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I have been thinking lately about how many of the folks in my local gaming group/coven dont actaully have a good grasp of the rules for the systems they play.

I bring this up after spending yet another game having to work out nearly everything from combat res to even basic stuff like what my opponent needs to hit. It seems that my local group use me as a "rulebook" of sorts (they all own copies of the rules for everything we play) I finally reached my limit halfway thru a game of fantasy last week and simply refused to work stuff out for the guy I was playing against and as I watched him stumble thru working out a combat I relised that when It comes down to it the guys I am playing about seem ok about dropping $1000 aus on an army but wont spend a night reading a rulebook.

So if your reading this and you know you do this to someone please remember the following

1. If your going to spend hours and hours assembling and painting some uber new unit please take 5 minutes to learn its special rules.

2. Read your fething rulebook.

3. remember the basic statlines in your army I have played marines players who dont know a basic SMs statline...

4. If you are unsure of a rule or need help it takes 5 minutes to post on dakka to get an answer.

There are too many.

If you use a Tervigon it has 15 different special rules as well as its basic stats and standard options.

No-one with a life could find time or energy to learn that amount of information for an army, especially when it will change in the next edition.

Kilkrazy wrote:There are too many.

If you use a Tervigon it has 15 different special rules as well as its basic stats and standard options.

No-one with a life could find time or energy to learn that amount of information for an army, especially when it will change in the next edition.

Still the fact that you know that the tervigon has 15 different special rules suggest that you have read them

I don't know all the rules of the back off my hand, but I know enough to get by in a game.

I don't mind too much if someone doesn't know all the rules. It's the people who start making up the rules...like 60% of the people at my local GW.

Orks don't need rules

Besides, I thought you just had to move your little plastic soldiers around the table and make "PWEW PWEW!" noises

Come to think of it now, sometimes I feel like I am doing just that

Jubear wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:There are too many.

If you use a Tervigon it has 15 different special rules as well as its basic stats and standard options.

No-one with a life could find time or energy to learn that amount of information for an army, especially when it will change in the next edition.

Still the fact that you know that the tervigon has 15 different special rules suggest that you have read them

I have read them. I don't remember them all. I look them up when needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another factor is that the 15 special rules, basic rules and options are spread out among about seven different pages in two different books.

I know every rule I need too. I play 90% of games without looking at the codex or the rulebook ever. If something does arise, then it's an exceptional circumstance and we look it up.

Normally the reason I have to open my codex or rulebook is that my opponent doesn't agree with me so I have to prove I'm right!

We learn new things each game, checking in the rules book or in a codex
Life is about learning, after all o/

So is the problem that people don't have the rules/summary sheets handy to look up when needed, or that they don't have the statlines and special rules for everything in the game memorized? Because if it's the latter then seriously, I'll never play in a tournament or against people I don't know ever again, because I honestly can't be arsed to memorize every god damn thing (or spend the money buying codices for every damn army).

Ok a good example would be in a game of fantasy recently my opponent placed down his new shiny plague furnace and had even looked up any of its rules pregame.. I dont expect anyone to remember a random table but I do expect them to have some idea of how the thing works.

But that being said knowing I am also talking about being able to work out your own combats etc and just having a good grasp of the basic rules.

This is why ive started playing kings of war. Its difficult not to know the rules they are so straight foward.

While most of the guys around here know the basic rules and have at least a rough idea what their specific special rules do, there are some guys who dont. Even tough we are gaming with these guys since 4 years, just a few weeks ago one of these compared the bs of his model and the enemies while shooting, to figure out what he needs to roll to hit.

While i agree that no one can know every rule he ever needs ( GW games have way to many ( sometimes needles) rules). You should at least have a rough idea whats going on, after your first few games. In army specific rules you should at least a rough idea what they dont and know where to look them up.

But sadly, there are some guys who will never learn the rules. Im not sure why. Maybe they are to lazy, but there are some people where i wonder if they ever could remember all rules and understand them, even if they actually tried

I can say with confidence that I not only know the rulebook to 99% accuracy, but I know virtually all the rules in every codex, point cost, and stat line.

But thats the way my memory works

I memorize the statlines for all the units I actually use or commonly face, and all the special rules we commonly use. And all but a few rarely-used main book rules. Statlines are pretty easy because they rarely change even with a new codex. I've got twelve years of practice with most of them. A big part of it is simply practice. If you play pretty much every week, and regular weekend tournaments on top of that, it just sticks. At least for me. I am NOT expert with every codex, though. Just the ones I read and at least occasionally play against, though that's most of them.

I still bring the books though; either to refresh myself or to show my opponent. I think the way I use the books also helps me memorize stuff. If I'm ever less than 100% sure, I go ahead and look it up. Reading it when it's directly relevant to a situation you're dealing with also helps it stick better.

IME most of the good players I know are at a similar level (sometimes a little less, sometimes significantly more) to me.

The people who know all the rules are too busy bitching about them on internet forums to actually ever play a game.

Jubear wrote:I have been thinking lately about how many of the folks in my local gaming group/coven dont actaully have a good grasp of the rules for the systems they play.

I bring this up after spending yet another game having to work out nearly everything from combat res to even basic stuff like what my opponent needs to hit. It seems that my local group use me as a "rulebook" of sorts (they all own copies of the rules for everything we play) I finally reached my limit halfway thru a game of fantasy last week and simply refused to work stuff out for the guy I was playing against and as I watched him stumble thru working out a combat I relised that when It comes down to it the guys I am playing about seem ok about dropping $1000 aus on an army but wont spend a night reading a rulebook.

So if your reading this and you know you do this to someone please remember the following

1. If your going to spend hours and hours assembling and painting some uber new unit please take 5 minutes to learn its special rules.

2. Read your fething rulebook.

3. remember the basic statlines in your army I have played marines players who dont know a basic SMs statline...

4. If you are unsure of a rule or need help it takes 5 minutes to post on dakka to get an answer.

Why arn't you telling those people to at least show up to play with a reference card, a list with thier special rules for thier special units, or tell them to have thier rulebook handy and look it up themselves?

If it has happened to you more then once or twice, Just have the cards handy in the shop.

What happens if your not the guy playing and are the guy sitting there drinking a coke reading through something else, do they bother you then as well?
I'd have stopped that before it started when people started showing up with armies not knowing how to play.

If your group is peeing themselves that bad with rules, you just need to have a sitdown with the whole group with the rulebooks, and you all have a coke and a smile and talk rules, with an example of 2 opponent armies, with a 2 troops and a HQ to learn the rules.You play out the reference game with the figures while people are asking the questions. No muss no fuss.

Special oddball rules need to just take a few extra minutes before you even play the game to discuss and to call across the shop about what this or that different unit does. Chances are if one guy doesn't knows it, another will.

I don't memorize in the beginning, unless I'm playing something I always play. Then after a couple of stumble games, when you take your time between players to learn how to play, people get to run with it.

Crawl- Teach the game rules, Walk- play a couple of games with a referee,( Probibly YOU in this case.), Run- 2 players play with the reference card and thier codex lists and codex handy.

A stumblepoint shows up, your running with a guideline, but then the D6 thing pops off and you can worry about it after the game for the next time.

This game isn't one of the kind that always goes the same way, and sometimes, you have to make allowances for things.

But with that being said, You shouldn't be having to teach someone the game each and every time you play.

I know I don't know them all. That's why I always carry a rule book, the codex for the army I play, as well as my Army Builder list(which gives me the statlines and quick references for most abilities).

It's not just down to knowing all of the special rules... I've found over the years that gamers seem to fall largely into two different camps...

There's the less common 'pro-active' gamer, who has read the rulebook thoroughly, probably buys each codex (or at least the ones he's interested in) as they are released, and who generally winds up 'running' the game, unless they fluke a pro-active opponent, at which point they revel in being able to relax and just play the game without having to tell their opponent what to do the whole way through...

And there's the much more common 'submissive' gamer. He was most likely taught to play by a friend, and while he might own the rulebook (more likely he doesn't, although he probably owns a codex) he certainly hasn't read it from start to finish. He learnt to play through having his opponent tell him what to do, and is content to just keep playing that way for the next 15 years (or until he gets sick of the game, whichever comes first).

Most gaming groups will be made up of one or two people from the first type, and the rest from the second.

Not that this is necessarily a bad thing... I'm certainly not going to look down on someone for not taking the time to develop a perfect recall of every rule in this constantly changing game. It's just the way of things... Gaming is a hobby. Some people will put more effort into it than others.

I know all of 40k's basic rules, I know all the basic rules for my units, however I always lose it whenever I get to assault because quite frankly, I've never prepared for getting my tau into close combat...

Cheat sheets over here.
Army list has all relevant stats on it. Additionally, weapons stats are on another page and there's the other printout.

"My army's special rules; what I have to do and when I have to do them."

I'm also used as a rules ref by clubmates. Especially for WHFB which I don't play and don't know the rules for (they changed a lot since 3rd ed).

I have a really hard time keeping the rules and special rules strait. Not to mention the fact that I have bits of 3 previous editions bouncing around in my head. When I do play 40k, I've had good luck finding experienced players to keep the action going with their rules knowledge.

For the most part though, I've switched to other rulesets that are simpler and/or more streamlined.

I don't hate the 40k rules as much as some, but it's defnitely not my ideal ruleset.

Grot 6 wrote:

Jubear wrote:I have been thinking lately about how many of the folks in my local gaming group/coven dont actaully have a good grasp of the rules for the systems they play.

I bring this up after spending yet another game having to work out nearly everything from combat res to even basic stuff like what my opponent needs to hit. It seems that my local group use me as a "rulebook" of sorts (they all own copies of the rules for everything we play) I finally reached my limit halfway thru a game of fantasy last week and simply refused to work stuff out for the guy I was playing against and as I watched him stumble thru working out a combat I relised that when It comes down to it the guys I am playing about seem ok about dropping $1000 aus on an army but wont spend a night reading a rulebook.

So if your reading this and you know you do this to someone please remember the following

1. If your going to spend hours and hours assembling and painting some uber new unit please take 5 minutes to learn its special rules.

2. Read your fething rulebook.

3. remember the basic statlines in your army I have played marines players who dont know a basic SMs statline...

4. If you are unsure of a rule or need help it takes 5 minutes to post on dakka to get an answer.

Why arn't you telling those people to at least show up to play with a reference card, a list with thier special rules for thier special units, or tell them to have thier rulebook handy and look it up themselves?

If it has happened to you more then once or twice, Just have the cards handy in the shop.

What happens if your not the guy playing and are the guy sitting there drinking a coke reading through something else, do they bother you then as well?
I'd have stopped that before it started when people started showing up with armies not knowing how to play.

If your group is peeing themselves that bad with rules, you just need to have a sitdown with the whole group with the rulebooks, and you all have a coke and a smile and talk rules, with an example of 2 opponent armies, with a 2 troops and a HQ to learn the rules.You play out the reference game with the figures while people are asking the questions. No muss no fuss.

Special oddball rules need to just take a few extra minutes before you even play the game to discuss and to call across the shop about what this or that different unit does. Chances are if one guy doesn't knows it, another will.

I don't memorize in the beginning, unless I'm playing something I always play. Then after a couple of stumble games, when you take your time between players to learn how to play, people get to run with it.

Crawl- Teach the game rules, Walk- play a couple of games with a referee,( Probibly YOU in this case.), Run- 2 players play with the reference card and thier codex lists and codex handy.

A stumblepoint shows up, your running with a guideline, but then the D6 thing pops off and you can worry about it after the game for the next time.

This game isn't one of the kind that always goes the same way, and sometimes, you have to make allowances for things.

But with that being said, You shouldn't be having to teach someone the game each and every time you play.

I think ive breed a certain level of lazyness into my group (its a garage style gaming group not a store) by simply working alot of the stuff out to speed up games, I have since I started the thread brought this up with the worst offenders and let them know that I am not enjoying playing as much because of the above problems.

I've recently started Flames of War and have really read up on the rules including all the little ones and this has lead me to question (and be right 99% of the time) rules/moves during the game against the more experienced players. Some are really important to the game and it is a little bit annoying that I know more rules and have to bring these up. I hate irking older/more experienced players by bringing up rules that they have never used even though they are in the bloody book!!!!!

My 'main games' in terms of tabletop are 40K, WHFB and WOTR. I can play at least 90% of my games without ever needing to consult the core rulebooks, not including the provision of reference for my opponents, and that includes things like Miscast tables. Most of my army books are firmly ingrained in my memory - but I do play a lot of armies.

I find the older I get, the less rules I remember!

To be honest, I have given up trying to memorize rules; I've been playing 40K on and off since RT days so the rules I do remember end up getting muddled up with rules that applied two or three editions ago.

I find it much easier to have my rulebook close to hand and well thumbed!

After playing on and off since RT and always reading any book or codex from cover to cover I find I have so many versions crammed in my noggin that I really can't say that I am certain about anything and regularly check the RB and codex throughout any game.

It my of course be my age (35 yesterday! ).

Alternatively there is always the old gambit I use at work when asked a question - I have it written down so I do not have to remember it!

It only young-uns that seem to pride themselves in knowing all the rulz off by heart, as if if they are Warhammerest!

I belive WHFB and 40k ARE written for 'young uns'.

As they love remembering loads of pointles bits of information.(They memorise entire decks of 'Top Trumps' for gods sake!)

However,in general older gamers prefer to have much more straight forward rules , that DONT get in the way of the gameplay.(And use reference sheets for all the fiddely bits ... )

I have a freind who seems to be able to absorb rulebooks. He does read them wrong from time to time but thats more a case of them being written in a way that leads to different interpretations.

I always imagine him like Short Circuit when he reads a book. Flicking through the pages at lighting speed mumbling queitly as he processes all the information lol

I am terrible for forgetting rules that benefit me. The amount of times I get near the end of a game then remember a special rule that could have benefited me massively earlier in the game.

I screw up at least 1 rule a game, its a given, its also why I never get upset if someone else has a rule wrong.

I try and know the BRB and my own codicies inside and out. I try and read every other army's codex as well and pick out what seem to be the biggest differences from other forces (synaps, guard orders, etc) or if I am likely to be seeing it across the table alot I will actually buy a copy of a codex for an army I don't own.

Why because I play in and help run lots of tournaments, plus I like to make sure I'm not getting cheated, accidently or otherwise.

That being said, do I expect anything close from my opponent. Not really. I expect/hope for them to have a solid understanding of their own rules and the BRB rules but beyond that, this game has to many rules for everyone to be a walking encylopedia. Which is why I am always happy to answer questions and back up my answers by going to the book.

What DOES piss me off, is when others refuse to entertain the idea that they may be mistaken and seem to have issues going to the books to prove their point.