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Just played my first full game of Hordes today--and I have to say it 'felt' much more enjoyable than Warmachine. Don't get my wrong, I really enjoy WM--but Hordes feels like a deeper game. Between plotting your fury, remembering all the animus abilities, etc.---just seems to be a tactically deeper game. Thoughts?

It's not. At least, not 'IMO'. The consensus of the PP community at large would actually suggest the opposite.

In Warmachine, you must have at least a good 'rough draft' for how your entire turn is going to go in your maintenance phase; this is because you only have 6-8 focus points (typically) with which to power all of the spells, special abilities, boosts, and power attacks that you may want to perform. This can also mean, depending on how ambitious your plan is, that the whole thing can fall apart on one exceptionally bad dice roll.

Hordes/Fury by contrast is 'play as you go'; there's no 'resources' allocated beforehand, it's simply how much risk you want to embrace on the offchance that you can't pull all the Fury off your warbeasts and have to deal with Frenzies next turn. It's possible to push everything to the max and cast all your spells/force all your beasts for a single, incredibly powerful turn called the 'Furygasm'.

On a typical eMakeda/Molik Karn bullet run, for example:

eMakeda upkeeps Leash (1)
casts Road to War (3)
casts Gladiator animus on Molik Karn (2)

Gladiator Titan casts Gladiator animus on himself (2)
forces himself to push Molik Karn (1)

Molik Karn charges (typically for free)
and buys up to 5 additional attacks/damage boosts (5)

That's 13 fury spent right there, which is typically double the amount of focus that most Warmachine players have access to.

Same with Legion:

eLylith upkeeps Stealth (1)
eLylith casts Ravagore animus 2x (2)
eLylith casts Stinger animus 1x (1)
eLylith boosts/buys an additional attack (1)
eLylith feats (0)

Ravagore 1 shoots twice, boosts attack and damage (4)
Ravagore 2 "..." (4)
Neph Bolt Thrower shoots twice, boosting hit/damage and hit (3)
Neph Bolt Thrower shoots twice, boosting hit 2x (2)

Shepherd 1 pulls all fury off of Ravagore 1
Shepherd 2 "..." Ravagore 2

Now the only Fury remaining is 5 fury spread between 2 bolt throwers, which Lylith can reave next turn with no chance of her battlegroup frenzying. That's a total expenditure of 18 fury in one turn with 0 risk of negative effects on subsequent turns.

Fury is an inherently more powerful mechanic than Focus which is why warbeasts tend to either cost a bit more than similar warjacks or be a bit worse-off statwise or healthwise. This is also why I wouldn't call Fury a 'deeper' game mechanic because it allows players to be more laissez-faire; like slops pool versus billiards.

Did your Titan Gladiator that just slammed a Warjack over eHaley and follow-upped within melee range just roll snakeyes for damage, leaving her with 2 health? No problem, force him two more times for additional attacks. If this was Gorten Grundback's (5 FOC caster) Ghordson Basher, then Gorten had exactly enough focus to cast Strength of Granite (2) and load it with 3 focus; one for the charge, one to boost the hit, and one to buy a second attack against now-prone eHaley. Skorne player simply shrugs and buys another attack; Rhulic player goes through much wailing and gnashing of teeth as assassination run fails and he now has to scramble to find something else that can maneuver to kill Haley or put up a protective screen around Gorten to weather the enemy's counteroffensive.

I'm glad you enjoyed Hoards.

Its not tactically deeper - its more risk/reward which is appealing. Do i run hot to make sure i kill this thing and risk frenzying or do I play it safe?

I personally find WM more reliant when it comes to competitive play because my army is more effective over time compared to a Hoards army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sourclams said it better than I could.

Casper wrote:
I personally find WM more reliant when it comes to competitive play because my army is more effective over time compared to a Hoards army.

This is largely the consensus within the PP community and is reflective of the Big Tournament results.

The 'Furygasm' allows Hordes to have very powerful early-game plays. Three heavy warbeasts using the equivalent of 12-15 Focus while the Warlock dumps their fury pool on spells and debuffs will crush just about anything.

Late game, though, as warbeasts die off to attrition or transfers and that fury pool shrinks, Warlocks simply run out of resources while Warcasters keep regaining their Focus pool to power spells or overboost their ARM stat.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Just played my first full game of Hordes today--and I have to say it 'felt' much more enjoyable than Warmachine. Don't get my wrong, I really enjoy WM--but Hordes feels like a deeper game. Between plotting your fury, remembering all the animus abilities, etc.---just seems to be a tactically deeper game. Thoughts?

You probably just enjoy alpha strike craziness of Hordes Fury
whereas Warmachine plays very well to attrition.

I think Hordes is much eaiser to play. The disadvantage is you have to get rid of fury off of beasts but there's plenty of cheating ways to dump fury without worries . And even then they'll charge the closest enemy with a boost

The only advantage WM has is that the casters are able to protect better with focus, and warjacks are able to function a little better after being damaged.

I pendulum back and forth between my cryx and legion.

Hordes has a powerful early game, but you take out the Warbeasts and you cripple the Warlock more so than taking out every Warjack.

obsidianaura wrote:warjacks are able to function a little better after being damaged.

I have to disagree on that. Unless you have Mechanics in WM once a system is disabled it's gone, in Hordes you can just heal 1 point in an aspects and go to town

It takes longer to cripple an aspect but that one aspect cripples the whole beast. Where as you knock out a weapon on a jack, just that one weapon suffers where the beast loses a dice on that aspect or can't be forced. Spending fury to heal isn't necessarily that trivial since the lock likely has other things to do that is more pressing than healing a couple points on a beast.

while it isnt trivial, it's always available though which can be game winning


and imho WM has better troops overall

12thRonin wrote:It takes longer to cripple an aspect but that one aspect cripples the whole beast. Where as you knock out a weapon on a jack, just that one weapon suffers where the beast loses a dice on that aspect or can't be forced. Spending fury to heal isn't necessarily that trivial since the lock likely has other things to do that is more pressing than healing a couple points on a beast.

Although I agree with the facts as you present them, I disagree with your conclusion. In Warmachine, the list of things that can 'fix' a warjack outside of mechanics can probably fit onto one hand. If you want warjack repair, you need to spend 1-2 points on crappy solos/units. A warjack without its movement or cortex doesn't have a whole lot of value besides LoS-blocking.

By contrast warlocks can spend 1-2 Fury to transform a warbeast with 1 circle remaining from a derelict pillow-puncher into a fully functional death machine. That has a significant effect on your opponent. If I take the cortex out of an enemy warjack, I can effectively ignore it for a turn or two. If I leave a Warbeast alive, then I have to deal with its fully-powered offense next turn or move something else over to kill it.

Very good replies Sour/Malf/et al, thanks.

I can see what you guys are saying about the alpha-strike lure. I suppose that's likely the draw I felt during the game---whereas WM doesn't let you push your jacks in the same fashion (Well, maybe that explains my draw to eNemo too..).

The heal thing did strike us strange too--we actually had to read out loud twice to make sure it was that easy to make a beast fully functional.

Fury is a more powerful mechanic and the ability to heal beasts in the maint/cont phase can be very powerful. It's also a more forgiving mechanic as you can botch a few rolls, don't have to worry about mis-allocating focus, and order of operation can matter less with multiple models able to cast important animi.

The balancing act comes from Hordes' generally less efficient infantry and warbeasts costing more and having weaker stat lines than warjacks.

sourclams wrote:Fury is a more powerful mechanic and the ability to heal beasts in the maint/cont phase can be very powerful. It's also a more forgiving mechanic as you can botch a few rolls, don't have to worry about mis-allocating focus, and order of operation can matter less with multiple models able to cast important animi.

The balancing act comes from Hordes' generally less efficient infantry and warbeasts costing more and having weaker stat lines than warjacks.

You can't heal beasts in the maintenance/control phases.

It has to be during the warlock's activation.

Healing a warbeast forces you to activate your warlock first.

They both have Cons, then both have Pro's.


play both!

and its win win

after playing hordes, im glad im starting my new warmachine army.

Playing hordes is really risky, because you have to be sure on how much fury your gonna generate because too much means that your force will go totally nuts. On the WM side is the focus system. You need to share your focus so that your jacks work, but at the same time you really need focus to survive and cast spells. Hordes is much more crazier and unpredictable, WM much more strategic and methodical. I myself like WM more, but still enjoy playing against hordes.

sourclams wrote:Fury is a more powerful mechanic and the ability to heal beasts in the maint/cont phase can be very powerful. It's also a more forgiving mechanic as you can botch a few rolls, don't have to worry about mis-allocating focus, and order of operation can matter less with multiple models able to cast important animi.

The balancing act comes from Hordes' generally less efficient infantry and warbeasts costing more and having weaker stat lines than warjacks.

Just wanted to say---saw this first hand last weekend. Miss a few rolls, push the beast again--oh well if he frenzies--this is the turn that matters...


I also noticed the sharp decline in Warlock utility after a beast died.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

sourclams wrote:Fury is a more powerful mechanic and the ability to heal beasts in the maint/cont phase can be very powerful. It's also a more forgiving mechanic as you can botch a few rolls, don't have to worry about mis-allocating focus, and order of operation can matter less with multiple models able to cast important animi.

The balancing act comes from Hordes' generally less efficient infantry and warbeasts costing more and having weaker stat lines than warjacks.

Just wanted to say---saw this first hand last weekend. Miss a few rolls, push the beast again--oh well if he frenzies--this is the turn that matters...


I also noticed the sharp decline in Warlock utility after a beast died.

Yes, this is something I've noticed as well, but don't forget that you can cut your lock if you need fury in a pinch. I did this once against my store owner and his Trolls. The next thing he knew, that fury was taking control of his Earthborn Dire Troll, and throwing a fist at Calandra

Alfndrate wrote:

Yes, this is something I've noticed as well, but don't forget that you can cut your lock if you need fury in a pinch. I did this once against my store owner and his Trolls. The next thing he knew, that fury was taking control of his Earthborn Dire Troll, and throwing a fist at Calandra

Hah---that is something I forgot. 1 HP for 1 Fury right? Doh...thanks!

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Alfndrate wrote:

Yes, this is something I've noticed as well, but don't forget that you can cut your lock if you need fury in a pinch. I did this once against my store owner and his Trolls. The next thing he knew, that fury was taking control of his Earthborn Dire Troll, and throwing a fist at Calandra

Hah---that is something I forgot. 1 HP for 1 Fury right? Doh...thanks!

Yep. Sometimes a 'Lock going Emo generates the best looks on an opponent's face.

Alfndrate wrote:
Yes, this is something I've noticed as well, but don't forget that you can cut your lock if you need fury in a pinch. I did this once against my store owner and his Trolls. The next thing he knew, that fury was taking control of his Earthborn Dire Troll, and throwing a fist at Calandra

This is why you need to play Legion. Their beasts won't frenzy on the Warlock.

12thRonin wrote:

Alfndrate wrote:
Yes, this is something I've noticed as well, but don't forget that you can cut your lock if you need fury in a pinch. I did this once against my store owner and his Trolls. The next thing he knew, that fury was taking control of his Earthborn Dire Troll, and throwing a fist at Calandra

This is why you need to play Legion. Their beasts won't frenzy on the Warlock.

I was playing Trolls... I used pHoarluk to take control of his Earthborn Dire Troll with Rampager, moved it towards his caster, and smacked her. Then I moved my Impaler in and he tried to make friends with Calandra... next turn I needed the 3 extra fury to take control of the Dire Troll again

Well apparently she needed to be smacked more than once to learn to stay further away.

She was still a pain to kill... the Impaler wiffed and the troll wiffed the second time I took control of him... most of my damage was from Hoarluk's feat...

Only issue ive ran into is if ive had to cut for fury, im already introuble if im to that point where it wont help alot.

Not necessarily. There's more stuff that can mess with fury on a Beast. Knocking off a point or two off a beast can mess with your turn but not be in a critical situation.

I've been debating getting in to Hordes after being a Cygnar player for nearly a year. This thread revealed a lot - thanks dudes. The difference in resource mechanic while keep overall gaming mechanics the same is really interesting.

But, I should paint my Cygnar first before considering more models :/

Having played both Cygnar and Trolls, I also find that Trolls appeal to my aggressive playstyle much more.

But man, losing a beast sucks in so many ways. Some troll beasts (the axer in particular) have animi that are central to my game plan. If I lose him before I get to pull of my combo, suddenly I'm changing horses midstream and trying to come up with something else.

Warcasters are generally (not always) a bit more scary than Warlocks, too. I've been in a good few games when we've completely pasted each other, and I've just got to take down an enemy warcaster with my warlock. Often, it's completely nailbiting even if I get the charge and lay the smackdown. Of course, Warlocks are a nightmare to get rid of in the early game.

I think it's all about whether you're an aggressive or conservative player. If/When I pick up a second faction it'll be a hordes faction, for sure. Just not sure which one, yet .

One thing I like about Warmachine vs. Hordes is that warcasters aren't required to take warjacks. So I'm free to use my infantry!

Warlocks have to take warbeasts, OTOH, so infantry is usually absent or taken in much reduced numbers (i.e. minimum-sized unit, or no UA).

Actually you are required to spend your warcaster points on Warjacks.

12thRonin wrote:Actually you are required to spend your warcaster points on Warjacks.

I know that Warjack points can only be spent on Warjacks but must they be spent? This would impact a few lists I play against that have 1-2 unspent Warjack points.

I read this before but, since I only play horde factions I didn't care to check. I actually can't imagine playing a hordes list without spending more on Warbeasts then there are Warbeast points.