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I was flipping through the codex when I started thinking about the possible combos a Inq. Hench unit could use to maximize their hitting power in CC.

The usage of such a unit would be to tear apart MEQ and lesser opponents in CC at first. Then I started thinking of other applications as well as flexibility for the unit in terms of relatively cheap point cost and ability to take on other dedicated CC units.

Here is what I am thinking would be an optimal set up assuming the ride is a Rhino and I wanted some level of flexibility with the unit:

5 Deathcult Assassin
2 Crusaders
3 Warrior Acolytes with Meltaguns

Dedicated Transport Rhino- 187 points

At 187 points, I get seven guys with power weapons (5 of which hit at I6 in CC), 3 meltaguns for popping vehicles/MCs nearby, 2 3++ invulnerable saves to help against ID and other power weapons that could get through, WS 5 for getting hit against thanks to 5 of the models having that characteristic, and a ride that is hard to slow down (easy to kill, but otherwise ignoring shaken/stun results thanks to fortitude).

Have others tinkered with what they think is an optimal Inq. Henchmen assault warband?

6 arco-flagellents
4 death cults
2 crusaders
rhino

The crusaders are there for wound allocation, and you get the five-attack-on-the-charge goodness from the arcos'. The rhino can almost assure them that they will get into combat.

(Not sure about points)

-Alex.

You need to message Hulksmash about this. =D

He's appointed himself the king of the assault henchmen.

You cannot fit 12 henchmen and an Inq in a rhino. Try again.

Hahaa sorry :/

drop two of the arcos'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i lied, wack em all in a chimera.

I prefer keeping the assault henchman purely assault-oriented. I really like 5 DCAs, 3 Crusaders, 1 plain Acolyte (ablative wound), and if you have the points, a banisher with a eviscerator (to discourage tank shock).

It all depends on what you target is.


You have two main choices for damage dealers in a given squad.

1) Against MEQ/TEQ

In this case you will want as many Death Cultists as you can get. Their ability to ignore Armor is by far the best against this type of target.

2) Against GEQ/Hordes

In this case you will want as many Arco-Flagellants as you can get. They have a better save, more attacks and higher Strength. You have less Initiative, but overall you will deal more damage. and therefore win combat by more and force more fearless saves.

3) The Rest (and why you will not use them)
Daemonshosts only have 1 attack, WS3 and random abilities.
Banishers only have 1 attack, WS3 and you have to pay for the Eviscerator (almost good, but just a little pricey for my blood)
Servitors have one S3 attack and one Servo Arm attack, WS3 and mindlock
Warriors have only 1 attack, WS3 and pay way too much for their close combat upgrades.

==============

Your next choice is choosing between Damage and Resilience. The choice here is How Many Crusaders do i add compared to the number of "Damage Dealers"

1) A mostly death Cult unit hits first (most of the time) so it needs less help to survive in the Assault phase, however it only has a 5++ save against shooting. The crusaders will help you more in the shooting phase. This is a question of how you want to use this unit.

If you are going into reserves with an assault vehicle or as a counter attack unit in a mostly shooty list, then you do not need many crusaders at all. the unit will come on from reserves, hit a target and then be done. Keep the unit small and cheap.

If you are taking the fight to the enemy deployment zone, then you will need a more durable unit. I would go half and half on the crusaders and the Death Cultists. You will want to have enough crusaders there to take a unit or two of shooting without dropping in number and wounds are allocated to your Death Cultists.

2) Most of the Above applies to an Acro unit as well, the only difference is that Arcos are a little more durable to small arms than the Cultists, so you could afford to take a hit or two on your Arcos. Maybe 4 crusaders to 6 Arcos or something like that.

==============================

Force Multipliers

There are a lot of independent characters that you can add to a Henchman unit in order to make them more powerful in the assault phase. Here are a few of them

1) Corteaz

-Hammerhand: +1 S is nice, but it is very common in the Grey Knight book.
-Sanctuary: This is a great bonus, it means that your opponent might not be able to charge you on their turn and they will take some damage just for trying. Useful against other combat armies.
-Scoring: you unit will be troops, so it can take objectives now.

Overall: Cheap, but not the best. Has a nice mix of buffs, but also has useful shooting buffs (I've been expecting you) as well. Depending on what kind of list you enemy has, he goes with either a shooting or assault unit.

2) Xenos Inquisitor

-hammerhand: as above but you pay pts for it
-Rad Grenades: With hammerhand and these guys your Acros will deal instant Death to T4 units. Helps deny FNP and deal multiple wounds.
-Psycostroke Grenades: Good Range of debuffs, but some of them are less useful than others. (If you have a Cultist unit, they generally hit first anyways so INT 1 not helpful)I think it helps the Arcos more as more of the options are better more of the time. Result 6 is especially bad for hordes, mostly orks, though.

Overall: Cheap way to get hammerhand and the special grenades. I think he helps the Arcos a little more than the Cultists. If you want a Henchman combat unit, BUT not Corteaz, this is the guy to take.

3) Techmarine

-Hammerhand: same as above
-Rad and Psykostroke grenades: Same as above, but Rad is 5 pts less
-Blind Grenades: Defensive grenades are nice to have, and they are very cheep as well. Great when combined with Sanctuary to make a unit no one wants to charge.
-Nemesis weapons and Servo Arms: Deals more damage in combat than an Inquisitor. You can take the force weapons for a cost to add even more punch
-Servo Harness weapons: you get some shooting as well, a nice little bonus if you want it.

Overall: Basically this guy is the same as the Xenos Inquisitor, but he hits a little harder in combat and has some shooting weapons. He does cost more however. If you already have your 2 HQ spots filled, he is a decent choice.

4) GK Librarian

-Hammerhand and sanctuary: yadda yadda. same as above
-Might of Titan: This is a great one if you want to multi-assault a Parking lot. Better with Arcos as you can get S7+2D6 (also you used hammerhand) and power weapons do not matter on tanks
-Quicksilver: INT 10 is fun, again better for the Arcos as they have low INT to start with.
-Shrouding: Stealth helps you get to where you need to be better. 3+ smoke or flat out saves is nice.
-Shooting Attacks: You have your Choice of deadly Shooting Attacks as well, if you want to take them
-Nemesis Weapons: you start with a 4++ on combat, and you can take our favorite damage dealer if you want to.

Overall: This guy can do a lot of different things. Good offensive and defensive buffs and will deal some damage either by shooting or assaulting as well. Can get very pricey very fast, so be careful not to put too many eggs in one basket.

5) GK Grand Master

-Hammerhand, Rad, blind, and Psykostroke Grenades: you have seen these before
-Nemesis weapons: Starts with a 3++ in combat or you can pick you favorite way to hurt people.
-BS 6 and relentless: if you want to take the Psycannon you can, but you pay for it.
-Grand Strategy: You can make a whole army based on this.

Overall: By far the best in combat on his own, and he can buff a squad as well as the Techmarine can. Grand Strategy is too much to go into detail with, but there are a lot of great options with this. By far the most expensive, but does the most as well.

==========================

Do I add shooting elements or not?

This is a question for your own personal playstyle as there is no one right or wrong answer to this question. Some people prefer units that excel at doing one thing. Other people prefer units that do a multitude of things well so there is no good way to deal with them.

My own Personal Preference is to have the Assault units be only assault oriented and you use transports or other shooting units to kill vehicles and get to the stuff inside.

However, adding come combat elements to a unit of 3 Melta Warriors, means that they can not just be dealt with by assaulting them. It given the enemy player less ways to deal with this unit.


===============

When it comes to unit composition overall, it is very hard to determine something that is "best". You can find something that is good against Ork Boys, but will losse to Terminators. Think about what you are going to do with your unit. Then playtest and see if it works.


EDIT: post #500

Um, take 10 of the psychers and just spam the str 10 ap 1 assault 1 large blast from a chimera, you can't be beat.

juraigamer wrote:Um, take 10 of the psychers and just spam the str 10 ap 1 assault 1 large blast from a chimera, you can't be beat.

They are only LD8

That means they only have a 72% chance to cast their spell (about a 3 out of 4 chance)
Also, if you do roll a perils of the warp, the whole unit goes away.


Almost every list that can have Psy Defence, takes it. Almost Every competitive Eldar list takes a Farseer with Runes of Warding. Almost every competitive SM list (of any Flavor) takes a Librarian

If there is a LD10 hood in range, you have a 20% chance to cast your spell. (72% to cast, and then 27% to beat the hood)

If you are casting on a 3d6, You only have a 26% chance to cast your spell


If you are facing an Eldar Player with Runes of Warding you have a 38% chance of killing your own unit with a perils
If you are in the Shadow of the Warp, you have a 17% chance to kill your own unit with a perils


EVEN IF you get to cast the spell, You still have to roll scatter (with BS3) and there are still cover saves to Deal with (smoke, KFF, a bunch of spells, Skimmers moving fast, and Area Terrain) It is still only One hit against One vehicle. and then you get ONE result on the damage table.

5th Edition is more about getting a lot of good shots instead of one Super Shot; Reliability and consistency.

===============

Also, if you actually read the thread at all you would see that is was about Henchmen in the Assault Phase, not Henchmen with assault guns.....

It seems to me, after reading svendrex's thoughtful assessments that a Librarian can provide the most flexibility when added to an assault-oriented henchunit. I 10 Flagellants or S 6 (hammerhand and might) Assasins could do some serious face-beating. And depending on your opponent, you could put him in with whichever group needs him the most.

In terms of flexibility, I'm imagining two henchunits in Stormravens. The henchunits would be mostly Assasins, with a few Flagellants, and a storm shield or two. Grand Master can give the Ravens Scouts for either first turn assaulting or outflanking.

. . . I'm just going to go post a list where they belong.

In a Rhino:

6 Death Cultists

3 Crusaders

1 Warrior with Melta Bombs (discourages tank shock even better than an Eviserator, and if you make it into CC, he's the first allocated wound).

In a Chimera:

6 Death Cultists

3 Crusaders

2 Arco-Flagellants

1 Warrior wit Melta Bombs

The thing about these, though, is that they're not assault vehicles. Where the real money is at (if you can afford the points and lack of Autocannon Dreadnought) is this:

12 Death Cultists

3 Crusaders

1 Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
Hammerhand
Rad and Psychostroke Grenades
Power Armor

In a Land Raider Crusader

The LRC overcomes the 3 greatest weaknesses of assault henchmen, which are (1) no assault grenades, (2) vulnerability to shooting, and (3) lack of assault vehicle on Rhino/Chimeras.

Against MEQ, if you get Hammerhand off, you're striking first with 48 attacks, hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, and ignoring their armor. Math says you did 13 no-save wounds, and that isn't even taking into account the Psychostroke grenades or the attacks from the Crusaders/Inquisitor.

Oh, and the unit is 320 points before the transport. Not a bad cost for a deathstar...

DCA are too good at their job. You don't want to wipe the unit as soon as you charge it since you'll just get shot up next turn.

Amaya wrote:DCA are too good at their job. You don't want to wipe the unit as soon as you charge it since you'll just get shot up next turn.

While this is true, you also don't want too many attacks coming at your 5+ save girls. Its also not a big deal if you get shot up if you just killed a unit that was worth it.

I am wondering on why people are taking the assault builds and putting them into non assault vehicles. I put my DCAs + other guys (a xenos inq with hammerhand and rad grenades) into a LRC for the assault launchers. Being able to safely assault into cover gives you a nice advantage. When you kill the enemy, you get a cover save from the retaliation.

svendrex wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Um, take 10 of the psychers and just spam the str 10 ap 1 assault 1 large blast from a chimera, you can't be beat.

They are only LD8

That means they only have a 72% chance to cast their spell (about a 3 out of 4 chance)
Also, if you do roll a perils of the warp, the whole unit goes away.


Almost every list that can have Psy Defence, takes it. Almost Every competitive Eldar list takes a Farseer with Runes of Warding. Almost every competitive SM list (of any Flavor) takes a Librarian

If there is a LD10 hood in range, you have a 20% chance to cast your spell. (72% to cast, and then 27% to beat the hood)

If you are casting on a 3d6, You only have a 26% chance to cast your spell


If you are facing an Eldar Player with Runes of Warding you have a 38% chance of killing your own unit with a perils
If you are in the Shadow of the Warp, you have a 17% chance to kill your own unit with a perils


EVEN IF you get to cast the spell, You still have to roll scatter (with BS3) and there are still cover saves to Deal with (smoke, KFF, a bunch of spells, Skimmers moving fast, and Area Terrain) It is still only One hit against One vehicle. and then you get ONE result on the damage table.

5th Edition is more about getting a lot of good shots instead of one Super Shot; Reliability and consistency.

===============

Also, if you actually read the thread at all you would see that is was about Henchmen in the Assault Phase, not Henchmen with assault guns.....

Just to point this out, if his units are in a chimera, Shadow in the warp does not effect them...

notabot187 wrote:

Amaya wrote:DCA are too good at their job. You don't want to wipe the unit as soon as you charge it since you'll just get shot up next turn.

While this is true, you also don't want too many attacks coming at your 5+ save girls. Its also not a big deal if you get shot up if you just killed a unit that was worth it.

I am wondering on why people are taking the assault builds and putting them into non assault vehicles. I put my DCAs + other guys (a xenos inq with hammerhand and rad grenades) into a LRC for the assault launchers. Being able to safely assault into cover gives you a nice advantage. When you kill the enemy, you get a cover save from the retaliation.

I think using them as a counter assault unit might be better due to the absurd cost of Imperium assault vehicles. Or put them in a SR to save a few points and get them into assault faster.

Can assassins ride in vehicles now?

@ shealyr

Your "deathstar" unit is too large. The max unit size for Henchmen is 12 people, and you have 15 in that unit.


@ Footsloggin

That is true, and I think you are immune to Hoods as well. All it means is that your Chimeras with the psykers have a higher target priority. If the are shaken or stunned, you will need to get out to shoot. Rhinos might be better with fortitude. They are okay, but I am just wary of a LD 8 psyker is all.

Runes of Warding however DO work against units in transports, and will still make your Psyker units useless/explode their own heads.

The thing that got me going was the phrase "you can't be beat". Everything can be beaten. Everything is a counter to something and is countered by something else.

No, I think hoods do effect you in transports, the soft rock that plays inside of the tyranid opponent's "METAL BAWKSES" turns off Shadow in the Warp.

The henchemens comes withouth assault greandes.

I would sugest taking 2 Inqisitors and make the psykic getting +2 on the reserve roll.

Turn 2 roll in 2 big stormravens with henchemen and posibly dreadnoughts, now you can assault to your heart content.

I am not shure at what point level this is best buf if you can manadge to equip yourself for long ranged fire suport you will be forcing the oponent to come to you. Perhaps with barrels of monkeys and rhino/laserbacks. It could be very cool.

So a Librarian provides a heck of a lot of support, and a decent amount of extra face beating, is it really worth adding one? They almost double the cost of a henchunit with an inquisitor, do they double the usefulness? I would miss Might of Titan, because it lets you go after vehicles much more reliably, but is it worth 165+ points?

I think sticking with either a XInquisitor or a Techmarine (for Rad and Toke grenades) is probably the most backup I'd put in an assault henchsquad.

I thought for sure that DCA had frag nades in their wargear. Will have to check later.

As for build, I think it depends on a few things, like who is in the unit.

If you have an inquisitor in the unit, then I like a mix of DCA and servitors. The servitors have that nice 4+ armor, powerfist, multimelta, and t4 majority, all for 10 per. Then you have the inq with grenade sillyness, and DCA with their ws5 i6 blenderblades.

Without the inq in the squad, a mix of DCA and crusaders I think is fine, heavy on the DCA. I like 6 man squads myself, as razorbacks are awesome, and 4DCA +2 crusaders is usually going to murder anything it touches that is not double its cost.

I'm thinking dropping a 12-man unit from a Stormraven, myself. Currently I've slated an XInquisitor, 5 assassins, 4 Flagellants, and 2 Crusaders. It's seriously looking like running all Assassins would be a better choice. With Rad grenades and Hammerhand, even MCs are wounded on 4+, so I don't know if the higher Str is worth losing the power weapon on the Flagellents.

Depending on how many high initiative opponents I come across, Crusaders might not even be necessary. However, if you want to stay in combat during your opponent's turn, they might be a good investment.

ElCheezus wrote:So a Librarian provides a heck of a lot of support, and a decent amount of extra face beating, is it really worth adding one? They almost double the cost of a henchunit with an inquisitor, do they double the usefulness? I would miss Might of Titan, because it lets you go after vehicles much more reliably, but is it worth 165+ points?

I think sticking with either a XInquisitor or a Techmarine (for Rad and Toke grenades) is probably the most backup I'd put in an assault henchsquad.

What I was also Considering is adding a mystic to the squad and taking "summoning". no scatter deep strike with Jokaero Heavy Flamers or the melta guns in the same squad is what I am thinking.

Also Shrouding for 3+ cover saves with smoke or flat out is good too. It helps get your army across the board.

The Librarian is so much more than a combat buff; you have to look at everything it can do on the table.

DevianID wrote:I thought for sure that DCA had frag nades in their wargear. Will have to check later.

As for build, I think it depends on a few things, like who is in the unit.

If you have an inquisitor in the unit, then I like a mix of DCA and servitors. The servitors have that nice 4+ armor, powerfist, multimelta, and t4 majority, all for 10 per. Then you have the inq with grenade sillyness, and DCA with their ws5 i6 blenderblades.

Without the inq in the squad, a mix of DCA and crusaders I think is fine, heavy on the DCA. I like 6 man squads myself, as razorbacks are awesome, and 4DCA +2 crusaders is usually going to murder anything it touches that is not double its cost.

I hate to burst your bubble, but Iquisitorial Servitors are only T3. The only Henchmen with T4 are the Daemonhosts.

I would just take 6 DCA in a Razor and be done with it. They kill 8 marines on average when they charge. They are cheap and they kill stuff. One charge and you are done. You do not need the Crusaders to protect such a small unit.

Yeah, DCA'a with no help is the way to go. I'd give them an assault vehicle to get the charge as well... a storm raven is great.

The DCA are relatively cheap and effective. No need to protect them.

ender502

Oh, I know the Librarian can do a whole heck of a lot, which is why I wanted to add one in the first place. But when I was calulating the line by line costs of the unit, the Librarain comes up to over half of the cost. A unit of 10 henchmen and an Inquisitor feel like they can do enough damage with a single charge (especially if it's multi), but adding a Librarian means they sudden have a lot more invested in them. They'll have to survive a lot longer, and I think they're better suited as a mostly throwaway squad.

The thought of taking a mystic and summoning reinforcements does sound nice, though, especially if it's a transport. Not sure if it would work with my current visualisation of dumping the henchmen out of a Stormraven to assault, though. Ideally, he wouldn't be on the board at the beginning of the movement phase until the turn after he assaulted, meaning he'd have to survive. It's doable (and probably not that hard), but just another consideration.

ender502 wrote:Yeah, DCA'a with no help is the way to go. I'd give them an assault vehicle to get the charge as well... a storm raven is great.

The DCA are relatively cheap and effective. No need to protect them.

ender502

Still toying around with my preferred build but I agree, get your DCA on the charge and you've paid for them. A second round of combat is more or less gravy.

So far I've had success with 6 DCA, 5 Warriors with Stormbolters and a Xenos Inquisitor with Rad/Psycho/Hammerhand in a Chimera.

10 bolter shots out of the hatch is nice, and 6 DCA is plenty to take out most 5-10 man squads, no matter how tough they are (after HH and Rad).

It's really preference though - what points do you have and what works with your style? It seems the assaulty inquisition henchman squads are quite forgiving in that respect (sorry Eldar...).

DoW

It makes little sense to put this unit in a rhino. A chimera would give you two more slots, allow all those meltas to fire safely out of the hatches, and give you a multilaser and heavy flamer to use.

withershadow wrote:It makes little sense to put this unit in a rhino. A chimera would give you two more slots, allow all those meltas to fire safely out of the hatches, and give you a multilaser and heavy flamer to use.

The big thing a GK Rhino does is give you Fortitude. For an assault-based army that needs to get to you to do something, I prefer to lose AV 12 and the difference in points to ensure that my transports will get into combat short of being immobilized, destroyed, or boxed in by skimmers.

Hammerhand Arco's is a good idea, I hadn't considered these guys before. The extra attack I discounted versus the DCA's due to the DCA's would likely to be wounding on 2's vs most infantry units regardless and the +1A is pretty much discountabe versus a ignoring all armour saves (even 6+ save, it helps). Versus orks the additional non-power attacks may add up but vs all other types of infantry DCA's are better.

But, against vehicles.. str6 is quite reasonable, especially with that many attacks. I was, previous to reading this thread, considering Banisher's wielding eviscerator's but that 1 attack base combined with the 2x cost is just painful.

The only uses I can see for the str8 (hammerhand) 2d6 powerfist attacks from the banisher is Landraiders and Walkers.

Can anyone help me with the math hammer of 1 banisher with 2 attacks vs a non-AV14 rear hull vs 10 str6 attacks?

Rear AV 10, and you hit on a 4+


Banisher

So for 30pts you get 2 attacks

.03 glances and .97 pens


Arco-Flagellent

For 30 pts you get 10 attacks.

.83 glances, 1.67 pens.


The Acro-Flagellent wins!

I prefer 12 Crusaders. Nothing is going to shift that In a hurry.

But realistically I prefer 1 Jokaero - 2 Jokaero. Stick that in a chimera and your firing a ML HF and 2 Las, or 1.

Not half bad really.

Theoretically I would go for 6 of 2 Jokaero and 1 Crusader.
Chimera's with more firepower than a LR....

But anyway what I actually go for is

10 Warriors with Hot shots and 1 Jokaero. Stick that with Coteaz and you've got one shooty unit. Only good for small games.

I don't like DCA spam. They pop the tank with a suicide squad they get killed goodbye DCA squads. You need some Jokaero's or Ordo Xenos with Conversion beamer for some LR AT.