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4d6 or 3+4d6 for armor penetration?

Searched, couldn't find anything recent.

3+4d6; Sniper weapons count as S3 vs vehicles as a base, and Rend on any "6" rolled on any Dice(that means you could get 1-4 extra d3)

Armor Penetration is the Roll to see if you ... penetrate Armor, this is added to your weapon's base S(3 for sniper weapons, BRB page 31)

Well that answers that.

So... each of the 4d6 that gets a 6 gets an extra d3? Wow.

Yeah but you only need 1, really.

Unless you roll 3 "1s" and 1 "6"

No. Raw is that it has an armour penetration of 4D6. In other words, you roll 4D6 with no other modifiers. No rending, no strength. Just 4D6.

I think rending still applies becuase it is still a sniper rifle. It's also Ap 1 so anything rolled is +1

Fafnir wrote:No. Raw is that it has an armour penetration of 4D6. In other words, you roll 4D6 with no other modifiers. No rending, no strength. Just 4D6.

looking at it a little closer, i will give you no s3; but rending will definitely apply as you are still rolling "Armor penetration" and any armor penetration roll of 6(4 chances) grants a d3.

Looking at the witch hunters FAQ and my witch hunter codex, the old vindicare turbo penetrator "Has an Armour Penetration value of 3D6". and +3strength was included in the FAQ ruling on how it worked.

The same FAQ also shows that rending still applies as well.

the new one "Has an Armour Penetration of 4D6". I don't see any reason for them to change their minds on it now.

It doesn't matter what the old FAQ says, this is a new codex. Until it is FAQ'd, RAW states that you always and only ever roll 4D6 with no other modifiers (monoliths are another issue entirely).

Fafnir wrote:It doesn't matter what the old FAQ says, this is a new codex. Until it is FAQ'd, RAW states that you always and only ever roll 4D6 with no other modifiers (monoliths are another issue entirely).

no it doesn't; RAW says that you roll 4d6 for penetration and any roll of 6 on penetration grants a d3(which would be a modifier).

Witch hunter FAQ does not hold any bearing on this conversation though as that is an entirely different Vindicare, with an entirely different turbo-penetrator in an entirely different Codex. Much like how BT Drop pods are still BS2 while all other Drop pods are BS4(even DA, who got theirs changed via FAQ)

Fafnir wrote:It doesn't matter what the old FAQ says, this is a new codex. Until it is FAQ'd, RAW states that you always and only ever roll 4D6 with no other modifiers (monoliths are another issue entirely).

It specifically states 4d6, which overrides the 3+d6 part. This does not remove the fact that it also has rending. 4d6+rending.

I simply brought up the witch hunters FAQ because the only difference between their turbo pen rounds is a 4 in place of a 3.

It still gets the Strength 3 in addition to the 4D6. Remember, armor penetration and strength are two very different, mutually exclusive things. The rulebook states you get your strength plus armor penetration. THe Vindicare's turbo penetrator modifies the number of dice for the armor penetration only. It does not say to discard the strength 3.

If you still insist 4D6 only is correct I will direct you to the rules for the eviserator in the GK codex. It states it has an armor penetration of 2D6. Would you be willing to tell some one that his tank-hunting weapon is actually WORSE because of it's special rules?

Wow, this will definitely be in the FAQ.

Guess I will have to discuss with opponent for now.

cuda1179 wrote:It still gets the Strength 3 in addition to the 4D6. Remember, armor penetration and strength are two very different, mutually exclusive things. The rulebook states you get your strength plus armor penetration. THe Vindicare's turbo penetrator modifies the number of dice for the armor penetration only. It does not say to discard the strength 3.

If you still insist 4D6 only is correct I will direct you to the rules for the eviserator in the GK codex. It states it has an armor penetration of 2D6. Would you be willing to tell some one that his tank-hunting weapon is actually WORSE because of it's special rules?

I really just want to take the GK codex out in the street and put it down like the Dog it is.

Armor penetration per the BRB is the S+1d6; all weapons prior to the GK codex(including IG eviserators/termie chainfists) add an additional D6 to armor Penetration.

Then the GK codex comes along and Specifies their weapons to Deal xd6 for armor penetration. Yes this means S is not added; they are not dealing extra d6, and they are not dealing S+xD6, thay are just dealing xD6.

I swear Ward finalized this thing in about 1 hour prior to printing after a 3-day bender of booze and hard drugs.

Your right it does have an armor penetration of 4d6 but it also has a weapon type of sniper and the brb tells us that sniper weapons are str 3 against vehicles and rending. Nowhere in the rule for the Turbo-Penetrator shot is there anything to discount the sniper classification and bonuses.

Once again, the specific rule overrides the generic rule.

bwraith12 wrote:Your right it does have an armor penetration of 4d6 but it also has a weapon type of sniper and the brb tells us that sniper weapons are str 3 against vehicles and rending. Nowhere in the rule for the Turbo-Penetrator shot is there anything to discount the sniper classification and bonuses.

You may want to cross reference the Armor penetration rules again, page 60 of the brb.

Armor penetration is S+1d6; all instances prior to the GK codex has the weapons adding a d6; even MCs ad a d6, and then give you the example/clarification of 2d6+Strength(page 51 of the BRB) All the grenades give you a flat Armor Penetration roll of Value+xd6.

The GK codex does not do this, they give you a flat Armor Penetration value of xD6; the GK Eviserator is just 2d6. The turbo-penetrator is 4D6+rending(because it is still weapon type: Sniper; Which has rending).

Sniper weapons are S3 for regular Armor penetration, but turbo-penetrator rounds do not do regular Armor penetration; they will still get the rending bonus d3 on any/all 6s though.

solles wrote:Looking at the witch hunters FAQ and my witch hunter codex, the old vindicare turbo penetrator "Has an Armour Penetration value of 3D6". and +3strength was included in the FAQ ruling on how it worked.

The same FAQ also shows that rending still applies as well.

the new one "Has an Armour Penetration of 4D6". I don't see any reason for them to change their minds on it now.

This.

I'm pretty sure an FAQ will say the same.
The wording between the GK and WH codex is the same other than the placement of a 4 instead of a three.
I don't see how the FAQ won't say S3 and Rending are added based on this previous FAQ. Saying "But this is a new codex" is kind of an odd point, as it's an old codex, but it's the same exact rule.
That's my two cents though, but who knows, according to the DE FAQ following logic and reason based on previous FAQs is never a reliable source.

When dealing with rules we as a community generally go with specific over general. You are making an assumption that the strength is not included because it says 4d6 for armor pen but in the brb it says that when you roll for armor pen you get your str+1d6 for your pen value. The grey knight codex specifically states that you get to roll 4d6 for armor pen but no where in the codex does it override the str that the brb states that you get with the roll of an armor pen. Your monstrous creature example further shows that you can go above +1d6 armor pen and still get your str bonus and from my knowledge there is nowwhere in the brb book that says you do not get your str bonus on an armor pen on anything that has a str value.


Also saying that the witch hunters official fact has no bearing is incorrect, though it may be a completely different vindicare with different turbo penetrator rounds it still sets the precedent that a weapon that goes above 2d6 pen still gets its str value added to the pen unless it specifically states it does not.

Fafnir wrote:It doesn't matter what the old FAQ says, this is a new codex. Until it is FAQ'd, RAW states that you always and only ever roll 4D6 with no other modifiers (monoliths are another issue entirely).

No, RAW states that it has the Sniper rule and that gives it ST 3.

To clarify for OP.

Yes you get Str 3
Yes you get Rending
Yes your get 4d6 also.

I hope no one minds me going off topic a bit here.

But if it is just 4d6 and that is the strength of the shot then surely you do get the full 4 against a monolith?

No, that isnt the strength of the shot, it its the addtional dice for armour penetration

It gets S3+4D6+ rend on any and all 6s.

taylor048 wrote:I hope no one minds me going off topic a bit here.

But if it is just 4d6 and that is the strength of the shot then surely you do get the full 4 against a monolith?

if people won't give him his Str3 and rending, then he should get the 4 against the monolith.


opponents of Str3+4d6+rending, choose your poison

I was fully prepared to quote every where that details Armor penetration; and all forms of bonus D6 form armor penetration to show that they all said +xD6.

Then I got to the first entry of the First Codex I was going to use to prove my point(Unfortunately after having quoted every instance in the BRB, in full): Codex Space Marines, the Chainfist. Wording is exactly the same as Turbo-penetrator and Eviscerator: "rolls 2d6 for armor penetration".

We have been using the Chainfist for several years now applying S8+2d6 for Penetration; Why should we stop adding S to the weapons now?

I relent, and revert back to my very first post.

Yeah, I said the same thing about the eviserator about 6 posts ago. Seems all the "Only 4D6" guys seem to be ignoring it and sticking their heads in the sand.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, that isnt the strength of the shot, it its the addtional dice for armour penetration

It gets S3+4D6+ rend on any and all 6s.

What Nos said, except when shooting against a vehicle that reduces additional penetration die (monolith, wave serpant), in which case it would be S3+1D6.

cuda1179 wrote:Yeah, I said the same thing about the eviserator about 6 posts ago. Seems all the "Only 4D6" guys seem to be ignoring it and sticking their heads in the sand.

When I was still a proponent of 4d6 only I addressed that, even pointed out the the IG Eviscerator specifies that it adds an additional d6 to armor penetration vs the GK eviscerator that simply calls for 2d6 armor penetration(same as the C:SM Chainfist) and added ist to the worthless weapons for Penetration.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I Codex Space Marines, the Chainfist. Wording is exactly the same as Turbo-penetrator and Eviscerator: "rolls 2d6 for armor penetration".

The wording isn't the samel.

"A chainfist is treated exactly as a power fist, but rolls 2D6 for its armour penetration."