Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Why are Chaos Raptors seen as uncompetitve? They fulfill a very nice role in the army that no other unit fits well. If the situation demands they can deepstrike on the field, firing precious melta, fire, or plasma where they land. The squad is another unit on the field that the opponent needs to worry about. They can footslog up the field, moving 12, shooting, and assaulting 6. They can't score, but they can get to objectives quickly if they need to contest. Furthermore they can take Chaos Icons, the most useful being Khorne and Slaanesh imo. The models are quite sexy as well, imo.

Sorry if things don't make sense, it's almost two and I'm feeling braindead, but this came into my head tonight.

For the same reason most other Jump Infantry are seen as uncompetitive: Vehicles are as fast but are tougher to kill, cheaper, bring an extra weapon, and a units lost from a vehicle exploding is generally marginal compared to a jump infantry squad getting shot out in the open.

Luke_Prowler wrote:For the same reason most other Jump Infantry are seen as uncompetitive: Vehicles are as fast but are tougher to kill, cheaper, bring an extra weapon, and a units lost from a vehicle exploding is generally marginal compared to a jump infantry squad getting shot out in the open.

This. As for the deepstrike part, that's what Termicide is for.

Ah, but you can keep the jump infantry behind a Rhino, getting a yummy 4+ cover. Every time I've used them they have served their purpose, be it getting an objective or killing a unit that would've otherwise been a thorn in my side.

Vehicles are as fast but are tougher to kill, cheaper, bring an extra weapon, and a units lost from a vehicle exploding is generally marginal compared to a jump infantry squad getting shot out in the open.

True, but a vehicle can be taken out by a lucky one-shot. Unless they're using large blasts, it's going to take full squad fire to bring them down. if you move them tacticly (rhino, terrain cover, etc.) you can do a lot of damage with them. That said, at 20 pts a pop plus upgrades, they can be expensive, but I really like them

Furthermore they can take Chaos Icons, the most useful being Khorne and Slaanesh imo. The models are quite sexy as well, imo.

For tournament play, I like Slaanesh. For friendly games, I like Nurgle against IG and Eldar, Khorne against Orks and Tau, Slaanesh against Space Marines

I know this isn't the painting forum but I feel the need to comment on this. I am not a fan of the jump packs. Too loyalist for me. I've kitbashed the wings from possessed marines and some Dark Eldar Scourges, and they look much more Chaosy. I'll have photos once they're painted.

They're a CC unit that sucks at CC. They have no special bonus in CC but that's what they should be doing. Zerkers are MUCH better for this and about the same price (cheaper usually cuz they don't get upgrades most of the time).

Sadly, most of the time I've used Raptors they bite the dust before they can cause any real damage although I've never actually tried to DS them in. However I like using them - as the way I see it, marines are assault warriors, so I feel like I'm really getting into the spirit of the game if I use them like this - even if they do end up getting shot to pieces!

Sothas wrote:They're a CC unit that sucks at CC.

The contrary position is that they are shooting unit that is adequate at CC.

Justus wrote:Ah, but you can keep the jump infantry behind a Rhino, getting a yummy 4+ cover. Every time I've used them they have served their purpose, be it getting an objective or killing a unit that would've otherwise been a thorn in my side.

then youve answered ur question?

They arnt competitive based on the other units available in the csm codex.

All good armies have enough anti-infantry (especially anti-MEQ) to be able to handle a raptor squad in short order. Good infantry units usually have some extra durability in the form of being a hoard, having feel-no-pain, 2+ armor saves/decent invul saves, high toughness, great mobility and often some combination of a few of those. Any army that is tooled up properly to deal with elite infantry can easily deal with a handful of MEQ's even with their flimsy 4+ cover. Its kind of like congrats on removing my 35 pt transport now kindly remove your raptors from the table for me.

I think you can do better, but a lot worse ( looking at you Noise marines!) i would rather take normal CSM with rino and mark of khorne with less special wepons, but cheaper and more durable. But you cant argue with that they look great. And, thanks to finecast, they can stand!

They are expensive, not particularly good in CC, and are outclassed by Termicide in the role of Combi-weapon delivery.

That said, they can be a relatively ok way to get more Meltaguns in your list, if you must. Personally, I'm not a fan.

Likely their high price for being only T4 single wound power armoured models. Sure they move quicker, they still die in droves to concentrated fire (or battlecannons)

You need other infantry to make them work, outherwise all small arms fire wont have anything else to shoot at. Youl propably have everything else in transports so... Anyway, if you have lots of raptors, that might work. Mayby. I dont play caos and nobody plays raptors ( i dont play much against caos either).

Cost and speed for not much pay out in HTH.

As stated before, I can reserve a termicide unit and do the job much more cheaply.

Units in rhinos move just as fast and they are harder to kill.
(The rhino costs less than the premium you pay to have 5 jump pack marines.)

In theory their speed, firepower and so-so HTH ability should make them valuable as they use a non-pressured fast attack slot. But you know as well as I that CSM are not the cheapest to field so the pressure is not on the slots but on the cost.

DAaddict wrote:
Units in rhinos move just as fast ...
(The rhino costs less than the premium you pay to have 5 jump pack marines.)

I'm not really leaping to their defense, but neither of those are true.

Rhinos can't Deep Strike or run.

Raptors are also 10 points cheaper than a 5 man squad in a Rhino.

They're actually pretty good if you use them as a 5 man squad with 2 special weapons (plasma or melta) and no other upgrades.

You're looking at a 120-130 point investment, so they qualify for "disposable" status. I would just jump them up the field behind cover (tanks or terrain), not deep strike them.

A chaos MSU army is strong. 3 termicide squads and 3 raptor squads will only cost around 720 points for all 6 units, and fill the role of distracting and softening up the enemy for your rhino/demon prince rush.

A big point in their favor is that they're Fast Attack. All the other choices are terrible in that section of the 'dex, so they have zero competition, and can complement termicide nicely.

I'd try a 2000 pt. list like this:

2x demon prince
(wings, warptime)

3x 5 man squads of raptors
(melta guns)

3x 3 man squads of terminators
(combi-plasma, will deep strike)

3 obliterators, individual units

4-5 squads of troops in rhinos.

Gives a lot of punch and surprise. One of those sucker punches will land.

Especially if you can spare the points for a couple of Icons. Digi laser, that's basically the only way I can see Raptors being used effectively. And even then, it's not a slam-dunk. But definitely usable.

odorofdeath wrote:Especially if you can spare the points for a couple of Icons. Digi laser, that's basically the only way I can see Raptors being used effectively. And even then, it's not a slam-dunk. But definitely usable.

True, most players would just fill in any leftover points with... moar obliterators! But, I like the MSU approach. Especially with the new GK 'dex in the mix. Multiple small units are a good counter to them, and I feel that 3 small squads of raptors stealthing and tank-hunting is much more fun and interesting than 5 obliterators, although maybe not as uber.

I used to try a 10 man raptor squad with pfist champ, 2 meltaguns and Icon of Khorne. It was a ton of points, and they never, ever did much. They just aren't a good cc unit. However, 5 man deepstriking raptors worked well for me. If you prefer infiltrating Chosen over deepstriking Terminators, deepstriking Raptors are a decent alternative to termicide that doesn't use up the more valuable Elite slots.

There are two ways to use raptors really:
msu (so 3 small 5 man units), used in whats more or less a hit and run capacity

or

spam (3 20 man units), used to cause your opponent to gak himself because you have 60 3+ save jump pack models on the table.

You rarely see the msu build, not because raptors are bad, just that there are even better options available in the book that can do something similar, or are just more effective overall/less difficult to use.

You almost never see the spam build, because who has that kind of money (and 60 raptors will also run you over 1200 points).

Thanks for all of the input guys, I just didn't know why they were so hated among the internet. That won't change my like of fielding them though, as in my local circle they perform well enough to bring back to table again and again.

DarknessEternal wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
Units in rhinos move just as fast ...
(The rhino costs less than the premium you pay to have 5 jump pack marines.)

I'm not really leaping to their defense, but neither of those are true.

Rhinos can't Deep Strike or run.

Raptors are also 10 points cheaper than a 5 man squad in a Rhino.

Rhinos cannot deep strike true. They can't scatter all over the board with 12" range weapons and numbers small enough that I am going to be lifting 22 pt models off the board. If I am going to deep strike it is going to be with termicide units.

5 man squad 75 + rhino 35 = 110 Raptors I do believe are 22 pt models so that is 110. 10 man squads of course get even worse. Plus the fact that
the rhino is much more survivable than 3+ armor.

DAaddict wrote: Raptors I do believe are 22 pt models

You believe incorrectly.

DarknessEternal wrote:

DAaddict wrote: Raptors I do believe are 22 pt models

You believe incorrectly.

Cool so then I must assume that they are less. Still that is irrelevant to the survival issue as you have to have a minimum of 5 in either squad. Add the cost of the rhino in and assume you are opposed by a ML and 9 guys with bolters. Because of your movement, you will be within 24" on the first turn. I fire the ML and 9 bolters. Yielding 1 kill from the bolters and 51% chance of killing one with the ML. so 2 dead raptors.
As opposed to the rhino where I have a 33% chance of a penetrating shot and then a resulting 11% chance of blowing up the rhino. Survivability is key and the raptors just lack that.

The point is that raptors are a weak point investment to accomplish anything as there is a better choice in the codex to do the job.

DAaddict wrote:
Cool so then I must assume that they are less. Still that is irrelevant to the survival issue as you have to have a minimum of 5 in either squad. Add the cost of the rhino in and assume you are opposed by a ML and 9 guys with bolters. Because of your movement, you will be within 24" on the first turn. I fire the ML and 9 bolters. Yielding 1 kill from the bolters and 51% chance of killing one with the ML. so 2 dead raptors.
As opposed to the rhino where I have a 33% chance of a penetrating shot and then a resulting 11% chance of blowing up the rhino. Survivability is key and the raptors just lack that.

Now you're just straw-manning irrelevant hypotheticals together and trying to pass it off as an argument.

While Daddict's argument leaves something to be desired, I don't anyone really needs to be convinced of Raptors' lack of survivability.

The only way I could see bringing Raptors is if you are looking for target saturation and ran out of points on troops in rhinos.

They are just another fun unit that doesn't do well on the competitive scene. If you go to big tournaments all the time, don't take them. If you just play locally, by all means, play the crap out of them.

I have pyrovores. Do I ever play them at tournaments? Hell no. Do I play them locally because my friend Tom ALWAYS stacks and moves his orks like in Fantasy? Yes I do

I keep struggling with the urge to get a pack of Raptors to serve as an escort to my Daemon Prince. They could melta vehicles open for him to assault, join CC to make enemies split attacks and to add volume of attacks...and the models just look cool.

But as people say, they are too easy as targets. If they had the Skilled Flyer rule to use cover better, it'd be different (it's a crime how almost no units, no matter how specialized, have it).

Actually, I would just be happy with lowering their cost by 2-3 points a model. That would alleviate the worst of the sticker shock, and let them function a little better as mobile harassment and special weapon delivery.