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Simple question. While there isn't that much competition for 40k at the moment (the closest being Warmahordes, which hasn't anywhere near the mainstream appeal) there will be more down the line. Do you think that 40k will ever be dethroned as the most popular of miniature wargames? Or will the day it gets toppled be the day the hobby mostly died out?

I think it may eventually price itself out. but other then that, not really.

Even after GW dies, I see warhammer 40k contineing at least another 5 years on steam and old product, probably even after that with its huge player base.

Its the fluff, and the game that really separate warhammer from the rest of the competition.

No one can touch the amount of backstory that warhammer has.

Whatever happens to GW, miniature wargaming will still be there. It was there before GW, and if things go tits up for GW, miniatures wargaming will still be there. I think it's possible for 40k to be dethroned, but it has a certain wide appeal that's hard to beat. I can't think of anything that's come out that's swept up the same demographic at all. So, while Warmachine might be the next biggest thing, it doesn't appeal to me. Even without 40k, I'd sooner find another 28mm sci fi game to play over Warmachine.

Indeed, it was around before GW and 40k and it will be around after it.

Erm....I think you would be really fooling yourself if you said warmahordes doesn't really have mainstream appeal. It is much bigger in the states than the global appeal of 40k, but hands down it is replacing 40k in many circles. The reason for this is that the WM/H players are mostly made up of pissed off x-40k people that got tired of the power creep and price gouging.

THAT BEING SAID. I just left my several year WM/H addiction to go back to 40k. The main reason being that warmachine is not the game it advertised itself to be. They got a taste of power creep money and higher point cost sales and are turning it into 40/fantasy. When I joined 35pts was considered a huge game, now 50 is a min. tournament standard. Their league allows for up to 200 pt games and makes them worth so much more that you can win leagues by simply having more money (models). So I left.

GW is still a pretty awful company to its customers in many respects, but if I am going to have to play a larger scale game I choose 40k. The rules are better for it, and the game encourages conversions which is better on the pocketbook. Conversions are not possible with PP, making it eventually more expensive if they continue to raise the point average.

A large part of why I like 40K is the options to have large vehicles, from Rhinos to Baneblades to Stompas and Titans. I can't think on any other games systems out there that have such large vehicles.

40k cannot die.

I literally mean that. The background for the game is fantastic, the miniatures look great, and the ruleset is easily accessible.

While I'm not saying that other games are inferior (just got started on the old Mongoose Starship Troopers game) 40k (and to some degree WHFB) are so mainstream in the wargaming community that even if GW died 40k and Fantasy would live on.

And on an unrelated note, damn Nightsbane, I remember when you were just starting like a year ago. Got out quick eh? Same here really, =/

How do you know it hasn't happened yet?

nomotog wrote:How do you know it hasn't happened yet?

Anyone going to a FLGS can tell you it hasn't happened.

It's hands down the most popular.

Namica wrote:

nomotog wrote:How do you know it hasn't happened yet?

Anyone going to a FLGS can tell you it hasn't happened.

It's hands down the most popular.

Well there you go then. Actually now that I think about it. Warhammer is the one that has the most shelf space in the spot where I buy warhammer. Well next to paintball anyway.

It depends really, they'll have to really screw up in order to lose the fan base. At the moment, with six edition, I'm curious to see how they're going to write a decent vanilla Space Marine Codex for 6th that won't be out shined by the silver/red/wolf/black/green marines.

Heh heh, it's been actually a year and a half already since I started, and in that time I played a few armies, and won a large tournament. Since this summer though, the game has been taking a turn for the worse, and hell, I always did want to play necrons

ShatteredBlade wrote:It depends really, they'll have to really screw up in order to lose the fan base. At the moment, with six edition, I'm curious to see how they're going to write a decent vanilla Space Marine Codex for 6th that won't be out shined by the silver/red/wolf/black/green marines.

So long as my 'nilla regular Land Raiders stay capacity 12, I'm happy.


RE: TOPIC

I doubt it will be dethroned. And I don't know about Warmahordes dethroning it. In fact, I think Warmahordes is on a throne itself. You could say both game systems are up there. They both have got great fluff. The mechanics are relatively easy to learn but difficult to master. The variety in appearance that you can have with your armies is nice. And girls are cute when they play either.

I think the days of 40k being the complete king of the hill is soon over. In the future, I think we’ll get a more varied atmosphere as far as wargaming is concerned, with wargames varying amongst gaming groups. I’m basing this off how popular WM/H, Infinity and Malifaux have become as of late.

40k will still be around mind you but I could see more companies like FFG having 40k licenses and third party bits companies like Chapterhouse having a greater presence.

To cope with the new environment, GW will probably focus more on their internet presence over bricks and mortar stores with non core locations being closed down. Release wise I could see them doing various “jump the shark” type releases in a vein attempt to regain their stature.

At times it seems as if GW is actively doing their best to dethrone the game by themselfs.

I think GW's own recent actions show that they feel their monopoly days are now over. I get the distinct impression that they are a dwindling company, with a falling customer base and serious threates finally hoving into view. For example, they have seemingly decided to raise prices to such an extent that only the dedicated can/will afford to buy large amounts. It just seems they see the end coming and are trying to bleed out as much as possible. Their own bizarre practices like no bulk discounts, no sales, no promotions, no great desire for fan feedback, etc seem suicidal to me. I felt when the current ownership took over in the early 90s that they saw the firm as a cash cow, they were not gamers running it for gamers, recent events have only backed up my belief on this. The owners are more interested in their own pension pots being topped up than the long-term survival of the firm. I hear that they are now refusing to exchange finecast figures with mis-casts. I have heard this from several sources. instead they want you to buy a finecast repair kit. This is another bizarre policy. It is illegal in the UK certainly as consumer legislation allows you to demand a replacement or refund for any item not fit for purpose. Why court people's reasonable anger in this way?

Isengard wrote:I hear that they are now refusing to exchange finecast figures with mis-casts. I have heard this from several sources. instead they want you to buy a finecast repair kit. This is another bizarre policy. It is illegal in the UK certainly as consumer legislation allows you to demand a replacement or refund for any item not fit for purpose. Why court people's reasonable anger in this way?

Really? Where did this rumor come from? Can it be confirmed?

Anyway, will it ever be? Of course it will...the question of when is the one you're looking for. But will Warhammer die? I think it will be incredibly hard for either Warhammer or 40K to die. It's too popular and the dedicated fan base is pretty big. Even if GW goes out of business, (which would be hard, it's been successful for many years. It's hard to see no one willing to buy the company should it's owners sell out) there will be other businesses that will take up the task of producing 40k miniatures. As a matter of fact, that's what I hope will happen. As it is, Warhammer and 40K are incredibly popular and the depth of the game is extremely deep, but GW guards over its copyright like a mother wolf. As it is, if we want GW quality miniature's, we the customers have no choice but to pay the price they put up until we get fed up with it. GW going out of business might actually be very good for the hobby. But then again, it's a big company that is the best at what it does. If GW goes, it will take a while for anyone to biuld up as extensive a list of products, quantity, and quality that GW is producing right now.

Just to echo what a few others have said really, the background that they have is just too strong, theres no way it will die out for a long long time.

I also think they reckon they are way ahead of the pack merely because they are pushing up the prices. People are still buying into the hobby despite the horrendous rate at which the prices are rising, so what will GW do? Put them up cos people are willing to buy their products at a premium. They think they can get away with it and they are.

Sure at some point it will, nothing is eternal, however at the moment it seems to look like they shall dethrone themselves instead of there being another company dethroning them (outside the US anyway). No other company is big enough yet to hurt GW.

I think it could happen (40k being dethroned, I mean). GW's business practices are so bad that there's no way they'd survive in a truly competitive market. They rule because they hold a virtual monopoly.

Think about the rage posting you see with each codex release: "OMFG X UNIT IS SO OP F*** THIS I'M QUITTING" but because they love sci-fi wargaming and there's no alternative (warmahordes is a SKIRMISH game, not a wargame) they end up crawling back.

But if someday there is a viable alternative released and GW happens to have given a bunch of customers the finger yet again at exactly the right/wrong time, they could end up with a serious fight on their hands.

Speaking of which, is anyone else excited about warpath?

http://www.manticgames.com/Sci-fi.html

THE SQUATS LIVE! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!

I don't see why people don't realize you're allowed to play more than one game at a time. If you have a Warmahordes army sitting next to a 40k army, no one is going to turn up at your door and kick you in the face over it.

No, 40k will likely never be de-throned as the dominant setting. It's too wide-spread to ever effectively die. A better question is will GW die? Probably. They can do some things so much better, but they're going down slowly. Without significant changes it will be over-taken by PP and others. However, I can guarantee that 40k will survive once the franchise or whatever you want to call it is bought by some other company. It's worth is astronomical in the right hands.

They call him the immortal god emporer don't they? But ya I agree with iproxtaco gamesworkshop may die but 40k will be quickly picked up by another company. After that it does depend on how the company does 40k. If its poor fewer will play it. But if they do an extrodinary job then it may be more powerful than ever.

-Loki- wrote:I don't see why people don't realize you're allowed to play more than one game at a time. If you have a Warmahordes army sitting next to a 40k army, no one is going to turn up at your door and kick you in the face over it.

I don't think anybody here is saying that. Both are expensive hobbies though, it's hard for a lot of people to play both.

Ulthanashville wrote:

-Loki- wrote:I don't see why people don't realize you're allowed to play more than one game at a time. If you have a Warmahordes army sitting next to a 40k army, no one is going to turn up at your door and kick you in the face over it.

I don't think anybody here is saying that. Both are expensive hobbies though, it's hard for a lot of people to play both.

They're actually not that expensive when to think about it in regards to how much a unit costs, how much time you get out of building and painting it, and how many hours of use you get out of it.

I mean, when I counted up how much I spent on video games over 4 years including systems, it was over $12,000au. $3,000au per year. Bear in mind I'm a single player gamer when it comes to video games, and I don't like replaying games very often, but that was downright shocking.

When I learned that, I got back into wargaming. I've collected a new Tyranid army, over 1000 points, all bought locally at retail, and in a year I've spent, including the heirophant my fiancee bought me for Christmas, about $800au. Add to that about $200au worth of Vampire Counts I imported, that's $1000au worth of GW stuff that I will use as long as I play the games and won't lose 'backwards compatibility'. A far sight better than $3000au worth of video games I'll play once for 10 or so hours each.

I suspect that Ancients, Napoleonics and WW2 are all bigger than 40K.

They have the backing of immense amounts of astonishingly detailed fluff.

Kilkrazy wrote:I suspect that Ancients, Napoleonics and WW2 are all bigger than 40K.

They have the backing of immense amounts of astonishingly detailed fluff.

Yes, but they're historical. That doesn't really count.

It appears that people are more fascinated with fictional fluff with non-fictional fluff (if fluff could even be applied to history)

Agreeing with everyone else the only thing that will stop GW from being the most popular miniature war game is the never ending increase in price and lack of transparency in the company.

The model line is very appealing to just about everyone and the fluff is very well written. Games like warmahordes and infinity are up there but their model line is more limited and have a whole different look from the GW line that most people seem to be used to. The fact that GW has a large variety of models and armies is what keeps the game going.

This is all a generalization but just my opinion.

Seems the biggest statement is that they'll end up hurting themselves more than others them.

Which I think is a false statement. Eventually they'll shoot their own foot so much that they'll see a sizeable drop in sales. What happens then is the business part of the company will cave to the creative part and they'll start back on the right track with better sales. Need to remember that it is a business, and it's economics 101 that the higher your demand, the higher you can and should sell at. When that demand falls they'll both lower prices and work more on innovation.

It's happened on numerous occasions on similar products, one of the most recent being World of Warcraft, but there are other examples if you look. They aren't stupid, their a big business, they'll self regulate because they have the means to.

Nightsbane wrote:Heh heh, it's been actually a year and a half already since I started, and in that time I played a few armies, and won a large tournament. Since this summer though, the game has been taking a turn for the worse, and hell, I always did want to play necrons

Well, at least you had fun with it.

After seeing the new stuff in Wrath I kinda lost interest, I agree that there seems to be power creep now, a lot of the older Prime models are losing their utility.