Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been floating an idea around that is getting some interest with the players in my area of having a tournament that forces different list builds than the typical competitive lists that have been showing up at the past several events. Rather than have player-judged composition, each codex will have one choice that is not allowed at the tournament by gentlemen's agreement. Everyone has voiced their opinions on what they'd like to avoid in a tournament and I'd like feedback and ideas for units from a codex that we haven't come up with yet.

Space Marines:
Banned: Vulkan
0-1: Sternguard

Space Wolves:
Banned: Long Fangs
0-1: Thunder Wolf Cavalry

Dark Eldar:
Banned: Ravagers
0-1: Trueborn

Blood Angels (Double ban for this list):
Banned: Mephiston
Banned: Dante

Necrons:
Banned: Deceiver
0-1: Monolith

Eldar:
Banned: Seer Council
0-1: Fire Prism

Tau:
Banned: Farsight
0-1: Hammerhead

Orks:
Banned: Big Mek
0-1: Battlewagon

Grey Knights:
Banned: Purifiers
0-1: Dreadnought

Imperial Guard:
Banned: Vendetta
0-1: Medusa

Tyranids:
Banned: Doom
0-1: Tervigon

Chaos Daemons:
Banned: Fateweaver
0-1: Daemon Prince

Chaos Space Marines:
Banned: Daemon Prince
0-1: Obliterators

This would affect all the builds that are becoming too typical and would force some creative army lists. Please let me know if you can build an army that circumvents this composition limitation, thanks!

The other idea for a tournament, a little more wacky, would be a tournament where everyone brings marines but uses the rules from White Dwarf 300 for Movie Marines. Models would have to be fully painted, and the painting score will be equal to battle points.

I'm not a fun of banning anything. I think some 0-1s would be acceptable, though.

I'm also not sure why Blood Angels get singled out as the double ban list. There's nothing wrong with Dante. He costs a bundle, and can still get punked by a single failed roll against a powerfist. Also, banning him means you ban an entire kind of army, which is the full Sanguinary Guard army. While your at it, might as well ban Sammeal, Belial, Logan Grimmnar, Corteaz, Captains on bikes and whoever it is that makes Helions Troops, just to be fair.

If anything, Ban Mephiston and make Furioso Dreadnoughts or Vanguard Vets 0-1.

Commander Endova wrote:Also, banning him means you ban an entire kind of army

That's the point.

But yeah, I feel a little weird about the BA restrictions. Everyone I've talked to complains about the two special characters, not really anything else in the codex. I like the idea of banning Mephiston and 0-1 Furioso, though.

As an ork player, banning a big mek seems absurd. I could see that ghaz is overused but there is no reason to remove the big mek from play. Orks need the kff.

I am not sure I agree with any of the bans for non special characters.

Oaka wrote:
Orks:
Banned: Big Mek
0-1: Battlewagon

So I can't take a KFF, and only one battlewagon, but I still run a nob biker spam list?

Leigen_Zero wrote:

Oaka wrote:
Orks:
Banned: Big Mek
0-1: Battlewagon

So I can't take a KFF, and only one battlewagon, but I still run a nob biker spam list?

Exactly, and looking at some of the other ban lists, there won't be anyone that can stop you either.

EDIT:

Although maybe if you change the restrictions across the board to 0-1 HQ, and then each other unit can only be chosen once unless they are troops. So for example, you could still have 3 elites, but they all couldn't be the same unit. That would force more variety then just a single ban.

Oaka wrote:
Space Wolves:
Banned: Long Fangs
0-1: Thunder Wolf Cavalry

I dont see it as a good thing banning the Long Fangs. When you concider in the wolve's list, they are the only way to take man-packed heavy weapons?

Space Marine Razorback lists should do just fine in this environment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, just noticed that Tyranids lost a troop choice. This is fair and balanced.

A single ban and a 0-1 will do nothing to stop power gaming lists

Let us take the Blood Angels as an example

No Mephiston or Dante

I can still take Librarian for Shield/Rage
I can still take Priests
I can still take 5 man assault marines in a Razorback
I can still take 5 man Missile Devastator Squads in a Razorback

You have done nothing to stop the Razorspam BA list.
All you did is take away some of the best anti-tank from some other lists (like Dark Eldar)

You can not Ban enough stuff to get rid of every spam list out there.


I think that this is a better idea

HQ's are all 0-1

You may only include 1 named Character (HQ or upgrade character)

Elite, Fast and Heavies are all 0-1

For troops.
If you only have 1 troop selection, there are no restrictions (think Necrons)
If you have 2 Troops selections, each one is 0-3 (Orks, Space Marines)
If you have 3 or more troops selections, each one is 0-2 (Guard, Chaos Space Marines)

If you move a unit's FOC, then it affects this chart. For example if you take a unit of Nobs as troops, you now have 3+ troop selections so your boys are now 0-2

Dedicated Transports are limited to 1 per 500 pts. (2 transports for a 1000 pt game, 3 for a 1500 pt game)


I think that a system like this will force players to take a variety of units, Rather than just finding the best units you did not ban, and them Spamming them.

I extremely dislike your idea. You CANNOT do something like this without severely imbalancing the entire game

The typical competitive Mech BA army (which is most of what shows up at competitive events) doesn't use Dante or Mephiston anyway.

HQ: Cheap Librarian with SoS
Troop1: 5 marines in Las/plas razorback
Troop2: 5 marines in Las/plas razorback
Troop3: 5 marines in Las/plas razorback
Troop4: 5 marines in Las/plas razorback
Fast Attack 1: Baal predator
Fast Attack 2: Baal Predator
Fast Attack 3: Baal predator
Heavy Support 1: Auto/las predator
Heavy Support 2: Auto/las predator
Heavy Support 3: Auto/las predator

I see that variants of that list all over the country. I rarely see any other type of BA list. Oh well, it happens. But now....you've removed ALL THE TOOLS that everyone else has to deal with a list like this. No long fangs allowed. No ravagers allowed. No Vendettas allowed.

And speaking of IG, Vedettas are personal flavor. 0-1 Medusa? Those don't even show up in competitive lists.

Typical Mech IG list:

Bunch of Chimeras
2-3 vendettas
2-3 hydra flak cannons
1-2 manticores, mixed with 1-2 leman russes.

So out of that whole thing, you're going to ban the vendetta, and then take away EVERYONE ELSE's ability to deal with the mechspam.

The problem with this concept is that not every army has a "best unit." You make Monoliths 0-1. Ok, so Necrons are screwed. With overcosted underperforming mandatory troop choices, monoliths are pretty important for teleporting troop choices around the board, out of combat, onto objectives. Because every OTHER army (except tyranids) has vehicles that can get their troops around fast. You don't want Necron warriors moving more than 6" per turn? Fine.

Why don't you simply ban all vehicles from all armies. That would make it more fair. No one gets any vehicles at all. No one is allowed to take more than X number of STR8+ weapons in their army.

Seer Council's banned, and Fire Prisms 0-1. *chuckles* Who cares? WHen you can take 6 wave serpents and 9 war-walkers, Eldrad the Broken...you don't need a seer council. Those are so two years ago anyway.

The only way for you to balance this - and while it would still be poor it would be much better - is to institute some army wide rules. No vehicles may be taken that have more than 32 total armour value on all sides. No army may have more than 1 type of the same unit. (You're only making Necrons illegal this way, but you were already screwing them worst of all, so it doesn't matter).

But this....is a horribly imbalanced poorly thought out idea.

Svendrex's concept is much better.

As always, all any composition restrictions will do is create a new spread of power, it will not level the field. Like most attempts at comp, this one will actually reward the best codices, while hurting the weakest.

Borderline armies such as CSM or Nids become far weaker, while top shelf armies like IG or BA just take the next best available unit.

Svendrex's solution will make things more interesting among the upper armies, but will hose the mid-level and weakest armies pretty bad. Some armies only have a handful of truly good units.

I would be happy to play under Svendrex's restrictions with my CSM. It would require one change from my Adepticon Championships list.

Space Marines:
Banned: Vulkan
0-1: Sternguard

You'd be better off with 0-1 Assault Terminators ... won't stop combat squadding 10 of them, but I don't know that Sternguard are really the problem.

Space Wolves:
Banned: Long Fangs
0-1: Thunder Wolf Cavalry

Thunder Wolves as an effective unit are fading; long fangs makes sense since everyone spams them; 0-1 Wolf Scouts

Dark Eldar:
Banned: Ravagers
0-1: Trueborn

*shrug* ... DE are already kinda boned

Blood Angels (Double ban for this list):
Banned: Mephiston
Banned: Dante

As has been stated, this doesn't make very much sense. Mephiston is about to go the way of the DoDo with Grey Knights being able to gank him 12 ways from Sunday. Nipplewing is a rockpaperscissors list, and loses to numerous match-ups on face value, so banning Dante makes little sense. BA are not rocking everyone's world; they don't really require limitations.

Necrons:
Banned: Deceiver
0-1: Monolith

Is this just so you can do something for every list? You shouldn't ban ANYTHING from the contemporary Necron dex ... if you want to be "fair" and ban something from everyone, ban Flayed Ones and 0-1 the Nightbringer. Heh.

Eldar:
Banned: Seer Council
0-1: Fire Prism

I suppose this makes sense, if you're going to ban anything. You'd be better off banning Eldrad. Plain jane seers don't have nearly as much impact, and are far easier to punch or shoot to death.

Tau:
Banned: Farsight
0-1: Hammerhead

Heh, banning Farsight ... this is what you shoudl be doing with the Necron dex; banning things that are pointless to begin with.

Orks:
Banned: Big Mek
0-1: Battlewagon

Banning the big mek breaks the only thing Orks can reliably do well, and encourages Nob Bikers even more. This is kind of the opposite of what you want to do. 0-1 on Battlewagon makes sense; try banning Nobs, or Lootas.

Grey Knights:
Banned: Purifiers
0-1: Dreadnought

Shouldn't be banning anything yet; if you want to prevent purifier psycannon spam (which isn't even all that good), ban CROWE so that people can still take a few purifiers if they want, and the 0-1 should probably be on henchman squads, so that you don't see the other side of overreaction with henchspam.

Imperial Guard:
Banned: Vendetta
0-1: Medusa

0-1 Manticore, far more dangerous than Medusa, and a big concern b/c of the way its rules break basic game mechanics (killing a unit at range with a unit, vs. killing or banging up several at a time) ... the Vendetta banning is not as impactful as you'd think.

Tyranids:
Banned: Doom
0-1: Tervigon

Ruining an already underpowered dex even further? Good call. Banning doom accomplishes little; it stopped being good when it was FAQ'ed that it didn't reach into transports (not that it should have).

Chaos Daemons:
Banned: Fateweaver
0-1: Daemon Prince

Most players at the top tier aren't taking Fatey as much / often anymore, so banning him is questionable. 0-1 Fiends and ban Bloodcrushers, and you'll see some really whacky freaking out list building happen.

Chaos Space Marines:
Banned: Daemon Prince
0-1: Obliterators

Again, mean to an already weakening dex.


Like most comp systems, this one screws the average player and benefits the codex breaking powergamers, who are better equipped and experienced with making the best of what they have. I guess you'll see some new lists, but ...

Anywho, please take with grain of salt; typing in a hurry so not monitoring for tone; this is meant amicably / non-confrontationally / non-negatively.

Mannahnin wrote:I would be happy to play under Svendrex's restrictions with my CSM. It would require one change from my Adepticon Championships list.

Comp is comp. I think Polonius was right to say it is just a game of whack-a-mole. I would definitely have to make some changes to make it (svendrex's) work, but that's just because it conflicts with some of my basic design choices.

It would kinda hurt my normal sisters list. Okay, I keep my canoness, lose a Celestian squad, lose 2 xExorcists. So I take more Guard/Basic Sisters squads. It'll be hell to shoot off the board, but won't really do a lot of damage in return. Oooh, just noticed the Ded Transport conditions... I would have to put my Seraphim back in to get enough points.
Definitely doable, but I would feel very naked without 3x Exos. I haven't run a sisters list without at least that for yeaaaars.

My Space Wolves? That would require a bit of a rework since my most current force is basically a facestomp MSU one. Luckily I have plenty of models to change it around. I would probably buy a box of Terms and do the crazy walking wolves build that would tear up this kind of comp.

My footguard would completely ignore these restrictions except making them choose between a PBS and Marbo. Other than that, it would just be more bodies in platoons and bigger power blobs.

My new orks? They'd fair a bit worse. Wazdakka for bike troops means no warboss. 1xLoota, 1x Nob Bikers and 1xDeffkopta. Now I can only have 2 units of bikes in the army? Umm. Yeah, that's not going to work out. I don't even own normal boys. I guess I can make 2 10 man squads of gretchin, but those aren't really going to fill points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Mvbrandt: The wacky thing about his list is not that he is trying to make things fair or ban broken combos but just ban things that players at his location 'don't want to see' in the next tournament.

I guess the list makes more sense in that context. It's almost a 'breath of fresh air' comp.

Thanks for the last two replies, with actual suggestions rather than 'Oh noes, my list!'. To prevent unforeseeable imbalance, there will only be one banned unit per codex, and it would be the unit that seems to be an auto-include for most lists. The name of the tournament is "Leave your crutches at home!"

So, the banned list so far with the replies:

Vulkan
Long Fangs
Ravagers
Mephiston
Monolith
Eldrad
Big Mek
Crowe
Vendetta
Fateweaver
Daemon Prince


And just so every codex has a unit on the list(I don't consider them auto-includes at all):

Farsight
Tervigon

svendrex wrote:I think that a system like this will force players to take a variety of units, Rather than just finding the best units you did not ban, and them Spamming them.

I would take Imperial Guard, on foot, and cover the table in as many heavy weapons teams as possible. A healthy mix of autocannons and missiles should do just fine. Considering the most I will ever see is 5-6 vehicles total, there is no issue playing this way. Giant blobs of infantry stand in front and torrent down any troops that come near.

The entire army would be 1 HQ, 2 Troops slots taken, and there would be no stopping it. While normally extremely weak to tank shocking strategies, they can eliminate the one factor that would lose them their games.

All this is beside the point. Your system, svendrex, like any other, imbalances the game worse than when before you started changing the rules. Some armies depend on their fast attack or heavy slots to be competitive. Limiting them gives other armies with strong troops a huge advantage. Have fun playing as Tau or Necrons with 1 heavy, 1 elites...

I know dashofpepper was just tossing out ideas, but many armies depend on their transports. Furthermore, melta stops being as relevant if the entire table is AV11/12 as a limiting factor, and armies that can toss a lot of Autocannons out will be king.

Everyone means well with their composition ideas, but doesn't actually think this through to their conclusion (how balance is affected). If you want complete balance, just tell people what list they can bring. If you want variety, leave all the options open.

@fearspect: It's 0-1 of EACH heavy, elite, fa. So Tau/Necrons at least could fill out the slots if they wanted. Off the top of my head, most codexes have 3 different for each FOC slot.

So you'd still see some weird lists. I agree.

@Oaka: As a one-time thing, themed tournament, I don't think it is a bad idea. It will definitely just break things in a different way, but whatever.

If it was a long-term, multiple event thing, I would retire my other armies and play foot guard.

As some have stated, not every codex is getting screwed the same amount by the limitations. My 2 cents.

slapping necrons while they are down by taking away monolith!

Mannahnin wrote:Svendrex's concept is much better.

I agree- if you were going to go that route, it seems better thought out to me.

But as a one-off tournament among people who know each other, banning a single thing shouldn't be too bad. It just wouldn't work on a larger scale / with people who didn't know each other...

Yep, the idea is that it is a local tournament and everyone seems to be on board with the 'challenge' of having to change their armies up for a single tournament. It will also help the two local stores if every regular player picks up a unit or two that they otherwise wouldn't. I'm not expecting a national tournament player to travel with their razorspam list just to win this little event.

Anyways, the more I think about a Movie Marine tournament, the more I would prefer to organize that event instead of attempting a composition tournament. It suits my approach to the hobby more, with the potential for some great conversions and paint jobs and some interesting gaming situations. I hope to post the preliminary ideas for it once the White Dwarf with the rules in it that I bought on eBay arrives.

What are you referring to by "movie marine"? (I haven't heard of it)

RiTides wrote:What are you referring to by "movie marine"? (I haven't heard of it)

It's a variety of 40K in WD 300 where you use a Tac squad with the equivalent stats for a "movie" featuring them(ie, more how the fluff portrays them). So a force of 10 guys plus a Rhino or Razorback vs a whole army. Really only works thematically if you're facing non-meq armies.

They've each got 3+/3++(with the option for stunt doubles to take the death), 5's or 6's across the Stat board, all have Rending(both on their Assault 4 36"[iirc] Bolters and their knives), and tons of other crazy rules(a Lasback fires a line of death style Lasbeam).

If anything, I'd suggest hive guard for the restricted Nid choice.

I think if this is a local challenge, rather than focusing on making it symmetrical, actually ban all "auto-includes" and restrict more units. So you ban/restrict more choices in good codices, and fewer in the worse ones.

Polonius wrote:If anything, I'd suggest hive guard for the restricted Nid choice.

I think if this is a local challenge, rather than focusing on making it symmetrical, actually ban all "auto-includes" and restrict more units. So you ban/restrict more choices in good codices, and fewer in the worse ones.

Actually, if this is a local thing, why not just tailor it to your local players rather than making rules? You could talk to each player and find out what their crutch is and have them remove it. Makes more sense than trying to find a broad solution for a very small population.

So....with Monoliths on the banned list...you won't see any necrons...?

EDIT:

Petre makes a good suggestion, although I'd imagine Oaka has already communicated/vetted this through his local community and they are probably all on board anyway. Still, it's very much a ban list from 2 years ago it seems, and basically leaves Space Marines (all flavors) on top and gimps everyone else's chances to take them on.

I played in a small local tourny that was called Tale of Two armies. Basically you brought two 1000 point lists from the same codex but you could only take a unit in one of the lists (exeption: troops). So you could take long fangs in one list but not the other. At the start of each game your opponent would select the list you would have to use. Still doesn't prevent some power lists but it was an interesting way to add variety.

How about instead of 0-1 thunderwolf calvary, we limit to one razorback.

And for guard 0-1 chimera

That way we can do away with the real cheeze in these lists.

Gornall wrote:I played in a small local tourny that was called Tale of Two armies. Basically you brought two 1000 point lists from the same codex but you could only take a unit in one of the lists (exeption: troops). So you could take long fangs in one list but not the other. At the start of each game your opponent would select the list you would have to use. Still doesn't prevent some power lists but it was an interesting way to add variety.

So, like kinda like Warmachine?