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Newer list for 1500pts...

What do people think?

HQ
Farseer = 135pts
Doom
Guide
Runes of Warding
Spirit Stones

Elites
6 Firedragons = 121pts
Exarch
Firepike
Crack Shot
(mounted in Falcon)

Troops
10 Dire Avengers = 162pts
Exarch
PW and SS
Bladestorm
in a Wave Serpent = 135pts
Scatter Lasers
Vectored Engines

10 Dire Avengers =162pts
ditto
Wavserpent =135pts
ditto

10 Dire Avengers =162pts
ditto
Wavserpent =135pts
ditto

Heavy Support
Falcon =165pts
Scatter Laser
Holofields

Falcon =165pts
Scatter Laser
Holofields

I like your list its quite good one thing i would bhange is your fire dragons only have 5 and give them crack shot. Not tank hunter 5 meltas with fantastic bs dont need an extra +1 to the damage charter. Take crackshot because you will find that your opponent will want to hide his big tanks within cover and well goodbye tank :-). Upgrade another group of avengers to have an exarch and the skill bladestorm that group could then go in the middle of a 3 way pin which would be all your avengers and would act as a vice making sure the bulk of you opponents force is stuck against your eldar

they all have exarchs and bladestorm...

I like your point about crack shot... I forgot about that...

have you considered giving you exarchs dual catapaults? just because if you are going to be blade storming that is always a nice boost.

Oh well honestly sorted then just give them crackshot and you on your way :-)

hmm... maybe... I'll see what's in the bits box...

As a rule, never ever EVER use Falcons as a means for transporting Fire Dragons.

Fire Dragons fulfill the role of suicide melta and by shelling out for the super-expensive gunboat that is a Falcon you lose either: the Falcon's capacity to shoot as you want your Dragons near tanks fast or the dragon's ability to hunt tanks because you want the falcon to shoot.

A wave serpent is a much more cost-effective and sometime more useful than a Falcon.

Other than that, the list looks okay, you may need another squad or two of Fire Dragons to effectively deal with armour though.

Iranna.

I don't understand why not?

why waste points with another serpent when you have a perfectly useful Falcon there?

Pluxtheduck wrote:I don't understand why not?

why waste points with another serpent when you have a perfectly useful Falcon there?

Because. You pay through the nose for that Pulse Laser and the secondary weapon + any other upgrade you might give it. For Fire Dragons to be effective, they need to be close to the vehicle that they are shooting. That means getting them nice a close quickly; probably by turbo-boosting into the enemy's lines. Now, you've spent all those points on the Pulse Laser and whatever weapon and they can't fire. In your opponents turn, they are not going to ignore that falcon so your Dragons can jump in and do it all again after they've destroyed something, it's gonna get smashed. Hence, your 150+pt. transport is gone and your Fire Dragons are sitting ducks.

You're better paying around 120pts (ish) with a Wave Serpent to do the same job.

Iranna.

Hmm... I see very little difference between the wave serpent and the falcon in this list... 30 points isn't that bad. I feel the holofields will give the falcon enough protection for it... I have taken a whole Tau gunline and survived from it...

Pluxtheduck wrote:Hmm... I see very little difference between the wave serpent and the falcon in this list... 30 points isn't that bad. I feel the holofields will give the falcon enough protection for it... I have taken a whole Tau gunline and survived from it...

That would be because you have 1 squad that can take out tanks. One. That's all. If they get killed and your opponent has meched up then you'll be fighting a very uphill battle. Also, 120pts. is an expensive Sepent, I generally run mine at 100pts. each. That means you're wasting 50pts. On something that a Wave Serpent could actually do better.

Iranna.

You seem not to see the second falcon which, if the first falcon is wrecked (which you seem to think will happen spontaneously) can also take on tanks...

So can you see why I think that taking a wave serpent may be a waste of points, when I can use a falcon for both roles?

Pluxtheduck wrote:You seem not to see the second falcon which, if the first falcon is wrecked (which you seem to think will happen spontaneously) can also take on tanks...

So can you see why I think that taking a wave serpent may be a waste of points, when I can use a falcon for both roles?

Sorry, didn't see the second Falcon, however, that only reinforces my point.

You now have a second Gunboat going to rescue the hapless Fire Dragons. To do this, it will have to move like hell (or have moved up with them) which is a turn spent not firing.

It's rather easy to wreck an AV12 vehicle you know? Especially when it's about to drop off a cargo of Fire Dragons. A good player will target it with all the Anti-Tank at his disposal (Since it is your *ONLY* reliable Anti-Tank source).

That's the point, you'll get one turn of shooting max with the Falcon after deploying the Dragons, and that's reliant on the fact that Your opponent misses/ You get good cover saves when you turbo-boost; that's something which you can't rely on; especially when you only have one source of Anti-Tank!

Iranna.

You still seem to be thinking that the falcon will spontaneously wreck from any anti-tank...

And where would I find the extra 121pts for a second unit of dragons and 135pts of wave serpent?

It's a waste of points...

It's armour 12. You move fast out. Lascannon fires. Lascannon glances. Immobilized result. Cover save failed. 150 points worth of Grav-Tank crashes to the ground, leaving Fire Dragons in the open, with no good targets, and about to have Vanguards pulling a heroic intervention on them. Anti-tank units all dead

Worst case: BA Player has an assault on the tank. Melta bombs auto glance. Rolls penetrating. Krak grenades. 2 are latched on. One glances, one penetrates. Falcon explodes, killing 4 dragons. Failed morale check. Caught in a sweeping advance.

You see where I'm headed? Let the Kamikaze Fire Lizards go in the cheaper vehicle!

Hmm... you again are missing holofields and the fact why would I leave out in the open and get it destroyed? Do you think I'm that silly?

At first glance, i chuckled and wondered if the pages blew out of your codex. but i started reading and looked a bit closer and noticed its a good list. Your are really able to nail enemy infantry. i mean, D.A.'s bladestorm and scatter lasers on wave serpents, you got those Guardsmen ducking for cover. Although i ask myself is this too narrow minded? i cant answer that myself, but if you can, then your able to sort it out.

have you played a game with this list? would be interested to know how the other side came out

Zambro wrote:At first glance, i chuckled and wondered if the pages blew out of your codex. but i started reading and looked a bit closer and noticed its a good list. Your are really able to nail enemy infantry. i mean, D.A.'s bladestorm and scatter lasers on wave serpents, you got those Guardsmen ducking for cover. Although i ask myself is this too narrow minded? i cant answer that myself, but if you can, then your able to sort it out.

have you played a game with this list? would be interested to know how the other side came out

I have to disagree with you here.

While it will deal with Infantry which are footslogging quite well it will be torn apart by mech armies.

S6 Scatter Lasers are by no means an effective anti-tank solution and against Mech IG, Mech Blood Angels and even Mechdar to an extemt this list will struggle.

Still, opinions will vary.

Iranna.

First off- what sort of games do you play? Local stuff, tournaments, friendlies etc? If you routinely encounter these apparently mech heavy lists then I'm inclined to go with iranna. If however, the mech heavy "meta" doesnt apply to your gaming group then you probably dont need to change that much.

From my own, not especially broad experience, I have found falcons to be average at best for anti tank. A couple of S8 shots can get a glance or two but only a 1/3 for pen on av12 and it's not that reliable. The fact that you haven't chosen either the bright lance or eml for the other weapon only exacerbates that unreliability. They function best IMO when they stay back and shoot, not when getting up close. Yes, holo fields do make it more resilient, but it is still only av 12.

When it comes to having 2 and putting dragons in one, sure it's multi tasking, which it's definitely capable of, but my experience with eldar and the game has led me to think that things that do more than one thing ok tend not to do anything brilliantly. I'd be inclined to drop a falcon and take a bare bones wave serpent with 5 dragons. This leaves with 15 points to find from somewhere which shouldn't be an issue. Ok, so you've lost a long range shooter but gained some awesome tank melting goodness. Of course, given the similarity in appearance, you could always proxy a wave serpent from a falcon and playtest to see which you prefer.

It is afterall, your army, and you'll be the one to ultimately judge how well it's working for you. If you feel you don't need the extra dragon squad in your game then you won't take them. All I would say is try it a couple of times to see how it goes before you dismiss out of hand the generally well received advice about the humble dragon wagon combo.

Imo i dont like falcons haha. Bs 3 hurts alot of eldar vehicles this one more than most (i cant roll 4+ to save my life which is why i love striking scorpions). I would axe the vectored engines and switch out the scatter laser for brightlance as that gives you more anti tank (same price too 135). I say that simply because you have far more than enough anti infantry to garner having scatter lasers as it has been already posted here do not present a good solution to mech.

As for falcons and fire dragons, they can be more survivable just because of holofields, they are however quite a bit more expensive than a serpent. I think it comes down to personal preference as if you flat out and have star engines you get the dragons where they need to go in one turn you can then just start shooting with the falcon from turn 2 onwards. but again falcons stab me in the back and so i dont use them much opting for serpents and filling out my heavy slots with a fire prism and or nightspinner (usually one of each).

Honestly, it's no use getting a heavier tank. Just because it's that much tougher won't save it from a multimelta. Remember, Dragons are most effective up close on vehicles. All it takes is for you to move into the LoS of a predator and you could be took down by lascannon or autocannon fire. I know that this would cost the enemy 115 pts for a twin linked turret lascannon. 360 degrees, rerolls to hit... all for less than your precious falcon. Also, if Fire warriors are killed you could move DA into a wave serpent.

Okay... if everyone here thinks its a dumb idea, I'll change it...

HQ
Farseer = 135pts
Doom
Guide
Runes of Warding
Spirit Stones

Elites
6 Firedragons = 121pts
Exarch
Firepike
Crack Shot
In a Wave Serpent =120pts
EML

6 Firedragons = 121pts
Exarch
Firepike
Crack Shot
In a Wave Serpent =120pts
EML

Troops
10 Dire Avengers = 152pts
Exarch
Twin catapults
Bladestorm
in a Wave Serpent = 135pts
Brightlances

10 Dire Avengers =152pts
ditto
Wavserpent =135pts
ditto

10 Dire Avengers =152pts
ditto
Wavserpent =135pts
ditto

TOTAL = 1478pts


Would this work better than before. I replaced the BL with EML on the dragon WS for two reasons, points and adaptability...

Please give your opinions. I'd also like to apologise for my argumentative ways yesterday... Really bad day...

Better...

Would you need any specialised assault? Also do fire dragons have melta bombs?

Wkavyaanshrike wrote: Also do fire dragons have melta bombs?

Yes they do, read they're army list entry (dunno if that's the name but i mean the one with points and upgrades)

I have no points left for assault units... I mean I could I theory put in an unit of banshees if need be...

Pluxtheduck wrote:I have no points left for assault units... I mean I could I theory put in an unit of banshees if need be...

Nope, you really don't need any dedicated assault, mainly due to the delivery problems of all Eldar assault units (besides Harlies but they don't really fit the theme your going with.)

Your new list is probably as strong as your going to get without doing min-squad shenanigans at 1500pts and looks like it could perform quite well.

Iranna.

Exactly... I don't plan to use them unless needed...

Again, sorry for yesterday...

Pluxtheduck wrote:Exactly... I don't plan to use them unless needed...

Again, sorry for yesterday...

Don't be sorry, what works for one person might not work for another. Play with what you're comfortable with, we're only here to give advice and whether or not you agree with it is entirely up to you.

Iranna.

Ty,

Now to go remove falcon parts from falcons