Further to the "Do we provide acceptable levels of social care" debate...

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**mattyrm**

Following on from the somewhat heated debate last week whereby I said I felt as though the UK government provides more than adequately for the impoverished, disabled, special needs.. comes this heartwarming story.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15887286

A benefits fraudster who claimed he was bed-ridden yet was filmed dancing at a wedding has been jailed.

Mohamed Bouzalim, 37, cheated the authorities out of nearly £400,000, Isleworth Crown Court heard. He will serve nearly seven years for 11 counts of deception, fraud and assisting illegal entry into the UK.

The court heard he had also falsely claimed asylum saying he was an Afghan who had been tortured by the Taliban when in fact he was from Morocco. He told the authorities he had been tortured, that the Taliban had murdered his father and his mother was dead. But according to the UK Border Agency (UKBA), he was an illegal migrant from north Africa.

Over the next decade, he used false names, passports, driving licences, and other ID cards to claim almost £400,000 in benefits including money to pay family members to be his full-time carers.

At the height of the scam, he was receiving £66,000 a year tax free and managed to do a masters degree and later study for a PhD at The School of Oriental and African Studies in central London.

Bouzalim pretended he could not walk and was in need of 24-hour care.

He was provided with a specially converted ground floor, two bedroom council flat in Kilburn, north-west London, with wheelchair access.

But during an investigation, Metropolitan Police officers secretly filmed Bouzalim walking unaided from his flat and down the street. When they raided the purpose-built property they found a video of him dancing at his wedding in Morocco in 2009.

Robert Coxhead, senior investigating officer from the UKBA Criminal and Financial Investigation team, said: "Mohamed Bouzalim was a top class fraudster and con artist. His whole life was a lie."The agency added that it was because of the "overwhelming weight of evidence" including the wedding video, that he admitted his crimes.

He received £137,602 from north London's Camden Council to pay for his carers, around £70,000 in housing benefit, £60,000 from the Independent Living Fund, £74,000 in income support and £15,000 disability living allowance.

Instead of his parents being dead, they in fact came to the UK on visitor visas and then allegedly acted as his carers. They now live in London and claim pension tax credits and housing benefit, totalling about £2,000 a month. But Bouzalim also owned a property in Leyton, east London, which he rented out for £1,200 a month.

Bouzalim, who speaks six languages including the Afghan language Pashto, was given exceptional leave to remain when he arrived in the UK in 2001.

He was granted indefinite leave to remain in April 2007 and granted British Citizenship in June 2009.

At Isleworth Crown Court, he admitted 11 counts of deception, fraud and assisting illegal entry into the UK.

Three other family members pleaded guilty to defrauding Camden Council.

Camden Council and the Department for Work and Pensions have both been contacted by BBC London but have not responded regarding the case.

Well, I don't know about you lot, but this really warms my cockles. I feel all warm and fuzzy to know that I work for a living to pay for the sick, lame and lazy.

In short, I am sick of seeing demonstrations about NHS reforms, disability reforms, and wellfare reforms when quite clearly, as the above story shows, they need fething reforming! And secondly, is it just me, or does it seem far too easy to ram your fist into the state cookie jar?

So my question is, do you agree or disagree with Mr Cameron's recent proposals, such as a cap on child and state benefits?

**MrDwhitey**

Out of curiosity, are you lumping the sick, lame and lazy as being equally undeserving or just stating in general terms those your taxes go to support?

And as always, any system is not perfect, it can be exploited, people will find a way, just because some game it doesn't make it a failure, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

**Howard A Treesong**

mattyrm wrote:So my question is, do you agree or disagree with Mr Cameron's recent proposals, such as a cap on child and state benefits?

The problem isn't the benefits themselves, it is that people abuse the system. The current government want to address the high amount of money paid in benefits by cutting that to everyone, which seems a ham fisted way of dealing with fraudsters because a lot of people who are in genuine need get punished.

Child benefit should be capped, people earning over £50K don't need it IMO, but the government are going for disability benefits and others, and those genuinely relying upon them really need them. I don't see why they should be punished because the authorities are too incompetent to imprison and/or deport false claimants.

The other problem is that benefits are not much less than a minimum wage job. The government are using this as a means to rationalise cutting benefits saying they are too high and encourage people to get jobs. Problem is that there aren't many jobs around so it isn't as easy as that. Also the reason that there isn't much of a gap between benefits and minimum wage is not because benefits are too high but because jobs are so badly paid. But will a conservative government do anything about the minimum wage and workers rights? feth no of course not, they are all in bed with the banks and big business.

**porkchop806**

We got them here in the States too bro..what we should be doing is weekly surprise inspections. If you say your bedridden and we walk in and your mowing the lawn well you just fethed your self. But you'll never know when were coming.

**George Spiggott**

mattyrm wrote: Well, I don't know about you lot, but this really warms my cockles. I feel all warm and fuzzy to know that I work for a living to pay for the sick, lame and lazy.

This man is clearly neither sick, lame or lazy. He's a liar and a thief who should have his citizenship revoked, his property consficated and be deported.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

People on benefits are always an easy target for the tories. I admit that benefit fraud should be tackled, but when you compare benefit fraud to tax fraud, then tax fraud is a far bigger problem. Of course, it's easier to target those at the bottom than those at the top who dodge the taxman, especially when some of them are friends of this current government - Branson, Green etc etc

**AustonT**

You have to admit though, the guy is a genius. He speaks six languages and extorted almost a half million pound out of the government. You have to figure that even in a decently structured system he could have conned money out of the social system. Maybe they haven't found the six special needs people he's got locked up in his basement while he's cashing their cheques too.

**Easy E**

Newsflash.....

If you make a system, some people will be able to exploit it to their benefit.

Question: Should we create systems that punish everyone for the misdeeds of a few, or should we instead focus on accomplishing the goal of the system and ignore the few that exploit it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

porkchop806 wrote:We got them here in the States too bro..what we should be doing is weekly surprise inspections. If you say your bedridden and we walk in and your mowing the lawn well you just fethed your self. But you'll never know when were coming.

Great idea. Do you mind if we raise your property tax by $25 a year to do it?

**mattyrm**

Easy E wrote:Newsflash.....

If you make a system, some people will be able to exploit it to their benefit.

Exactly, and thus we arrive at the crux of the argument. I believe we should make it harder to get benefits, and make them pay less.

Liberals argue it should be easier, and involve weightier payments.

I disagree with them.

**Howard A Treesong**

mattyrm wrote: Exactly, and thus we arrive at the crux of the argument. I believe we should make it harder to get benefits, and make them pay less.

Right, so even those with no hope of returning to work deserve less too, because, it'll set an example to others not to have serious disabilities.

**alarmingrick**

mattyrm wrote:
Easy E wrote:Newsflash.....

If you make a system, some people will be able to exploit it to their benefit.

Exactly, and thus we arrive at the crux of the argument. I believe we should make it harder to get benefits, and make them pay less.

Liberals argue it should be easier, and involve weightier payments.

I disagree with them.

I've got no problem with easier, as long as they increase the oversight into what's really going on.
No, i don't have a easy idea on how to create oversight. random daily checks on random individuals
receiving aid maybe.

**biccat**

Easy E wrote:Question: Should we create systems that punish everyone for the misdeeds of a few, or should we instead focus on accomplishing the goal of the system and ignore the few that exploit it?

You're assuming that the bulk of the system goes to people who legitimately deserve benefits. This may not be true.

**Medium of Death**

We can't take care of our elderly taxpayers but we can accommodate this foreign faux-cripple and other benefit sponging scumbags... oh and junkies...

**Jihadin**

You have to admit though, the guy is a genius. He speaks six languages and extorted almost a half million pound out of the government. You have to figure that even in a decently structured system he could have conned money out of the social system. Maybe they haven't found the six special needs people he's got locked up in his basement while he's cashing their cheques too.

Nice....I say again...Nice on how you slipped that in and noone else caught it yet lol

**CT GAMER**

mattyrm wrote: Following on from the somewhat heated debate last week whereby I said I felt as though the UK government provides more than adequately for the impoverished, disabled, special needs.. comes this heartwarming story.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15887286

A benefits fraudster who claimed he was bed-ridden yet was filmed dancing at a wedding has been jailed.

Mohamed Bouzalim, 37, cheated the authorities out of nearly £400,000, Isleworth Crown Court heard. He will serve nearly seven years for 11 counts of deception, fraud and assisting illegal entry into the UK.

The court heard he had also falsely claimed asylum saying he was an Afghan who had been tortured by the Taliban when in fact he was from Morocco. He told the authorities he had been tortured, that the Taliban had murdered his father and his mother was dead. But according to the UK Border Agency (UKBA), he was an illegal migrant from north Africa.

Over the next decade, he used false names, passports, driving licences, and other ID cards to claim almost £400,000 in benefits including money to pay family members to be his full-time carers.

At the height of the scam, he was receiving £66,000 a year tax free and managed to do a masters degree and later study for a PhD at The School of Oriental and African Studies in central London.

Bouzalim pretended he could not walk and was in need of 24-hour care.

He was provided with a specially converted ground floor, two bedroom council flat in Kilburn, north-west London, with wheelchair access.

But during an investigation, Metropolitan Police officers secretly filmed Bouzalim walking unaided from his flat and down the street. When they raided the purpose-built property they found a video of him dancing at his wedding in Morocco in 2009.

Robert Coxhead, senior investigating officer from the UKBA Criminal and Financial Investigation team, said: "Mohamed Bouzalim was a top class fraudster and con artist. His whole life was a lie."The agency added that it was because of the "overwhelming weight of evidence" including the wedding video, that he admitted his crimes.

He received £137,602 from north London's Camden Council to pay for his carers, around £70,000 in housing benefit, £60,000 from the Independent Living Fund, £74,000 in income support and £15,000 disability living allowance.

Instead of his parents being dead, they in fact came to the UK on visitor visas and then allegedly acted as his carers. They now live in London and claim pension tax credits and housing benefit, totalling about £2,000 a month. But Bouzalim also owned a property in Leyton, east London, which he rented out for £1,200 a month.

Bouzalim, who speaks six languages including the Afghan language Pashto, was given exceptional leave to remain when he arrived in the UK in 2001.

He was granted indefinite leave to remain in April 2007 and granted British Citizenship in June 2009.

At Isleworth Crown Court, he admitted 11 counts of deception, fraud and assisting illegal entry into the UK.

Three other family members pleaded guilty to defrauding Camden Council.

Camden Council and the Department for Work and Pensions have both been contacted by BBC London but have not responded regarding the case.

Well, I don't know about you lot, but this really warms my cockles. I feel all warm and fuzzy to know that I work for a living to pay for the sick, lame and lazy.

In short, I am sick of seeing demonstrations about NHS reforms, disability reforms, and wellfare reforms when quite clearly, as the above story shows, they need fething reforming! And secondly, is it just me, or does it seem far too easy to ram your fist into the state cookie jar?

So my question is, do you agree or disagree with Mr Cameron's recent proposals, such as a cap on child and state benefits?

So one crook is representative of all receiving care?

By that same token I can probable google and find any number of stories of soldiers doing illegal/horrible things. Does that mean all soldiers are deserving of ridicule?

Of course not.

Come on Mattrym, at least pretend to apply a little common sense to these discussions...

**Vulcan**

There is a world of difference between someone genuinely crippled and this con man. (What? No one checked his medical records? No one checked in with his doctor? They just took his word for it?)

Punish the con man for being a con man. Don't punish the cripple for being a cripple.

**alarmingrick**

You make a great point CT, but there seriously needs to be much better monitoring, inspecting or some kind of oversight.
Just think of the waste that could be eliminated. If you incurred some additional costs, the waste you eliminate could more
than cover them.

I've known people all through out my life that have had some form of welfare that literally saved them from fates much worse.
and they didn't make it a career or way of life. Bad seeds in anything sour the impression of anything they are a part of. we shouldn't
throw out everyone because of a few scammers.

**AustonT**

CT GAMER wrote:So one crook is representative of all receiving care?
Come on Mattrym, at least pretend to apply a little common sense to these discussions...

ONE. I'd laugh in your face of that were possible. I don't even live in the UK and I know welfare fraud is a problem, more than that the system has problems outside of fraud like say the marriage penalty. So married couple defraud the system on the regular.

**Jihadin**

Hhhmmmm

PTSD is 50% disability
Loss of movement in left shoulder and chronic pain now is 20%
Both feet shattered and no longer to run is like 20%

waiting on my rating but seems 80%...is a crazy mathmatical scheme to figure out multiple claims.

I can still walk, drive, have sex, drink..well after they lessen the drugs, work and upkeep of my home. I deserve my 80% plus retirement a month but I paid that price to get there.

Each year I have to reeval to maintain my disability pay at 80% and since I won't be active duty any longer I'm not going to "tough it out".

Does this make me a bad person to?

Point is if VA require me to reeval each year then why not everybody else since its gov't money?

**Melissia**

So rather than decreasing the benefits, shouldn't you want to increase the regulation? I certainly would agree that effective regulation is needed to cut down on fraud. But then again, given the inherent and irrational fear many people have regarding anything regulatory, I'm not sure how that'll be responded to.

**Jihadin**

The response will be bad because the perception probaly involve an individual medical history. HIPPA will be used to block any inquire into a person physical/mental condition.

**Melissia**

Jihadin wrote:The response will be bad because the perception probaly involve an individual medical history. HIPPA will be used to block any inquire into a person physical/mental condition.

lol, sorry for the confusion-- I was responding to AustinT's post, not yours.

**Jihadin**

Tis all good

**AustonT**

Melissia wrote:
Jihadin wrote:The response will be bad because the perception probaly involve an individual medical history. HIPPA will be used to block any inquire into a person physical/mental condition.
lol, sorry for the confusion-- I was responding to AustinT's post, not yours.

I don't remember saying that they should reduce benefits. The UK has a much more comprehensive social system than we do, weather right or wrong many depend on it. The problem that it needs to be reformed not expanded, not cut but reformed and then funds adjusted.

**Kilkrazy**

biccat wrote:
Easy E wrote:Question: Should we create systems that punish everyone for the misdeeds of a few, or should we instead focus on accomplishing the goal of the system and ignore the few that exploit it?

You're assuming that the bulk of the system goes to people who legitimately deserve benefits. This may not be true.

The original point is a false dichotomy as it is possible to accomplish the core goal and without having to ignore benefit fraud.

Under the UK system, investigations of benefit fraud, and other stats, seem to show that the great majority of benefits go to people who are legally entitled to them.

The question of whether they deserve them is another matter.

**Jihadin**

Think for the US its more Unemployment benefits to Disability benefits.

**InquisitorVaron**

I know someone who did a backflip of a mountain whilst skiing broke his back and can't move anymore, he has trouble with getting money and has been wrongly cut off plenty of times.

So you affect the poeple that really need it, I better solution would be to make them have Incremental payment, starting off very low to cover the costs of surprise visit at 2 Month intervals, after passing them or whatever they get more pay until they get up to what we class as normal now.

I think better background checks ans Immigration laws are what are to blame, I'm all for multiculture but not at our expense or when it promotes illegal activities. Forged passports and the like.

**mattyrm**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
mattyrm wrote: Exactly, and thus we arrive at the crux of the argument. I believe we should make it harder to get benefits, and make them pay less.

Right, so even those with no hope of returning to work deserve less too, because, it'll set an example to others not to have serious disabilities.

Yes.

**Joey**

Are you trolling? Or would you rather, instead of paying x amount to help people who're disabled, their loved ones worked less in order to look after them full time, thereby denying the economy of 2x wealth?

**purplefood**

I'm all for reformation...
That and harsher sentencing for those who cheat the system. Though it would depend on magnitude as well.