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What happens if you have a twin-linked assault cannon, for example the side-by-side ones found on a land raider, and only one of the ass. cannons has LOS? Is it still twin-linked? Can it shoot at all?

It can still shoot - you only need to trave LOS along the barrel, no requirement to be able to do so from ALL of the barrel.

You can shoot and they will be twin linked. The target will be in cover, even if one side sees it in plain sight.

You check LoS for each weapon as if it were a single model firing. The TL-assault cannon consists of two weapons, just check for them separately (BRB pg. 59 right side).

The TL assault canon is ONE weapon system, otherwise a weapon destroyed result would remove only one cannon.

A TL weapon counts as one weapon for game purposes.

The vehicle LOS rules fail to account for weapons with more than one barrel. If one has LOS and the other is blocked, I agree that a cover save is appropriate. I've had this happen in a couple of games recently.

WHich makes typhoon speeders potentially awkward, as they have 2 "luanchers" quite a distance apart from each other, and no barrel...

nosferatu1001 wrote:The TL assault canon is ONE weapon system, otherwise a weapon destroyed result would remove only one cannon.

It still has two weapon mountings, and you'd still have to check each one. Plus it is actually really easy to figure out that way.

Jidmah wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The TL assault canon is ONE weapon system, otherwise a weapon destroyed result would remove only one cannon.

It still has two weapon mountings, and you'd still have to check each one. Plus it is actually really easy to figure out that way.

No it doesn't, please quote where it says that a twin-linked weapon counts as two weapons?

A TL assault cannon is not the same as 2 assault cannons. It has 1 weapon mounting, the 1 weapon is a TL assault cannon.
In the same manner as a model armed with a twin-linked bolter/shoota does not count as having 2 bolters/shootas.

Leigen_Zero wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The TL assault canon is ONE weapon system, otherwise a weapon destroyed result would remove only one cannon.

It still has two weapon mountings, and you'd still have to check each one. Plus it is actually really easy to figure out that way.

No it doesn't, please quote where it says that a twin-linked weapon counts as two weapons?

A TL assault cannon is not the same as 2 assault cannons. It has 1 weapon mounting, the 1 weapon is a TL assault cannon.
In the same manner as a model armed with a twin-linked bolter/shoota does not count as having 2 bolters/shootas.

"When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against against the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons' mounting along its barrel, so see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models." (BRB pg. 58)

"A set of twin linked weapons count as single weapon of that type, [...]" (BRB pg. 31)

While those two weapons count as single weapon, they often have two mountings and barrels, while some have not. Best example that comes to my mind is an eldar wave serpent. The two guns are completely separated and mounted on opposing sides of the turrent, and obviously have different barrels. The predator lascannon, on the other hand, has only one mounting, so no need for any special rules there. Non-vehicles are irrelevant, as they do not trace LoS from weapons.

Pg. 58 tells us to check each mounting and barrel, but it does not tell us how to handle it for twin-linked weapons. So ignore the twin-linked part, as it's not defined and simply fall back to the more general rule of each being a separate weapon, just for the means of tracing LoS.
The alternative would be not being able to ever draw LoS from a separated TL weapon, and thus never be able to shoot anything. You may not shoot units you can not draw line of sight to.

well, there shouldn't be a problem with Typhoons as they should be a far enough distance away to not be giving a cover save from it's own hull.

The problem with Typhoons is when they try to peek around the corner of a building or other large object (hill, Landraider).

I think this issue is not limited to twin linked weapons. Regular models have 2 eyes, and we are told to trace LOS from their eyes. If half the model is obscured, thus 1 eye is obscured, then this twin linked weapon situation would be identical I would think, in that half of what we are supposed to check LOS from is obscured but the other half is not.

I see 2 solutions.

First, tracing LOS from either eye/barrel is fine. Thus if one eye/barrel is obscured, but the other one is not, then just use the other one and have clear LOS. Thus that one model/weapon system would not count as granting cover.

Second, treat each eye/weapon as one half of the equasion. If either one is obscured, then that is 50%, and an enemy gets cover when 50% is obscured. Thus, that one model/weapon system would count as granting cover. If 50% of the models in a unit/weapons on a vehicle would grant cover, then the unit has cover, like normal.

Thoughts as to either the first or second ruling being the correct one?

We've house ruled this in the past that you lose the twin-linking, but no cover save if the barrel/launcher has a completely clear LOS. It's just a house rule, but it makes sense to us. It'd say in a game outside of our group either ignore the fact that one barrel is blocked, or give a 4+ cover save for obscurement.

The first or second is the correct one - all you are asked is to trace LOS from the barrel. If you have 2 barrels then tracing LOS from either is fine.

You are asked to trace from each weapon mounting, not just either one, nos.

There's too much to read here to find out what's already been said, so I'mma burst on the scene with my point of view.

Definition of TLOS:
The weapon can see its target, if the player sees as if peering from the 'eyes' of the weapon/model.

Agreed?

You can peer through one of the eyes of the assault cannon.

Definition of TL
So much ammo shot out that it's neigh impossible to miss.

Doesn't necessarially mean that the other weapon will hit. Just the added firepower from the other assault cannon means that the target willl be unable to evade as well.

Definition of TLOSFTL
True line of sight for twin linked weapons:
Take your idea here.
What is easiest and will get the game moving sooner...
A: Arguing about the way in which it will be played
B: Just treating it as if both weapons have LOS. because noone cares that much.

I'm choosing B.
Anyone who ever chooses A should be skinned alive.

Speed, whatever makes the game take less time.

As much as we wanna waste time on warhammer, we don't want to waste time on rules queries.

Also, too many rules queries means I don't get my turn.

Jidmah wrote:You are asked to trace from each weapon mounting, not just either one, nos.

Which you have done, as you have ONE WEAPON. Once you have traced LOS from the mounting, you have complied.

No cover save, shoot as normal.

What about a Hurricane Bolter? 1 weapon (consisting of 3 twin linked bolt guns) that could potentially peek 1 twin linked boltgun over a wall while the other two are behind the wall completely.

zeshin wrote:What about a Hurricane Bolter? 1 weapon (consisting of 3 twin linked bolt guns) that could potentially peek 1 twin linked boltgun over a wall while the other two are behind the wall completely.

You would be fine to fire without giving cover, it's one weapon pick your favorite barrel to measure from and go to town. Nothing says you need to check more than one barrel to test for LoS and a hurricane bolter is only a single weapon.

Scipio Africanus wrote:There's too much to read here to find out what's already been said,

Seriously? The threads not even a full page yet.

A cover save,seriously ? Its one weapon,if it has line of sight,it can shoot as normal.

No cover save ^^ hydras, hurricane bolters, Typhoon speeders hooray froTL weapons counting as a single weapon

Hurricane bolters on a Land Raider are a great example of the issue. The bottom pair of bolters is about 1 cm off the ground. It can't draw line of site to gak.

I'd say that if you can't draw line of sight for one of them, the target should have a 4+ cover save, since if one of the barrels has something in front of it, half the shots will miss anyway.

Wouldn't the shooting vehicle simply move to uncover its weapons?

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:I'd say that if you can't draw line of sight for one of them, the target should have a 4+ cover save, since if one of the barrels has something in front of it, half the shots will miss anyway.

THat is not a position supported by the rules.

All you need to do is draw LOS from A barrel on a single weapon. If you can do so and it is unobstructed, you do not give a cover save from that weapon

nosferatu1001 wrote:Which you have done, as you have ONE WEAPON. Once you have traced LOS from the mounting, you have complied.

No cover save, shoot as normal.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1090071

The weapon on this vehicle very obviously has two weapon mountings, ie. the points where barrels are mounted.

Jidmah wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Which you have done, as you have ONE WEAPON. Once you have traced LOS from the mounting, you have complied.

No cover save, shoot as normal.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1090071

The weapon on this vehicle very obviously has two weapon mountings, ie. the points where barrels are mounted.

Doesn't matter, the rules say that a TL weapon is a single weapon and thus you only need to measure from a single barrel to determine LoS. Note that the rules specifically say mounting and barrel singularly meaning that for any weapon you simply measure from one mounting and one barrel regardless of the number of mountings or barrels that make up the weapon.

Point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel...

Vehicle Weapons & Line of Sight, p58

IMO, norade and Nos (unusually) are incorrect.

The weapon counts as one weapon, but clearly has two barrels. The rules for tracing LOS down the "barrel" do not account for this possibility. Nothing in the rules gives us guidance to indicate whether we can legitimately just pick one.

IMO the more appropriate way to do it is to think of it like two firing models or two firing weapons; if half or more of them have an obscured shot, then the shot/s count as obscured. This is essentially a house rule, but as the rules do NOT cover the eventuality of a weapon having two barrels, you have to come up with some kind of patch no matter what you do.

Scipio Africanus wrote:What is easiest and will get the game moving sooner...
A: Arguing about the way in which it will be played
B: Just treating it as if both weapons have LOS. because noone cares that much.

I'm choosing B.
Anyone who ever chooses A should be skinned alive.

Speed, whatever makes the game take less time.

As much as we wanna waste time on warhammer, we don't want to waste time on rules queries.

Also, too many rules queries means I don't get my turn.

Argument fail. We're not arguing about it at the table. The whole point of this forum is so we can educate ourselves on the rules AWAY from the table so that we don't waste time AT the table*. If we pretend that a discussion isn't worth having here, then we leave ourselves open to not understanding the issue and having to debate it longer at the table. So really your rationale is entirely backwards. Also, people who propose that others who debate rules should be skinned alive, while themselves debating a rule in a forum dedicated to debating rules, look kind of silly and foolish.

To quote another poster's sig:

Look at your comment. Back to mine. Back to yours NOW BACK TO MINE. Sadly, it isn't mine. But if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate crap it could LOOK like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through comments, finding the ones that your comment could look like. Back at mine, what is it? It's a highly effective counter-troll. Look again, MY COMMENT IS NOW DIAMONDS.

Anything is possible when you think before you comment or post.

I'm on a computer.

*: Also, just to amuse ourselves/pass time on the internet talking about the hobby we love.

Yet it is only one model. And as such as long as you can fulfil the rule (trace LOS) you have fulfilled the rule.

The rules do not explicitly cover this, but they dont really need to.