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Hey guys
After playing Dawn of war retribution a particular scene really made me question the Eldar's self deceptive elitism, When they see a mortally wounded space marine commander and they casually remark "From his livery he looks like one of there leaders, still he is just one of the monkeys". Do the Eldar not realize how superior space marines are both physically, mentally and spiritually to a normal human and even the Eldar in some respects ?. I was under the impression that the Eldar had a certain level of fear and respect for Space marines, seeing them as something akin to the children of the emperor ?. Or are they literally just that blindly ignorant that they see 8 foot tall gene forged warriors wearing power armor , that can chew through metal for sustenance, spit acid, recover from seemingly mortal wounds instantly, relive the memories of the dead by eating there flesh, go without sleep for weeks on end, have perfect recall and in some cases incredible psychic potential as the same as normal humans ?. I dont think its apt to even call a space marine a human I thought they'd come with some kind of cryptic colloquial term like the scions of the emperor.
Anyways fluff and opinions appreciated as always .
C-3

Pawns to use as tools.

Simple as that. They may be smarter than the average human, but to an Eldar, they are as smart as an amoeba.

They don't look at the brute strength of an Ork warboss and have more respect for it. Why should it matter for the brute strength of a gene enhanced human?

At the end of the day, its still a human, with the perspective, wisdom, and style of thinking thereof, without any new culture or mental complexity.

The Eldar have always looked down upon the Marines even though they are enhanced. Eldar never seem to anyone in high regard except for themselves. I would have to say they think of Space Marines as below them, but above some other races if anything.

Chowderhead wrote:Pawns to use as tools.

Simple as that. They may be smarter than the average human, but to an Eldar, they are as smart as an amoeba.

Hmm i think thats over simplifying it a little, I always felt that yes the Eldar do vew Humanity as pawns and that a million humans aren't worth the life of a single Eldar but they do see humanity as an important buffer to be used against other threats. I believe they also truely realise how dangerous humanity is both in its ignorance and its capacity for violence and retribution, They do think humans to be greedy, and barbaric, however any eldar who questions the danger humanity, let alone a space marine represents is a deluded fool. If it werent for the fact that there are other more serious threats, and that the eldar keep to deep space in their craftworlds, the IoM would have had them exterminated long ago. I dont think the Eldar question the itelligence of space marines but they may well question their wisdom, its important not to get knowledge and inteligence mixed up.

Eldar are rightly aware of their martial prowess, see path of the warrior for details therein. However humanity as a whole, impressive genetic manipulation or not, still register very low on an eldar's scale of quality. For a race that is eons older than humanity, let alone the last 10 millennia under the emperor, our sense of modernity and achievement pales when you consider what they had achieved. This, tempered with the fact they lost all of it because of their own pride and lack of self control would leave them even less likely to acknowledge any lacking of their own versus that of any of the younger races.

Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.

I have a feeling the whole, 'I think that star should be destroyed' "KA-BOOM" was what you called a figure of speech.

If any race had that kind of power, the Necrontyr and the Old Ones would have trashed the galaxy a long time ago.

The eldar don't respect the human race at all. They recognize that Space Marines are stronger and better than the average human, but they still think of them as inferior anyways.

Red Comet wrote:The Eldar have always looked down upon the Marines even though they are enhanced. Eldar never seem to anyone in high regard except for themselves.

This IMHO is wrong, they have high regard for many races, especially tau as they fight for a greater good and have not been corrupted by chaos at all. They even respect orks to an extent; in the ork codex their is this quote by Uthan, an Eldar Philosopher:

"The orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won.They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is stong, and despise it as crude."

Surely this shows that the eldar don;t even hold themselves in high regard as they realise they have made grave mistakes that have led to them failing, they will admit that it was they who inadvertantly created slaanesh and they are a dieing race.

Although the Eldar don't see other races as perfect and better than the eldar, they certainly don't hold only themselves in high regard, they hold no one in high regard instead realising the mistakes that all have made, especially including themselves. Hpwever, it is true that the eldar see a lot of mistakes in the imperium, probably more than they see in themsleves so you're right when you say that the eldar look down on marines as the eldar see the imperium as the galaxy's new chance, but they have made all the same mistakes as the eldar made before them and many worse mistakes such as: Horus Heresy, now they all support one god, who would be surprised if they accidentally created another chaos god, they're extremely corruptible, half of the imperium turned to chaos just like many eldar turned to dark eldar and the imperium won't admit when they made a mistake and there is a lot more infighting and politics which eldar didn't have. So, eldar probably see the human race on par with the necrons and tyranids.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.

Fair enough. But give me the name of one Eldar that has held this kind of psychic power during the past 10 000 years. The Eldars are dying. They are surviving only because they hide in the most remote planets of the galaxy or live in errant craftworlds.

Actually, if it was not for the IoM, the eldars would have all been crushed ages ago. But, fortunately for the eldars, their so-called bravery and honor doesn't prevent them from using the IoM as a buffer against chaos and aggressive xenos.




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tantan628 wrote:

This IMHO is wrong, they have high regard for many races, especially tau as they fight for a greater good and have not been corrupted by chaos at all. They even respect orks to an extent; in the ork codex their is this quote by Uthan, an Eldar Philosopher:

"The orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won.They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is stong, and despise it as crude."

This is a good point, but Ulthan was an eccentric, a philosopher. I don't think his sayings reflect the opinions of the majority of the eldars.

The smartest, strongest and most intelligent ant remains, painful in it's limitations, just an ant.












Also, Ulthan was called 'the perverse' by his peers...

tantan628 wrote:
in the ork codex their is this quote by Uthan, an Eldar Philosopher:

I believe that he was labelled "the Perverse". He certainly does not seem to represent the majority of the Eldar species. Eldar are characteristically arrogant and disparaging of other species', and in most of the background I've seen they seem to think themselves superior. Especially Biel-tan, if I recall correctly.

Ah, too late.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The smartest, strongest and most intelligent ant remains, painful in it's limitations, just an ant.












Also, Ulthan was called 'the perverse' by his peers...

Wasnt that a quote from watchmen "The worlds smartest man poses as much of a threat to me as the worlds smartest ant"

Space Marine may be able to take many Eldar 1 on 1 but it's due to brute strength, savagery, and endurance. Same reason many Orks can take Eldar 1 on 1 too, and the Eldar certainly don't view the Orks as anything more than savages.

Reanimator wrote:Eldar are rightly aware of their martial prowess, see path of the warrior for details therein. However humanity as a whole, impressive genetic manipulation or not, still register very low on an eldar's scale of quality. For a race that is eons older than humanity, let alone the last 10 millennia under the emperor, our sense of modernity and achievement pales when you consider what they had achieved. This, tempered with the fact they lost all of it because of their own pride and lack of self control would leave them even less likely to acknowledge any lacking of their own versus that of any of the younger races.

I thought they'd at least on some level respect the martial prowess and dedication space marines have to there god, especially because of the path of the warrior thing. I suppose an even more important question would be that whilst admittedly they dont see the emperor as a warp god but do they at least respect his power / vision or do they just see him as king of the monkeys ?.


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Harriticus wrote:Space Marine may be able to take many Eldar 1 on 1 but it's due to brute strength, savagery, and endurance. Same reason many Orks can take Eldar 1 on 1 too, and the Eldar certainly don't view the Orks as anything more than savages.

A space marine isnt a savage they possess genius levels of intellect and have split second reaction times, and are all supreme battle tacticians in there own right able to take out massive armies through superior tactics. A chapter as powerful as they are collectively couldnt defeat a planets worth of insurgents through simple brutality, they dont have the same mindset or numbers of orks.

Ketara wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.

I have a feeling the whole, 'I think that star should be destroyed' "KA-BOOM" was what you called a figure of speech.

If any race had that kind of power, the Necrontyr and the Old Ones would have trashed the galaxy a long time ago.

Nope, it wasn't a figure of speech. They really had that kind of power.

On the back of the Eldar codex it states " The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, and yet you still dare oppose our will"

Farseer Mirehn Biellann said that.

Also from the Dark Eldar codex it states this when talking about the kabal of the dying sun:

"The kabal's wild claims that they retain the ability to extinguish stars are infamous, though their rivals have never quite managed to explain the deterioration of the sun Echillos during the Aleuthan Persecution."

Sounds to me like it's more than a figure of speech. Sounds more like they actually did have that power.

Also, in codex Eldar it states this on page 3:

"These are the Eldar, a race that is all but extinct, the last remnants of a people whose mere dreams once overturned worlds and quenched suns"

Yes but they still don't think in the same way eldar do, SM may be smarter than normal humans but they still think on a human level.

Eldar think on many more levels than any human (aside from maybe the emperor). The way they experience the world around them is alien to us, they are far more aware than we are. Their souls are very powerful whereas the SMs have human souls.

I think they respected the emperor but didn't expect him to suceed due to the fact that he was trying to help a species they saw as flawed.

It's the same way humans view animals as inferior- They may be as effective as us but we experience the world in much more detail and while all animals think humans do it on a much deeper level. Eldar view us in the same way.

ChronoCupcake wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The smartest, strongest and most intelligent ant remains, painful in it's limitations, just an ant.












Also, Ulthan was called 'the perverse' by his peers...

Wasnt that a quote from watchmen "The worlds smartest man poses as much of a threat to me as the worlds smartest ant"

Hmm, possible I might have channelled it, but I was actually thinking of babylon 5 and G'kar describing the First Ones to that cute Japanese lass that Sinclair was boffing.

ChronoCupcake wrote:

A space marine isnt a savage they possess genius levels of intellect and have split second reaction times, and are all supreme battle tacticians in there own right able to take out massive armies through superior tactics. A chapter as powerful as they are collectively couldnt defeat a planets worth of insurgents through simple brutality, they dont have the same mindset or numbers of orks.

It's savage compared to the Eldar intellect.

That being said there is a certain savagery to the Space Marines. Yes they're smarter then the average humans and are hardly orks, but they live for battle and without war they wouldn't know what to do with themselves. I maintain that if the Imperium were finally at peace, we'd have a large-scale Astartes revolt in no time.

Laodamia wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldar used to be able to think about a star being snuffed out and it would happen. There isn't a single human in existence than can do that. Not even the Emperor. Why would they even give a thought to humans? To the Eldar mind humans are simply a plague on the galaxy similar to the way the Imperium thinks of Orks.

Fair enough. But give me the name of one Eldar that has held this kind of psychic power during the past 10 000 years. The Eldars are dying. They are surviving only because they hide in the most remote planets of the galaxy or live in errant craftworlds.

Actually, if it was not for the IoM, the eldars would have all been crushed ages ago. But, fortunately for the eldars, their so-called bravery and honor doesn't prevent them from using the IoM as a buffer against chaos and aggressive xenos.

There is no proof that all of the Eldar would have been crushed ages ago if it were not for the Imperium. I believe what you are referring to is the Interrogation of captured Eldar Ranger Prisoner 28264 Prisoner Awaiting Termination in the part about Eldrad in the 3rd edition Eldar Codex.

It says that ten thousand Eldar lives would have been lost if they had not directed Ghazkhull to Armageddon. Ten thousand Eldar is hardly the entire race.

Also, what the Eldar think of every race is also stated in that interrogation. Basically, they think of them as tools, eventually to be exterminated.


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tantan628 wrote:

This IMHO is wrong, they have high regard for many races, especially tau as they fight for a greater good and have not been corrupted by chaos at all. They even respect orks to an extent; in the ork codex their is this quote by Uthan, an Eldar Philosopher:

"The orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won.They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is stong, and despise it as crude."

This is a good point, but Ulthan was an eccentric, a philosopher. I don't think his sayings reflect the opinions of the majority of the eldars.

Harriticus wrote:

ChronoCupcake wrote:

A space marine isnt a savage they possess genius levels of intellect and have split second reaction times, and are all supreme battle tacticians in there own right able to take out massive armies through superior tactics. A chapter as powerful as they are collectively couldnt defeat a planets worth of insurgents through simple brutality, they dont have the same mindset or numbers of orks.

It's savage compared to the Eldar intellect.

That being said there is a certain savagery to the Space Marines. Yes they're smarter then the average humans and are hardly orks, but they live for battle and without war they wouldn't know what to do with themselves. I maintain that if the Imperium were finally at peace, we'd have a large-scale Astartes revolt in no time.

Reminds me of the Garro audiobooks were it mentions how the astartes fight for the day that they can lay down there weapons and reveal in the work of there great forbearer's, that being said I imagine the astartes individual would take positions of political and social power in society perhaps as planetary governors or head of sectors ?. Even if there was peace theyd still be enemies that would need to be pacified i.e orks who might conceivably be contained but never truly wiped out. I can imagine if peace did finally come about, humanity would focus its efforts on genetic engineering to attempt to make the entire human race as biologically advanced as the astarte's wasnt that one of the emperors goals ?.

Eldar probably view them as being intellectually the same as humans, but should either be feared or respected because their they are much more dangerous when angered.

the Eldar view them as little better then Humans, but they still fear the Angels of Death for their power.

only the Astartes can match the Eldar in martial prowess. this is aided by their incredible durability compared to the Eldar.



the Eldar do view Space Marines as more useful pawns. a Farseer could approach a Space Marine chapter and at have his message heard. Space Marines will listin to the Eldar, even if they don't trust them, only a fool would ignore the word of a Farseer. in contrast, a Eldar wouldn't stand a chance of talking to IG, unless an Inquisitor is present.


the Imperium's higher ups are willing to listin to the Eldar, but the lower forces won't listin. the Eldar know this.

It depends on the craftworld really. Some craftworlds such as Ulthwé recognise that space marines are a strong ally against chaos, I believe the main craftworld in the Eldar campaign in Dawn of War 2 Retribution is Iyanden. Iyanden has lost most of its population and so would value the remaining lives higher than any mere human.
In general, Eldar see themselves as superior to humans from their technology and intelligence, but some craftworlds recognise the space marine strength.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:]

Nope, it wasn't a figure of speech. They really had that kind of power.

On the back of the Eldar codex it states " The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, and yet you still dare oppose our will"

Farseer Mirehn Biellann said that.

That does sound like hyperbole to me. Trash talk, that sort of thing. I mean, the Eldar may well have had the technology to do such things, and as such could order a star to be destroyed, but I don't think it was actually through psychic might or anything. The Eldar Codex quote, that I think is likely to be a figure of speech.

Eldar are afraid of Human Inquisition. As we can see that in their response from hearing the news about Exterminatus.
Some of them respect the Space Marines ( like Ulthwe and Biel-Tan ). Other's think of them like monkeys ( big mistake ).

"The Astartes? Not but overgrown apes sporting crude weapons and armor. They lack the grace and wisdom of the Eldar. To us, they are deformed monsters, creatures formed in mon'keigh labs in an effort to overcome the frailties of Man. A noble, but ultimately futile pursuit. Their armor makes them slow, easy prey for the Banshee and the Scorpion. Their brutality makes them predictable, simple for the Seer to snip their threads with a thought. Their vehicles are cumbersome, no match for a Brightlance or Starcannon. Who are they to such as we? We have fought Chaos before their hopeless race crawled out of the sea."

The Eldar do not see mankind as monkeys (I don't think they even have a concept for what these creatures are, or what sort of insult it might be to a human to compare the two species), they call mankind (and many other races) Mon-Keigh, which means Must-Be-Killed.
That about sums up what they feel towards humans.

Having a fear or recognition for martial prowess also does not mean they have respect for it, for to the Eldar the motives are more important than the means. I have no doubt that the Eldar see the Astarte motives for fighting as just about as misguided as those of the chaos space marines. Worship in a human deified isn't exactly going to look good on the resumé when reviewed by an enlightened peer, after all.

Eldar and "inferior" Space Marines: