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This somehow became a spirited debate at the FLGS last night. School of thought number 1 is that it is a two model unit and thus ultimately worth 1 KP. School of thought number 2 argued that if you destroy the cannon, you get a KP and then since the Tech Marine becomes an IC at that point you get a second KP when you destroy him. It proved completely irrelevant when the dice were done rolling (naturally) as the person who wanted the second KP ended up losing by 4 but I'd like some input for the future from the Dakka denziens.

They are 1 KP

The unit is one kill point.

Technically if the thunderfire and the techpriest die at the same time, it's one kill point. However due to the fact that it becomes an indepentant character opens the room for debate.

However the thunderfire cannon is wargear, in how it's listed. Wargear doesn't give kill points. Ask a tau player.

juraigamer wrote:Technically if the thunderfire and the techpriest die at the same time, it's one kill point. However due to the fact that it becomes an indepentant character opens the room for debate.

However the thunderfire cannon is wargear, in how it's listed. Wargear doesn't give kill points. Ask a tau player.

^

2 KP if the thunderfire dies first.

Wargear can give kil points, if it counts as a separate unit

It is one unit, 1 KP. The order of which you destroy the unit doesn't effect how much it is worth.

-cgmckenzie

1 KP, as the cannon is wargear, and the two units go together. you dont pay fora tech, then add the cannon. its a given,..you buy the cannon, it comes w a priest. so when the Tp becomes indipendant, he would NOT count as a second kp.

Its one entry on the units page so its one kp not like a transport which is a seperate entry

Becoming an IC doesn't make the Tech a new unit. He just gains a new rule.

It's one unit, one KP.

insaniak wrote:Becoming an IC doesn't make the Tech a new unit. He just gains a new rule.

It's one unit, one KP.

This. There is one unit; an artillery unit. If the gun dies, the techmarine model gains the IC rule, but this doesn't somehow create a new unit. He's still just the one surviving model of the existing unit.

Why the crap do Tau get hosed then when their vehicles disembark their drones? They FINALLY erratted that if your vehicle goes down with the drones its only one kp, but as it is you cant use a neat aspect of your army without handicapping yourself.

Orock wrote:Why the crap do Tau get hosed then when their vehicles disembark their drones?

Because the drones actually form a separate unit when they disembark, and because their rules were written before Kill Points were.

juraigamer wrote:
However the thunderfire cannon is wargear, in how it's listed. Wargear doesn't give kill points. Ask a tau player.

Sorry dude. I'm a Tau player and every tau player knows their wargear gives a kill point if it forms a separate unit. it's even in the Tau FAQ

Well it depends
Tau FAQ
"Q: Are gun drones that have been detached from a vehicle
able to contest objectives and do they give away kill
points? (p30)
A: Yes to both questions."
and
"Q: What happens to the gun drones on a vehicle if the
vehicle is destroyed? (p30)
A: The gun drones will be destroyed along with the
vehicle. Note that they do not give away an additional kill
point as they have not been detached from the vehicle."

SeattleDV8 wrote:Well it depends
Tau FAQ
"Q: Are gun drones that have been detached from a vehicle
able to contest objectives and do they give away kill
points? (p30)
A: Yes to both questions."
and
"Q: What happens to the gun drones on a vehicle if the
vehicle is destroyed? (p30)
A: The gun drones will be destroyed along with the
vehicle. Note that they do not give away an additional kill
point as they have not been detached from the vehicle."

Exactly what i said. if it forms it's own unit it's a KP. Not sure what part your saying depends?

The TFire fits the definition of a retinue, and is thereofre 2 KP

nosferatu1001 wrote:The TFire fits the definition of a retinue...

No it doesn't.

A retinue is a unit that is attached to an IC, which the IC can not leave.
A thunderfire cannon is a part of a unit that is comprised of the cannon and a model who becomes an IC once the cannon is destroyed.

VoxDei wrote:

juraigamer wrote:
However the thunderfire cannon is wargear, in how it's listed. Wargear doesn't give kill points. Ask a tau player.

Sorry dude. I'm a Tau player and every tau player knows their wargear gives a kill point if it forms a separate unit. it's even in the Tau FAQ

Drones bought through wargear don't give kill points. Drones on vehicles count as passengers.

A Thunderfire cannon is essentially artillery. It has a crew of one, the techmarine, and if the cannon is destroyed then the Marine gains an additional rule, IC. The Techmarine was not an independent character who joined with the Thunderfire cannon unit, he was purchased, and an upgrade was purchased for him that gives him an extra model.

Saying you get an extra killpoint for killing both is like saying you get an extra killpoint for killing the Commissar in a Guard squad.*



*Not 100% analagous since the Commissar lacks the 'becomes IC if the rest of the squad dies' rules, but you get the idea.

The thunderfire isn't essentially artillery, the thunderfire IS artillery. At no point does the tech marine become a new unit.

The Tau FAQ about drones and gunships applies to Tau, not to SM and their mobile death machine. It is asking, not about artillery, but about [Tau things I don't understand here].

-cgmckenzie

insaniak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The TFire fits the definition of a retinue...

No it doesn't.

A retinue is a unit that is attached to an IC, which the IC can not leave.
A thunderfire cannon is a part of a unit that is comprised of the cannon and a model who becomes an IC once the cannon is destroyed.

Use all the definition

The IC also counts as a UC while with the unit. Which the Techmarine does. The t'fire is a unit the TM cannot leave. He becomes an IC when the unit is destroyed, exactly like a retinue.

It fits MANY parts of being a retinue.

The techmarine isn't a unique character while with the thunderfire(i am assuming that is what UC means). I can have multiple thunderfires with multiple techies and still have some IC techies followed around by servitors. None of those are unique.

It fits some parts of the retinue rules, but not all and therefore isn't a retinue.

-cgmckenzie

Upgrade CHaracter, aka akin to a Sarge

So it still fits all the parts: an IC that has a unit it cannot leave, is a UC while the unit is alive, and becomes an IC again once the unit dies.

Its a retinue.

He doesn't start as an IC, he gains IC once the cannon is destroyed.

It's not a retinue because it isn't optional. Retinues are things like advisers and such that are optional additions to a notable IC. The thunderfire is the main purchase, the techmarine merely comes along to work it.

The thunderfire unit (a techie and gun) is still only 1 kill point. He doesn't become a new unit.

-cgmckenzie

AFAIK thunderfire cannon is just 1 KP regardless if you kill them at the same time or you kill the gun 1st then the techpriest 2nd, AFAIK if you kill the cannon and fail to kill the techmarine you don't give that KP since the unit itself was not "Technically" destroyed. So when the cannon blows, hide the techmarine and deny the KP

juppy wrote:AFAIK thunderfire cannon is just 1 KP regardless if you kill them at the same time or you kill the gun 1st then the techpriest 2nd, AFAIK if you kill the cannon and fail to kill the techmarine you don't give that KP since the unit itself was not "Technically" destroyed. So when the cannon blows, hide the techmarine and deny the KP

You are 100% right, these people above, some of them anyways; are the kind who would argue that when a Techmarine's servitors die, they are 1 KP and the Techmarine leading them was another KP.

By that logic, you know, when the only unique model in a squad survives (The Sergeant) maybe he should give KPs to right? I mean, everyone else is dead and he is alive, who cares if it is still the same unit, let's follow the 2 KP Logic for one unit!!!! *Major Sarcasm*

@Nos

so a waaaghboss with an ammo runt gives away a killpoint if he uses it? Ammo runt is a wargear with a model, so by your definition a unit where the waaaghboss is attached to and even worse, he cannot attach to another squad because he must leave the ammo runt before, which he cant?

Yes I know its not perfectly fitting, but its just an example to think about.

Also define upgrade character. Why should a techmarine be an upgrade character? He is not an improvement of other members of the unit. He also did not "join" the thunderfire cannon as the thunderfire cannon model counts as a gun model (which follows vehicle rules in many cases. Ever heard of joining vehicles? ) and the techmarine is considered a crew model. Basic artillery rules. If the gun model is killed, the crew model is left. Being an IC doesnt prevent him from being a crew model. Being IC only allows him to join other units afterwards.

But why on earth do you think it makes a difference, who dies first in a retinue?

If the IC dies -> instant killpoint

or: If the retinue dies without the IC -> no killpoint
or the other way round.

The point in a retinue is:

You have an IC
You have a unit it is attached to

2 different units forming a single unit

they can only be separated by killing one part of them, either the IC or the unit.

Then you either count them as two separate killpoints or as a single killpoint.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Use all the definition

The IC also counts as a UC while with the unit.

So does a Space Marine Sergeant. And the sergeant is also not an IC to begin with.

The Techmarine does not start as an IC. He's not an IC who counts as a UC while with the unit... he's a member of a unit who becomes an IC when the rest of his unit is destroyed.

The t'fire is a unit the TM cannot leave. He becomes an IC when the unit is destroyed, exactly like a retinue.

With, again, the key difference that the Tech wasn't an IC to begin with.

It fits MANY parts of being a retinue.

So does the Space Marine Sergeant. Fitting some parts of the rule isn't sufficient. It's not a retinue.

IdentifyZero wrote:You are 100% right, these people above, some of them anyways; are the kind who would argue that when a Techmarine's servitors die, they are 1 KP and the Techmarine leading them was another KP.

Er... and they would be right. The Techmarine and his servitors are two separate units, so they count as two kill points. And even if the servitors were a retinue (which they're not), the Kill Point rules specify that an IC and his retinue count as two kill points... so either way, they're going to be two kill points.

By that logic, you know, when the only unique model in a squad survives (The Sergeant) maybe he should give KPs to right?

I'm curious as to how that follows the same logic.

Insaniak, the part about the servitors got me thinking, would the same apply to a BT Chap's cenobyte servitors? Seeing as they join or leave units along with the Chap makes me think that they're increasing the Chap's unit size, but is this correct (sorry for the slightly OT question)?