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Hmm...I don't think I have heard this complaint before:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/business/some-consumers-object-to-sales-on-thanksgiving.html

But judging from the negative reaction among dedicated Friday after Thanksgiving shoppers on blogs, Twitter and Facebook, the wave of midnight openings this year has crossed a line.

One retail executive sounded sad about the decision to open earlier. Brian Dunn, the chief executive of Best Buy, said that the midnight opening “became an operating imperative for us” after competitors moved their openings back. “I feel terrible,” he said.

But even with increased pay, some retail workers said in interviews that the holiday hours were a raw deal.

Now to be fair, I am a retail worker. Such as it is, my store is running without a Store Manager going into Black Friday. The stress leading up to Black Friday often breaks or wears down the person in charge. Nominally, my company put me in charge without declaring me the Store Manager (they cannot until a short term disability law time stamp expires for offering the job back to the Store Manager).

So the workload is on me to prepare the store for this Thanksgiving/Black Friday event. It is possible we may not see a Store Manager until the end of the holiday season.

It doesn't bother me, if people want to stay up late to shop, as miserable as that sounds, it's no skin off my back. Also no one is forcing workers to work these hours. I understand that it would be a drag, but it's not slavery.

starhawks wrote:Also no one is forcing workers to work these hours.

Yeah, until your contract doesn't get renewed because you're 'not a team player'.

Agreed, saying they dont have to work if they dont want to is a silly argument. My mother inlaw ALWAYS works on these type of holidays, and is told without being told, if you dont show up, its your job. Some places say its volunteer, and Im sure some really are, but most places are sorta kindda vounteer, and then fill the rest of the spots in weather they like it or not.

Unless you are a manager, if a retail job is your main source of income you probably aren't in a position to just quit becuase you don't want to work Thanksgiving. At least the Best Buy CEo said he didn't want his employees to work that day but once they found out there competitors were doing it they felt they had to becuase ti was to much of a loss to not compete.

KingCracker wrote:Agreed, saying they dont have to work if they dont want to is a silly argument. My mother inlaw ALWAYS works on these type of holidays, and is told without being told, if you dont show up, its your job. Some places say its volunteer, and Im sure some really are, but most places are sorta kindda vounteer, and then fill the rest of the spots in weather they like it or not.

Well then that's the way it is. If they dislike it that much, they can search for another job. If there truly isn't another job, I think they should be grateful of the one they have and they'll be fine working some inconvenient hours a couple days for the holidays.

starhawks wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Agreed, saying they dont have to work if they dont want to is a silly argument. My mother inlaw ALWAYS works on these type of holidays, and is told without being told, if you dont show up, its your job. Some places say its volunteer, and Im sure some really are, but most places are sorta kindda vounteer, and then fill the rest of the spots in weather they like it or not.

Well then that's the way it is. If they dislike it that much, they can search for another job. If there truly isn't another job, I think they should be grateful of the one they have and they'll be fine working some inconvenient hours a couple days for the holidays.

Not sure if troll or not.

starhawks wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Agreed, saying they dont have to work if they dont want to is a silly argument. My mother inlaw ALWAYS works on these type of holidays, and is told without being told, if you dont show up, its your job. Some places say its volunteer, and Im sure some really are, but most places are sorta kindda vounteer, and then fill the rest of the spots in weather they like it or not.

Well then that's the way it is. If they dislike it that much, they can search for another job. If there truly isn't another job, I think they should be grateful of the one they have and they'll be fine working some inconvenient hours a couple days for the holidays.

This isn't exactly fair man. You can't just up and find another job because you don't like that your forced to work a single holiday. Have you ever worked retail? If you have seniority or something at your job, and are making a decent salary after a few years experience, you will not get that at another retail job at a new store.

They ARE forced to work, and its a raw deal. I'm thankful I work a 9-5 at a company that mirrors the SEC's work schedule (financial software, woo)... but I remember what its like to depend on a paycheck from your full-time retail job, and feel trapped there because you know you won't get a job that pays the same if you move to a new employer. You gotta sit there and take the gak they shovel at you.

I understand it would be tough, but is it really worth complaining about? Do you really think there aren't other jobs that are a bit tougher than working retail over the holidays? I have to imagine it can be much, much worse.

starhawks wrote:I understand it would be tough, but is it really worth complaining about? Do you really think there aren't other jobs that are a bit tougher than working retail over the holidays? I have to imagine it can be much, much worse.

You've never worked retail on black friday I'm guessing, so whatever.

There is NO job, except perhaps the obviously gross ones like septic work / sanitation, that is as bad as retail on black friday.

It is HELL. I used to work in a verizon wireless, and you'd literally have people screaming at you when you tell them your out of stock on something, or that it will take 2-3 hours to look at their phone to see what the problem is because your back logged. I've heard it can be even worse at toy stores.

I've also worked at a moving company for a short time (to help a friend out). Yes, the work was more difficult physically, but it was far, far less stressful, more peaceful. Its not just how hard a job is, but how stressful it is. There are few jobs that compare to retail over the christmas period (black friday in specific) for overall stress.

how about a soldier on active duty? or a police officer that works in a high crime area? Instead of people yelling at them, they have people shooting at them, and it's not just a month out of the year....I have to imagine those jobs are just a tad more stressfull than dealing with angry customers. I have worked at a couple of restaurants and while I'm not saying it's even close to the stress that retail workers deal with, I get my fair share of bitchy, angry customers during a large rush so I'm not arguing completely blind here.

starhawks wrote:how about a soldier on active duty? or a police officer that works in a high crime area? Instead of people yelling at them, they have people shooting at them, and it's not just a month out of the year....I have to imagine those jobs are just a tad more stressfull than dealing with angry customers. I have worked at a couple of restaurants and while I'm not saying it's even close to the stress that retail workers deal with, I get my fair share of bitchy, angry customers during a large rush so I'm not arguing completely blind here.

You don't become a police officer or a soldier because your just trying to make a paycheck. You do it for more personal reasons normally.

Yes, being a soldier or cop would be more stressful, fine. But my point still stands that you can't just quit a retail job because your angry at having to work a holiday, like you seem to think you can.

Sorry but the comparson with the services doesn't work.
If I understand correctly, workers that normally work a normal diurnal shift are expected to work extra hours?

Except when on frontline duty the servicemen have watches or shifts.

The other thing is that you know the Taliban are wanting to blow your head off. One ought not have to expect the same attitude from irrate customers acting like spoiled children.

I also forgot emergency medicine. I shadowed an ER doctor because I'm a pre-med student and I can guarantee he has a higher stress job, and again, it's year round. I guess my point is that in the end, nothing is really at stake. If a customer gets pissed off, fine they yell at you. With a job as a police officer, soldier, or doctor, lives are at stake. A person could die because of a mistake made on your part. In the case of the doctor, if a mistake is made, he has to shake it off and continue working. I have to imagine that would cause a little stress as well.

....

NONE OF THOSE JOBS have anything to do with your original argument that I found irritating, that you shouldn't be angry about being forced to come in at midnight on thanksgiving, because you can just get a new job. You can't just drop your retail job and get an equal paying job, and its not what you signed up for when you first got the job.

They are effectively changing your requirements of employment without your consent. You know EXACTLY what your getting into when you choose any of those jobs you mentioned.

I agree. I wasn't actually suggesting that they quit their jobs. It was just to point out that if someone is truly that upset about their situation (which I'm trying to point out really isn't that bad in the first place in the grand scheme of things) then they should do something to change it. If an employer violated some sort of contract, then they have the grounds to complain about it. If they just don't like working tough shifts, then they really have nothing to complain about. Also, don't you think that if you get into retail, you know what you're getting into? The point you made against me can also be applied to a job in retail.

You are still being rather niave
Are people so flexible and socially mobile that they can walk out of one type of job into another at the drop of a hat?

Is the economy so strong in the USA that demand for employees outstrips supply?

If you get into medicine you also know what you are letting yourself in for, ditto the services.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:You are still being rather niave
Are people so flexible and socially mobile that they can walk out of one type of job into another at the drop of a hat?

Is the economy so strong in the USA that demand for employees outstrips supply?

If you get into medicine you also know what you are letting yourself in for, ditto the services.

In saying this, you are helping me prove my point. Jobs are fairly scarce, and I was originally trying to say that working a couple of tough shifts a year really doesn't warrant complaint past that between friends or co-workers at the end of a long day over a beer. Admittedly I didn't make my point very clear from the start. They should be thankful they have a job in the first place. And yes, I wouldn't have gotten this far in college if I wasn't passionate about the job I hope to one day have.

Here's the thing Star: most retail employees either have no/little education, or are in school. They really don't have much options. There are very few jobs that a student can get due to scheduling. Not many jobs will let you work strange hours, then change your hours in 4 months... and then change it again 4 months later. For most of the people working retail, it's not an option, it's "work retail or don't eat."

Now, that being said, I don't disagree at all that there are more stressful or "difficult" jobs (although retail is actually a very difficult job. Just think of what you expect a retail associate to know the next time your shopping. For most people it's everything about every product in the store), it's that these more stressful and/or difficult jobs don't pay minimum wage. Also:

Also no one is forcing workers to work these hours.

yeah, they are. At least if they want to keep their job. 99% of retailers will fire you on the spot if you don't show up to a shift on Black Friday.

One more thing thing (and this is really a personal story but I can easily foresee this for many retail employees). I haven't been able to celebrate with my family Thanksgiving for 5 years due to the requirements of retail. Being in college during that time, and working retail, there was just no way for me to be able to make it home and then back to work by 3-4 AM the next day. That's the problem with retailers opening so early on Black Friday. I can deal with the customers, I can deal with working the hours on that day, but what really sucks is the demand it puts on people during times when you should be able to spend time with family.

Unless I have misunderstood, shop floor retail workers are not dedicated white collar professionals.
You still look niave about what life is like for other people.

It comes across as condescending.

Shrike325 wrote:One more thing thing (and this is really a personal story but I can easily foresee this for many retail employees). I haven't been able to celebrate with my family Thanksgiving for 5 years due to the requirements of retail. Being in college during that time, and working retail, there was just no way for me to be able to make it home and then back to work by 3-4 AM the next day. That's the problem with retailers opening so early on Black Friday. I can deal with the customers, I can deal with working the hours on that day, but what really sucks is the demand it puts on people during times when you should be able to spend time with family.

That really sucks. I couldn't imagine staying at college for Thanksgiving.
But I agree. Working a 12 o clock shift would be bad, and theres not much people can do about it. However, I still believe that complaining about it won't help the situation either. A business needs to make money and stay competetive somehow.

starhawks wrote:

Shrike325 wrote:One more thing thing (and this is really a personal story but I can easily foresee this for many retail employees). I haven't been able to celebrate with my family Thanksgiving for 5 years due to the requirements of retail. Being in college during that time, and working retail, there was just no way for me to be able to make it home and then back to work by 3-4 AM the next day. That's the problem with retailers opening so early on Black Friday. I can deal with the customers, I can deal with working the hours on that day, but what really sucks is the demand it puts on people during times when you should be able to spend time with family.

That really sucks. I couldn't imagine staying at college for Thanksgiving.
But I agree. Working a 12 o clock shift would be bad, and theres not much people can do about it. However, I still believe that complaining about it won't help the situation either. A business needs to make money and stay competetive somehow.

Totally something people can do about it. When you turn 18, and every 4 years after that, you have to work Black Friday in a retail store. See how long they keep opening at Stupid o'clock in the morning.

And like I said, it's not the hours (length), it's not the customers, it's the opening time. There just needs to be a general consensus that stores shouldn't open before 6AM on Black Friday (just like nothing should be open before noon on Superbowl Monday).

Do workers get overtime bonuses for working these stupid hours?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Do workers get overtime bonuses for working these stupid hours?

Only if you're over 40 hours for the week. Considering it's on a Friday and most places bring in additional help during the holidays, almost always "no." Back in high school I worked 34 hours between Black Friday and Saturday, and I had 41 hours for the week.

Because Americans have enough holidays during the year to sit back and relax and enjoy life and family.




Are there jobs where people go work at midnight during holidays? Sure. Those are generally jobs of high necessity.

No one NEEDS to go out and buy a tv at 1:00am

I didn't mind working black friday at verizon, because I would be raking in holiday pay + daily pay (so double wages for the day), PLUS overtime pay on top of that.... so it was double time and a half.

For ~$40 an hour, sure I'll work on the holiday

Horst wrote:I didn't mind working black friday at verizon, because I would be raking in holiday pay + daily pay (so double wages for the day), PLUS overtime pay on top of that.... so it was double time and a half.

For ~$40 an hour, sure I'll work on the holiday

Who the hell gives holiday pay for Black Friday?!

Shrike325 wrote:

Horst wrote:I didn't mind working black friday at verizon, because I would be raking in holiday pay + daily pay (so double wages for the day), PLUS overtime pay on top of that.... so it was double time and a half.

For ~$40 an hour, sure I'll work on the holiday

Who the hell gives holiday pay for Black Friday?!

Very nice people?

Never worked a black Friday in my life.

every interview I have ever had with a store I told them I can not or will not work on select days.

I've been hired at every job I have had an interview at.

No skin off my ass.

Though I had lead a assistant manager to walk out and quit at Kmart.

That was kind of funny.

Shrike325 wrote:

Horst wrote:I didn't mind working black friday at verizon, because I would be raking in holiday pay + daily pay (so double wages for the day), PLUS overtime pay on top of that.... so it was double time and a half.

For ~$40 an hour, sure I'll work on the holiday

Who the hell gives holiday pay for Black Friday?!

Verizon is very good to its employees, I gotta give em that.

Being a nurse, I don't have much of a choice but to work holidays. This Christmas for instance, will be the first I've had off work for 7 years!
I understand that black friday is an American thing and will openly admit that I don't know much about it, however, if stores are willing to pay thier staff well for working the holidays then I don't see the problem. Someone mentioned $40 per hour? Hell, do it! If you don't like it take your chances and say you won't do it. If you don't like it then either suck it up and earn good money or look for another job...