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After reviewing an old Eldar codex I found and the most recent one, as well as looking at the new releases from forge world for Eldar. I've come to a conclusion... GW does not know what to do with Eldar.

I am posting this, and I would like the rest of you to take a serious look at the issue also, and tell me what you think. I honestly can't see a defined direction, theme or for that matter any cohesion to the dirty Xenos. Their shooting isn't the best. Their cc fails against anything designed for cc. Their psychic powers are mostly a joke. They are no where near the fastest army now. I can't see where they are trying to go with them!

The most recent cause I have to say this is based on the FW new release stuff for Eldar. Almost none of that stuff looks like it had more than 15min of thought put into it! Those corsairs are a joke! When I think Eldar corsair I picture a mix between Eldar rangers and barbary/arabic style pirates. Not dragonfly guardians!

In all seriousness I think the boys at GW should go talk to their fantasy dept. co-workers and get some ideas from the High elf and Dark elf designers. Eldar have potential, their background and fluff provide limitless possiblity, this could easily be represented on the table top! But no GW is instead too busy writting their 800th marine codex and working on another price hike!

Maybe those problem will be fixed, you know, when they write a codex for the current edition of the game.

Commissar Rant wrote: After reviewing an old Eldar codex I found and the most recent one, as well as looking at the new releases from forge world for Eldar. I've come to a conclusion... GW does not know what to do with Eldar.

I am posting this, and I would like the rest of you to take a serious look at the issue also, and tell me what you think. I honestly can't see a defined direction, theme or for that matter any cohesion to the dirty Xenos. Their shooting isn't the best. Their cc fails against anything designed for cc. Their psychic powers are mostly a joke. They are no where near the fastest army now. I can't see where they are trying to go with them!

None of these are an issue with the Eldar themselves, rather it's what happened to all the other armies, especially in regards to Psychic Powers. They've never been the outright shootiest or choppiest. They've never been able to engage heavy CC units head to head with their own. What they had was speed, high effectiveness in gaining local superiority over their opponents and making a significant portion of an opponents army unable to effectively engage, and the ability to abuse the everloving crap out of the core rules. Remember Eldar in 4E? Utterly broken with the old LoS/assault/skimmer rules. Skimmers you couldn't kill and often would never get a chance to shoot at due to the LoS rules, harlequins that would consolidate up entire armies lines after disembarking turn two having faced almost no threatening fire, etc.

The core rules have changed, the Eldar codex has not yet been updated to follow. Other armies have changed and Eldar are not as effective in comparison. This will change.

The most recent cause I have to say this is based on the FW new release stuff for Eldar. Almost none of that stuff looks like it had more than 15min of thought put into it! Those corsairs are a joke! When I think Eldar corsair I picture a mix between Eldar rangers and barbary/arabic style pirates. Not dragonfly guardians!

So, because they choose to go a more creative route that isn't simply a copy of a historical counterpart that you find better, it's obviously a joke?

In all seriousness I think the boys at GW should go talk to their fantasy dept. co-workers and get some ideas from the High elf and Dark elf designers. Eldar have potential, their background and fluff provide limitless possiblity, this could easily be represented on the table top! But no GW is instead too busy writting their 800th marine codex and working on another price hike!

The problem with Eldar is not a problem of direction or design, it's a problem of age, and one that quite frankly isn't as bad as others have had.

Seriously, calling Eldar psychic powers "bad" is just bovine gak. Fortune and doom are still probably two of the five best psychic powers in the game, providing amazing support for an Eldar army.

The current Eldar codex is an old 4th edition codex, and it was pretty much a copy paste (+ Harlies) of the 3rd edition codex.They didn't really put in new effort in from a design perspective, so its not surprising at all to see it completely outclassed by the 5th edition ones (which is when the Design team finally got a swift kick and started producing some quality). Forgeworld are unfortunately pretty much stuck to following the same rules design ethos of the codex they are working on extending, for one thing they don't really have the playtest team and other such resources you need to get working high quality rules. They are also well established as being a subservient company to GW, so probably aren't allowed to experiment with new rules for things to prevent them treading on what is considered the GW Design Team territory.

Considering the amount of effort that was put in to the Dark Eldar release I have no doubt that the next Eldar codex will blow current one completely out of the water. Quite a bit of the work from the DE codex will spill over to the next Eldar one and most likely Gav will be in charge of the rules and Jes in charge of the models, so it should be very good all round.

Are you serious? The FW Eldar are some of the most beautiful and well-designed models that have been released in years - look at the Shadow Spectres, the Hornet, or even the Wasp.

The Corsairs are a throwback to the old Corsairs - you know, when GW established what those particular things looked like. Nobody particularly cares that you think that they should look like Elves with doublets and turbans.

As a 6 year exclusively Eldar/Dark Eldar player, II feel I have some right to complain here.

The problem is not that GW doesn't know what to do with Eldar, its that they don't want to do it. Take a look at this and you'll see what I mean:

In 4th edition Eldar were scarily fast and hard, ~80% of us have fleet, enabling them to get into position almost twice as fast as the rest of you footsloggers.
Now, every man and his dog has 'run'. So what's our pointy eared speed bonus? We can assault after running. Well, if you haven't noticed, most eldar don't last long in assault with any decent enemy (Fire Warriors included). S3 can only go so far. The close combat specialists themselves have a couple of problems as well. Scorpions don't have fleet, that's f*cking useless, Banshees have 4+ armour (not even moderately useful against 5th Ed codexes). Harlequins aren't so bad, but can't deal with enemy specialists reliably. Unless you plan on sending a 20 man storm guardian + conceal-warlock squad to deal with MEQ (in the same way pieces of bread deal with ducks) fleet is a bit useless. This newfound mediocrity is worsened by the fact that Eldar have not even a single open-topped transport.

Psychic Powers: Current Eldar Fortune is (IMHO) one of the best powers ever. Doom's great too. Both of these are near essential to turn a 1 on 1 fight to your advantage. Unfortunately, Eldritch Storm is less effective than a Lasgun volley, Mind War is unreliable at best and guide requires you to stand next to a static shooting unit. 2 great powers isn't bad, but you soon find them essential to winning combat against enemy 5th ed codexes. BUT WE CAN ONLY HAVE 2 FARSEERS. Which is a pretty major problem when you practically require them for any attack against any single 5th Ed target. And points to points they don't compare to space marines, I'm not sure about other 5th ed psychic powers, but maybe that's because there's only been 3 CODEICES, TYRANIDS D-ELDAR AND GUARD. With necrons geared for october and Dark Angels after that, soon my local gaming store will need a shelf just for SM codices. Rediculous.

Maybe those problem will be fixed, you know, when they write a codex for the current edition of the game.

Yeah, we might have a fun and playable codex in ~6 years when they finish codex Dark Angels, Black Templars, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, Invaders, Iron Hands and whatever overpowered SM trash they come up with next. In my opinion there is only 1 good chapter: ANGRY MARINES!

You know, if I didn't know better, I'd say GW are trying to make space marines better than everyone else. I wonder what gives me that impression...

Only 3?
Space Wolves, Blood Anegls and Grey Knights aren't 5th ed?
Eldar are 4th ed. They are bound to have problems but some armies have it even worse.
Necrons and Sisters are the armies up next AFAIK.

I had the pleasure of playing my Tyranids against Eldar for the first time recently and was horrified by some of the stuff they had.

1. Warp Spiders had higher initiative than my Warriors.

2. Runes of Warding affected my space magic powers all over the board, to the extent that an entire brood of Zoanthropes blew themselves up by trying to shoot.

3. Falcon tank moved 24 inches to get into shooting position to bop my Tyrannofex.

4. Shadow in the Warp was useless.

5. He got a lot of useful re-rolls due to Fortune (I think).

6. Some of his tanks had these vanes on which reduced attacking shots to max S8 or something.

It all seemed quite mysterious and worrying.

I still won the game, thanks to boldness combined with healthy luck, but I certainly didn't go away thinking Eldar were a crappy army, even though they are 4th edition.

Kilkrazy wrote:It all seemed quite mysterious and worrying.

Kilkrazy: master of sarcasm

Xarian wrote:Are you serious? The FW Eldar are some of the most beautiful and well-designed models that have been released in years - look at the Shadow Spectres, the Hornet, or even the Wasp.

The Corsairs are a throwback to the old Corsairs - you know, when GW established what those particular things looked like. Nobody particularly cares that you think that they should look like Elves with doublets and turbans.

To be fair they never had wings.




I also have a feeling he might be confusing Corsairs to Exodites by his description.

First let me put any of you down who some how got the impression that I wanted Eldar to look like high elves... Not sure where that came from. I referenced high elves for two reasons.

1) the former (not the current) High Elf army book was trash, and I mean trash! By GW's own admission the army book highlighted their weaknesses over their strengths. The newest army book for High Elves is beast! not only in terms of units, points cost ect. but also in terms of background, wargear, and story that is represented on the table top! Effectivly the old book was thrown out the window and the new one written with very little consideration of what the army had been. High Elves were formerly a bad example of their dark cousins. Now they not only stand apart they can and do hold their own. This is the rebirth I think GW needs to consider for the Eldar.

2) The second reason for bringing up the High Elf book is that the army went in a new direction, and not simply due to the edition it was printed under. They retained their frail nature but increased in "fighting prowess". Eldar are, or should be, glass cannons! They will tear you apart but if you hit them... well they've had a bad day! We all know Eldar are just space elves! I am merely saying have a look at what the fantasy guys are doing and take a note or two.

On the subject of the forge world stuff here is my take... Yes FW stuff looks great, almost always. So why are the corsairs simply guardians w/ wings? Thats all they are, guardians... with wings... I'm not sure but I doubt eldar need another guardian squad. now granted its FW so the rules aren't official anyway but I guess I was just disappointed. I would have expected more from FW than just pinning some wings on a guardian. But because they don't measure up to my ideas of what they should have been they are a joke? These models are a JOKE, not because they don't follow exactly what I think they should be, nor because they don't have a reference in history. No they are a JOKE because there is no creative thought or imagination put into them what so ever! Guardians w/ wings... WOW! What a concept! Why didn't we think of this before?! Everything else for the ELdar looks really good, why they half-did these I'll never know. Thats why I asked the question whats the direction? Where are they trying to go w/ this?

I still don't see a clear direction over the past few installments of the Eldar Codex. fast and agile? Not really, not anymore anyway... Glass cannon? Kinda, but without the cannon part. So the input I wanted from all of you was what direction are they heading in OR... should they be heading in? Don't answer this with "I think the Eldar aren't as bad as some", "I like the FW flying guardians" or "that Eldar psychic powers are good". These are NOT answers to what I'm asking. I'm asking for some deep thought here on the direction of the pointy eared space faries... or "Fail-dar" as I like to call them . I am asking for insight, predictions, suggestions.... not "well your dumb! I think its a good army". That doesn't answer the question.

If you take a closer look at Eldar, some of the stuff they have are actually buffed by the new rules. Warp Spiders (I think, not sure) got Deepstrike due to being Jump Infantry and no longer need to buy it (again, I think I saw it in the FAQ, but not sure, feel free to correct me). Pathfinders got crazy awesome since they retained their uber-rending from before, and the new one, meaning what you want dead stays dead with these guys, not to mention a easy 2+ cover save. And the Avatar is one of the best cost-effective MC HQs. His cost is dirt cheap for what you get (compare it with a similarly priced Hive Tyrant) and has immunity to Melta and Flame weapons.

They do have other glaring problems, like how Swooping Hawks are crappier than Warp Spiders in almost every way and form (except for the Skyleap thing, but it's more of a parlor trick now), assault troops not having access to an Assault Vehicle or an Open Topped Vehicle, expensive models (Mostly because a good portion is metal/resin, and even some of the plastics feel overpriced compared to their contemporaries, namely Avengers VS Kabalites).

They're still mostly glass cannons compared to MEQ armies. With a basic trooper costing about 8 points, more than 50% more than the "horde" trooper (Guardsmen and Gaunts) with about as much survivablity, they're not gonna start throwing bodies at the enemy. Aspect Warriors, at roughly 16-30 points a pop depending on type, can be a pain to loose to a single S4 AP4 shot, which is much more common than S5 AP3 shots. They hit hard though, really hard. so they're still Glass Cannons. The haphazard feel is due to the fact that they were updated during GW's codex reform period, where they decided that they wanted to simplify things and reduce some of the clunkier variant rules (like Craftworld and Legion rules), which (imo) backfired spectacularly as almost all codexes from that era are looked down upon (Mainly: Eldar, Dark Angels, Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons. The Orks are an exception, who are apparently one of the best and were a turning point at the codex designs).

Commissar Rant wrote: After reviewing an old Eldar codex I found and the most recent one, as well as looking at the new releases from forge world for Eldar. I've come to a conclusion... GW does not know what to do with Eldar.

I am posting this, and I would like the rest of you to take a serious look at the issue also, and tell me what you think. I honestly can't see a defined direction, theme or for that matter any cohesion to the dirty Xenos. Their shooting isn't the best. Their cc fails against anything designed for cc. Their psychic powers are mostly a joke. They are no where near the fastest army now. I can't see where they are trying to go with them!

The most recent cause I have to say this is based on the FW new release stuff for Eldar. Almost none of that stuff looks like it had more than 15min of thought put into it! Those corsairs are a joke! When I think Eldar corsair I picture a mix between Eldar rangers and barbary/arabic style pirates. Not dragonfly guardians!

In all seriousness I think the boys at GW should go talk to their fantasy dept. co-workers and get some ideas from the High elf and Dark elf designers. Eldar have potential, their background and fluff provide limitless possiblity, this could easily be represented on the table top! But no GW is instead too busy writting their 800th marine codex and working on another price hike!

I agree actually. DE have been defined now as fast and killy with some whiplash CC units and a lot of popcorning (small individual units that are effective units in their own right). Absent psychic powers they are in many ways what eldar should be: fast, killy, and vulnerable if caught up.

Look to how the EPIC Eldar work.
1. Give them very killy short range weaponry.
2. Skimmers that can do pop up attacks in some form.
3. Boost their aspect warrior speed and killy effectiveness.

I have only played 2 games of the current edition of 40k and one was against Eldar.

The first game i played was against marines, i was using guard and found it a reasonably easy task to destroy enemy units with long range bassilisk shots and battle cannon rounds plus my infantry platoons massed autocannon fire. I managed to get a draw in an obejctive capture mission and killed the majority of my enemys force so i thought "oh this isnt so bad"

Then against Eldar i faced a much smaller enemy army who fielded only 3 units of infantry (2 Dire avengers and a Seer council) who were all mounted in seprents and falcons. I found it almost impossible to destroy the enemy skimmers even with massed Heavy weapons and ordnance fire (Pesky spirit stones) My enemy then dismounted his guys and devestated my whole infantry line with massed shuriken fire.

They are a very good army but i think next time i will just hammer the transports with every weapon i have.

If Matt Ward writes their new codex they will shoot fire out their arse and lasers from their eyes...pew pew.

Eldar used to be awesome, suriken weapons used to be the pimp daddy gun of the universe in 2e. Unfortunately the some how techno-leaders not have guns that rival lasguns not bolt guns. Short range, low armor save. Eldar need to be totally retooled into something that resembles what they were in 2e.

I would just like to note that before 5th ed, Fleet would actually give you an extra bit of movement. In 5th ed, you only got faster with Fleet if you charged, so it completely killed what made the Eldar Fast (for their ranged troops anyways, since before this meant they literally moved faster than others, while now you're paying points for a skill you'll probably never use on guardians).

I have been looking pretty closely at Eldar. I think the problem is that their codecies have just re-hashed the past. In earlier edtions they were top tier, so much so that as rules changed their codecies remained the same;presumably writers thought that Eldar were so good, there was no real need to change anything. Now, everyone else has caught up, and Eldar are, well, ordinary. I mean, their models are lovely, and they have great psychic powers and armour, but the thing that made them distinct-superior speed and mobility-has diminished as other armies gain things like Fleet.

In the other games I play (BFG, Epic) Eldar are a force to be reckoned with and are a distinct force with distinct rules.In 40K they are a nice looking force that can yeild great results, but I agree they seem to have lost some of their flavour.

How should we solve this??

I just think it is unavoidable to note that Codex Creep has occurred in 5th edition, to the extent that vanilla SM players are complaining that their codex isn't as good as the newer different colours of SM.

It isn't a smooth progression, of course. Orks are still pretty competitive, and IG still rock. I don't have a proper impression of Deldar strenght yet.

The older books are notably less competitive thanks to rules changes and being subtly over-costed.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

Xarian wrote:Are you serious? The FW Eldar are some of the most beautiful and well-designed models that have been released in years - look at the Shadow Spectres, the Hornet, or even the Wasp.

The Corsairs are a throwback to the old Corsairs - you know, when GW established what those particular things looked like. Nobody particularly cares that you think that they should look like Elves with doublets and turbans.

To be fair they never had wings.

[url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/190771-Eldar%2C%20Warhammer%2040%2C000.html][img]http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/2/28/190771_sm-Eldar%2C%20Warhammer%2040%2C000.jpg[/im][/ur


I also have a feeling he might be confusing Corsairs to Exodites by his description.

That'd be a negative, Ghost Rider

I'm gonna give you the answer you don't want: it's due to an old Codex. EVERY SINGLE part that you complained about, except the Corsairs, are things that you had in 4th but lost due to the transition to 5th. Considering that fact, it's not too strange that an unupdated Codex doesn't work as well as a newer one.

Just to give you a similar example; I play Black Templars. Our melee units, with the exception of assault terminators that more or less need a Land Raider to transport them, are effectively neutered by the fact that all the 5th ed assault-centred armies get more attacks for a cheaper price. We also can't RZ into combat anymore. This, in combination with the recent FAQ changes (which I'd be more happy with if they did one for each 'dex) makes the best Templars lists be shooty as gak, completely the opposite of the fluff. This doesn't make me draw the conclusion that GW has "no idea" what to do with my beloved Templars, I just accept that I don't play a 5th ed army. Why should Eldar be any different? Why is it OK for a Xeno army to demand being updated without anyone thinking twice, but when a marine player does the same people rage that we "don't need any more SM armies"?

Surely it's not too hard for GW to update points for a codex when new rules come out?
If they leave the units and rules alone, but change the points, players will adjust their armies to fit.
If a unit or rule gets nerfed, GW drops the points a bit. As long as they increase everything else's points across the board, it''ll even out, and almot be a new codex.

You guys have also forgotten the huge weakness of when eldar cast their powers. It has to be done at the begining of the turn which means that every dawn of war you get screwed by having to walk on your army and not be able to cast fortune.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
That'd be a negative, Ghost Rider

Holy cheese biscuits Batman, where is that pic from?

Not sure I ever saw that one before, only book I never owned was Chapter Approved, so either I've forgotten it, or it was typically in the one book I failed to own.

To pull a couple of things together from another thread...

From this (RT era artowrk)...

Hellfury wrote:I am digging the corsairs.

But then again anything harkening back to the heady days of Rogue Trader is great in my book. A nod to the older vets is always appreciated.

To this (FW corsairs)...

Tmonster wrote:http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/ELDAR-CORSAIR-HEAVY-WEAPONS.html
new eldar corsairs with heavy weapons

Pretty damn good if you ask me.

It was in Rogue Trader, dang. Well to be fair I've not looked in one for nigh on twelve years, so had totally forgot.

Granted... they don't seem to be very focused in their army development as of late... but as others have pointed out we are working from an old dex.

I kinda like the idea of the corsairs... they were my first 40k army 20+ years ago... but I'd like to see them in an official codex (being part of the new eldar dex would be fine) rather than being in any FW publication which greatly limits their use over here in the 'States. If I could build an all-corsair, codex supported 40k army... I'd be all over it it a heartbeat!

First to say anything.. at all... about space marines NEEDING ANYTHING is far from fair. Don't like your SM codex? Play out of the reg one, its one of the best out there. Or just use the rules from on of the 50,000 others....

Secondly yes it is old, and yes they didn't change much from the one before this codex. But thats now answering my question. And don't any of you dare to say something regarding "not all space marine's have a completely independent and defined role"... We are talking about a stand alone army here, not one that takes all its basic troops and rules from a "parent codex". Eldar have been out paced imo. Their dark kin (who look freak'n awesome now!!) are better at the killy shooty fast game than they. Run ruined fleet for eldar as "getting to assault after running" is such a big deal to them. However paying points for an ability thats now almost stock is!

What could GW do to give them back a feeling of uniqueness?

Oh wow, that completely ruins the idea of Corsairs for me. I've got to say I had the same general vision of them as Rant, I think: a sort of decadent hedonist with classical Arabic luxury aesthetics, who acted like a less Death-Metal Dark Eldar. If they're revisited by GW proper, I hope the whole "weird little dragonfly wings as their defining feature" thing is dropped in favor of an aesthetic that more fits the general conception of "Corsair" better.

Commissar Rant wrote:First to say anything.. at all... about space marines NEEDING ANYTHING is far from fair. Don't like your SM codex? Play out of the reg one, its one of the best out there. Or just use the rules from on of the 50,000 others....

Don't like your Eldar Codex? Play Dark Eldar instead! They're a good Codex!

Seriously, people complain about "Codex-hoppers" but when someone wants to stick to a Codex and wants it updated the Legio Spacemarinehateis turn around and wage a Crusade against every slightest idea about updating marines.

To reiterate: We're in the same situation. I could switch to SW or BA to get an assaulty team, neither of which I want to do. Similarly, if you want to play a fast, fragile hard-hitting army, there's Dark Eldar, which you don't want to play. Because I play a marine army, however, I can't say anything at all while you, as a Xeno player, can complain 'til you drop? Seriously, knock it off with the hypocrisy, it's borderline infuriating.