as a scout move.

I am not ignoring the FAQ. In fact it is one of the cornerstones of my argument!

A FAQ was required to allow the non-moving action of smoke launchers, to be used during the Scout move. Do you have a FAQ that allows the non-moving action of shunting to be used during the Scout move? Until you do, like previously with smoke launchers, you cannot.

Jidmah wrote:Turbo Boost is not a normal move or even a move as defined in the World of Warhammer 40k. It is an ability granted by a bike or jet bike that is done instead of moving.

Running instead of shooting is an action that is allowed in lieu of shooting. turbo boosting is exactly the same thing. Yes the model has physically been moved 24", but it did not move per Warhammer 40k rules, instead it turbo boosted 24".

Silly enough?
The rule says you make a normal move that "is done exactly as in their Movement phase"(BRB pg. 76), so you can do anything you could do instead of your regular move in your movement phase, including turbo boost, jump movement, shunt, going flat out, funny psychic teleporting powers or declaring a tank shock. Good luck actually tankshocking anything while having to stay 12" away from it though.

You need to reread the Turbo-boosters rule on page 76 before you come into the argument.

When using their turbo-boosters they may move up to 24" in the Movement phase:

Notice that it isn't instead of moving the bikes may turbo-boost. In fact the entire turbo-boost entry does not mention instead. If we look at the movement entry for bikes we see that turbo-boosters special rule is inclusive to ther movement, not exclusive to ther movemnt

Bikes also have the "turbo-boosters" special rule (see page 76).

A FAQ was required to allow the non-moving action of smoke launchers, to be used during the Scout move.

? The FaQ clarified that you could do it all along. You do realise that is what FaQs do don't you? They clarify what the rules already are. The FaQ don't allow or deny anything ever they clarify what was allowed/denied all along. This clarification illustrates how the rules work. That you may do anything that you may normally do in the movement phase as your scout move.

Notice that it isn't instead of moving the bikes may turbo-boost.

And shunting isn't instead of moving it is instead of moving normally. It's still movement just not the normal 12" move of JI...

What does "instead" have to do with anything?

So, looked at page 76 again. Oh look, the chapter name is "Universal Special Rules"! You are claiming you may not shunt during scout movement because it is not a normal move. I just used your own words to show that turbo boosting is a special move, which miraculously is allowed while scouting.

So guess what? Turbo boosting is not a normal move. Jump infantry moving 12" is not a normal move. Using Smoke launchers is not a normal move. Shunt is not a normal move.
There is no rule preventing you from replacing a normal move with a special one. Actually there is no differentiation in any WH40k rules between normal and special moves whatsoever. Which means it doesn't exist, you simply made it up because you're afraid of dread knights.

FlingitNow wrote:

A FAQ was required to allow the non-moving action of smoke launchers, to be used during the Scout move.

? The FaQ clarified that you could do it all along. You do realise that is what FaQs do don't you? They clarify what the rules already are. The FaQ don't allow or deny anything ever they clarify what was allowed/denied all along. This clarification illustrates how the rules work. That you may do anything that you may normally do in the movement phase as your scout move.

Notice that it isn't instead of moving the bikes may turbo-boost.

And shunting isn't instead of moving it is instead of moving normally. It's still movement just not the normal 12" move of JI...

Too bad what you think FAQ do and what GW thinks they do and also does with their FAQ are two different things.

The FAQ allowing smoke launchers to be used during the Scout move did one thing: Allowed smoke launchers to be used during the Sount move. You cannot read anything more into it then just that because then you are drifting from RAW to RAI.

Also the rule is instead of moving, not instead of moving normally. That means that shunting is an entirely different thing then moving. Unless there is a FAQ that allows this entirely different thing then moving, called shunting to be done during the Scout move like smoke launchers, then you cannot shunt.

Jidmah wrote:What does "instead" have to do with anything?

So, looked at page 76 again. Oh look, the chapter name is "Universal Special Rules"! You are claiming you may not shunt during scout movement because it is not a normal move. I just used your own words to show that turbo boosting is a special move, which miraculously is allowed while scouting.

So guess what? Turbo boosting is not a normal move. Jump infantry moving 12" is not a normal move. Using Smoke launchers is not a normal move. Shunt is not a normal move.
There is no rule preventing you from replacing a normal move with a special one. Actually there is no differentiation in any WH40k rules between normal and special moves whatsoever. Which means it doesn't exist, you simply made it up because you're afraid of dread knights.

The use of instead means that it isnt moving.

For bikes turbo-boosting is part of their normal movement. It is listed under bikes movement rules page 53. Same applies to Jump Infantry, page 52. Smoke launchers were FAQ'd to be allowed, check GW website.

Care to show me Shunt under the movement rules for Jump Infantry on page 52? Have a FAQ for Shunting during the Scout move? It wont be there because it is not moving, it is done INSTEAD of moving.

GK units with a personal teleporter are Jump Infantry, meaning they can choose to either move 12" or like infantry, 6". Once per game they can perform an ability INSTEAD of moving 12" like Jump Infantry or 6" like infantry. This ability is called a Shunt.

Scout move would let GK either move 12" like Jump Infantry or 6" like infantry.

Do the same exercise with bikes and turbo-boosting and you see how it is inherently different.

Too bad what you think FAQ do and what GW thinks they do and also does with their FAQ are two different things.

The FAQ allowing smoke launchers to be used during the Scout move did one thing: Allowed smoke launchers to be used during the Sount move. You cannot read anything more into it then just that because then you are drifting from RAW to RAI.

GW don't do anythig but clarify how the rules work do with their FaQs. The FaQ stating that you can use smoke launchers when scouting didn't allow anything the FaQs aren't rules they are explainations of rules and tell you how rules work. They can not by definition allow anything or change anything.

If you want simple then many explained it all early when they said this, "GW FAQ'd Turbo Boost to allow during Scouts moves". End of discussion, but maybe not how you think -

Turbo Boost was NOT allowed in Scouts until it was FAQ'd = Teleport is NOT allowed until GW FAQs it - have fun!

Brother Ramses wrote:
Too bad what you think FAQ do and what GW thinks they do and also does with their FAQ are two different things.

The FAQ allowing smoke launchers to be used during the Scout move did one thing: Allowed smoke launchers to be used during the Sount move. You cannot read anything more into it then just that because then you are drifting from RAW to RAI.

Also the rule is instead of moving, not instead of moving normally. That means that shunting is an entirely different thing then moving. Unless there is a FAQ that allows this entirely different thing then moving, called shunting to be done during the Scout move like smoke launchers, then you cannot shunt.

"The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material. They deal with more of a grey area, where often there is no right and wrong answer - in a way, they are our own 'Studio House Rules'. They are, of course, useful when you play a pick-up game against someone you don't know, or at tournaments" - GW

FAQs don't "allow" or "disallow" anything. They set a standard for gaming that GW feels best suits the game to fix "grey areas" not completely change rules.
They FAQ'd something that other people see as suiting other, newly presented, situations. The FAQ can't read the future and predict problems (or YMDC wouldn't exist) so it's very reasonable that a person would apply the logic used in an FAQ rule to answer another very similar situation.

Really? This argument again.

If you can Turbo-Boost and Smoke, likely you can Shunt. I would clear it with a TO before any tournaments, but otherwise, why argue anymore? This won't be 100% resolved until we see a FAQ.

Facepalm ^_^ why not be able to shunt. Ive yet to read definitive proof, smoke launchers push it to a firm yes not a no ... they need faqs for the people that have hissy fits ... simple as that ... so for now hold ur lil tantrums and deal with it ... shunt, legal nuff said

If people are really going to have that much trouble with the GK doing this, then you gaming ability is in much worse shape than worrying about what can be done during a Scout move.

Galador wrote:If people are really going to have that much trouble with the GK doing this, then you gaming ability is in much worse shape than worrying about what can be done during a Scout move.

Have you ever played a none cheese army? Play Tau and then talk to me about a Dreadknight standing 12" away from my lines on turn 1. Its simple for me - No..........it doesn't say you can so like every other rule we have to wait for this one will too.

Da-Rock wrote:

Galador wrote:If people are really going to have that much trouble with the GK doing this, then you gaming ability is in much worse shape than worrying about what can be done during a Scout move.

Have you ever played a none cheese army? Play Tau and then talk to me about a Dreadknight standing 12" away from my lines on turn 1. Its simple for me - No..........it doesn't say you can so like every other rule we have to wait for this one will too.

That is just what Kroot are for, good sir. "Bubblewrap" is a useful strategy. Let him assault the Kroot all day, when they die (and they will!), you get plenty of chances to blow those NDKs apart. Don't try to look at the rule as broken or a problem, be a good player and adapt to the ever-changing game you play.

Da-Rock wrote:

Galador wrote:If people are really going to have that much trouble with the GK doing this, then you gaming ability is in much worse shape than worrying about what can be done during a Scout move.

Have you ever played a none cheese army? Play Tau and then talk to me about a Dreadknight standing 12" away from my lines on turn 1. Its simple for me - No..........it doesn't say you can so like every other rule we have to wait for this one will too.

That I know of, I have never played a cheese army. I started back in RT with Space Marines, changed to Dark Eldar when they came out in 3rd, didn't play during 4th, then came back in during 5th, once again using Dark Eldar, and will probably continue to play as Dark Eldar for the rest of the time I play 40k. I'm sorry if you think the Dark eldar are , but I really couldn't tell you if we are or not, because the two people I have seen besides myself around here that play DE can't build a list to save their lives. And I'm not talking about a COMPETITIVE list, I'm talking about a list period. How does a guy come to play a game with 4 Ravagers and a 30 man wych horde??? What are we, Orks??? Yeah, so I have never seen a decent DE list except here on Dakka and whatever I make that I think is good.

So, if DE are to you, sorry. If Tau are going to have an issue with it, I'm sure you'll find a way to adapt, Sure seems like for the abundance of Tau players (compared to DE players) I have seen that its not like you all aren't multiplying

Brother Ramses - so your argument is that the shunt isnt a move?

Your argument is flat out, 100% wrong.

The rules for shunt, that you are ignoring, state that you make a MOVE of up to 30"

So, this IS a move according to the World of Warhammer 40,000 (so it obeys the normal rules for moving models, i.e. they cannot end up less than 1" away) and therefore IS a "normal" move for the Teleporter model.

Please address your fallacy (it is not a move) given the rules stating it IS a move.

Your have failed to prove that the scout move must absolutely be a move defined in the BRB. You also seem to be suffering the illusion of BRB rules having a different priority than codex rules. Care to show me any of your units in your army in the BRB? Can't? I guess you are fielding an illegal army.

You have failed to prove that you may not do something instead of a regular move, if you are allowed to make a regular move exactly as if in your movement phase.

You have failed to prove that jump infantry and bikes are moving normally by your own definition. Bike and jump infantry movement rules are no more or less special than any rule in any codex.

You have failed to show that "instead" has any bearing on whether you can use it during your scout move. "Instead of moving normally" means nothing but two things: 1) You have to be able to move normal 2) You may not move normally if you use shunt.

You have failed to prove that turbo boost is any different from shunt, except for being printed in two different books and a slightly different wording. Any example of turbo boost or shunt you have given, the two are interchangeable without contradicting any rules.

You also have failed to notice that there is no GK FAQ at all, but even if there were, the absence of a FAQ does not prove anything in any way.

You have failed to prove your point.

Also note that it is a perfectly legal action to not move a scout at all, which contradicts the last one of your arguments, claiming a scout has to move.

Galandor: diary products have no bearing on rules whatsoever. If GW wants to prevent scout shunting they will errata it, until then it is a legal move.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Brother Ramses - so your argument is that the shunt isnt a move?

Your argument is flat out, 100% wrong.

The rules for shunt, that you are ignoring, state that you make a MOVE of up to 30"

So, this IS a move according to the World of Warhammer 40,000 (so it obeys the normal rules for moving models, i.e. they cannot end up less than 1" away) and therefore IS a "normal" move for the Teleporter model.

Please address your fallacy (it is not a move) given the rules stating it IS a move.

The act of physically moving the model 30" does not fulfill the defintion of a move in Warhammer 40k, especially when the rule tells you that instead of moving you are shunting. Point in case? Pivoting a vehicle. The model is physically moved but per the BRB he vehicle is considered not to have moved.

Instead of shooting, the model can run.

Instead of moving, the model can shunt.

Shunting is not moving like running is not shooting. No matter how much you want to champion the fact that it tells you to physically move the model the model 30", in Warhammer World the model has performed a shunt, not a move.

The argument here is about the word "normal". Units can turbo-boost while scouting because they have the ability to turbo-boost the entire game. Moving the standard length and a turbo-boost are normal moves for bikes and jetbikes.

However the teleport shunt can only be done once per game. If it can only be done once per game, then I don't think it counts as a normal move.

That isn't even a valid argument either though Soulx since frequency of being allowed to do something is not a measure of normal or not.

The argument for turbo-boosting is easily explained in that it is included in the movement section of bikes.

If GW had written,

"Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry. In addition once per game they can teleport shunt up to 30"."

You would be golden. That alone would make the shunt inclusive to their normal Jump Infantry movement. However because it is instead of moving, it moves it outside the Jump Infantry movement and makes it its own ability, outside of normal movement.

Brother Ramses wrote:
The act of physically moving the model 30" does not fulfill the defintion of a move in Warhammer 40k, especially when the rule tells you that instead of moving you are shunting. Point in case? Pivoting a vehicle. The model is physically moved but per the BRB he vehicle is considered not to have moved.

Instead of shooting, the model can run.

Instead of moving, the model can shunt.

Shunting is not moving like running is not shooting. No matter how much you want to champion the fact that it tells you to physically move the model the model 30", in Warhammer World the model has performed a shunt, not a move.

So I actually went through the trouble of getting a GK codex to quote from, and guess what:

"If making a a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a 30" move in any direction. This move cannot end up on top of a unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain and so on. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault on the same turn, although it can shoot and run as normal. The unit counts as having moved" GK codex, pg. 26 "Personal Teleporters"

Your invalid argument is invalid.

BR - see Jidmah above

Your argument relies on the 30" move not actually being a move, however the quote above proves that, as far as 40k is concerned it IS a move.

The unit even "counts as having moved"

If you want to disagree, despite again being shown your argument is based on an invalid premise, please fnid a rules quote for your argument.