Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I was looking at some models of orks that my friend purchased the other day, and I thought to my self, that they looked like old propaganda posters that portrayed the Germans as barbarians.... As a history major this peaked my curiousity and i purchased a couple orks to paint how I imagined they would looked like in the posters. i'll upload the pictures tonight but i wanted to get your opinion on the idea first.

(on a side note i don't commend anything the Nazi's did, nor do i mean to upset anyone)

As long as there are no swastikas I don't see what's wrong with it, it's a very interesting part of history, and I see no reason why models shouldn't be painted in ww2 german style in a universe full of ww1 and 2 style armies

A lot of the old ork models looked like they were dressed as World War-era German soldiers. Especially the old storm boyz. Sounds like you've run into some of them.

I think you may have confused WW1 German Military attire with WW2 Nazi German military attire. The two are very different, and the way some of the models are styled for Orks I believe resemble the former. The propaganda posters you have seen portraying Germans as barbarians are almost certainly from WW1.

The WW1 attire was likened to a Prussian Military tradition that was attached to Imperialistic ideals of the 19th century. At that time, Germany was ruled by a "Kaiser", and was arguably not the "evil bad guy" they were in WW2.

WW2 Germany was a godless fascist military aggressor state, with a maniacal dictator who brainwashed millions of his own people and was responsible for some of the most horrendous atrocities ever committed. This is a taboo subject as you well know. Uniforms were also done by Hugo Boss. so there is a distinct look that differs from the WW1 military fatigues.

I'd say to avoid any thing that is likened to the Nazis. I wouldn't say there is anything incredibly wrong if you want to use Iron Crosses or the German variant of the Maltese Cross, but definitely avoid Swastikas and the Red/Black/White Nazi color scheme.

With that aside, great idea.

LazzurusMan wrote:As long as there are no swastikas I don't see what's wrong with it, it's a very interesting part of history, and I see no reason why models shouldn't be painted in ww2 german style in a universe full of ww1 and 2 style armies

Well they have one on the center of their helmet and a flag on their blades. As i said i'm painting them allthough they were in a propaganda poster, not nessisarly if they were actual field troops. (more like a caricature)

It's not glorifying or promoting it, he is just trying to do something interesting with models that look similar to soldiers from our own history, they just happen to resemble Nazi's. It shouldn't offend anybody, the Nazi's were a huge part of history. Why couldn't he put a swastika on the models? Maybe we should just burn all records of the Nazis and forget all about every horrible event in history while were at it? I don't understand how someone could be offended by a NON-NAZI finding some miniatures that resemble Nazi's and painting them accordingly. I'm sure if they looked like British red coats he'd be painting them to look like red coats. It's obviously not motivated by rhetoric, just style. I say go for it, its historical and interesting. Post pictures when its completed.

All this soft-stepping when around Nazi-like things. I wonder if FoW players do this.

Reckoner wrote:Red/Black/White Nazi color scheme

Hmmm, well, yes, but some peeps will see nazis everywhere. It's not uncommon to see those colours used on any army as it is a particularly striking combination.
My Inquisition GK (old codex) had a red/white/black scheme straight out of the codex. Red banners with Inquisition 'I's on them.
Got called out for it at a tournament. TO told them to bugger off.

"a godless fascist military aggressor state, with a maniacal dictator who brainwashed millions of his own people and was responsible for some of the most horrendous atrocities ever committed."

Sounds like the Imperium of man, to a T.

Except they like to pretend they have a god, 'ceptin' he's "not dead yet".

CuddlySquig wrote:All this soft-stepping when around Nazi-like things. I wonder if FoW players do this.

I have no shame in saying...I dig the Nazi aesthetic. From the colors, to the sharp uniforms, to the weapons and equipment that performed as good as it looked.


Im not saying I approve of their deeds, but I dig their style. Im also a huge fan of the Tiger I...for all its flaws I just love the machine.

Indeed, if they had one thing, it was style.

Yes they did have style for sure.

Mad4Minis wrote:

CuddlySquig wrote:All this soft-stepping when around Nazi-like things. I wonder if FoW players do this.

I have no shame in saying...I dig the Nazi aesthetic. From the colors, to the sharp uniforms, to the weapons and equipment that performed as good as it looked.


Im not saying I approve of their deeds, but I dig their style. Im also a huge fan of the Tiger I...for all its flaws I just love the machine.

To be fair, that was the point - before the war, the Nazi party was a highly charismatic party for the people and the uniforms were designed to look good. No one should feel bad for sharing their aesthetic tastes (and after all, Hitler was an artist before he turned his hand to politics and evil - albeit, a failed one).

And as far as aesthetics go; we wouldn't have the commissar figure second from the right on my sig if not for it

It's not glorifying or promoting it, he is just trying to do something interesting with models that look similar to soldiers from our own history, they just happen to resemble Nazi's. It shouldn't offend anybody, the Nazi's were a huge part of history. Why couldn't he put a swastika on the models? Maybe we should just burn all records of the Nazis and forget all about every horrible event in history while were at it? I don't understand how someone could be offended by a NON-NAZI finding some miniatures that resemble Nazi's and painting them accordingly. I'm sure if they looked like British red coats he'd be painting them to look like red coats. It's obviously not motivated by rhetoric, just style. I say go for it, its historical and interesting. Post pictures when its completed.

First off, those models don't look like Nazis as I thought I had made clear earlier in my post. Rather, they are styled after First World War German troops. I'm quite certain Games Workshop would not risk the amount of criticism and flak they would recieve if they created miniatures to look like Nazis. EDIT: Commissars are more resemblant of Russian Officer uniform. The word "Commissar" itself is a Russian derivative.

Second, it is YOUR opinion that it "shouldn't" offend anybody, and by that logic we could also start painting models in Blackface, because hey, slavery and Jim Crow were a big part of history. See how many African Americans that doesn't offend. Go ahead and tell 'em that you aren't "promoting" racism.

Third, you fail to recognize that Nazi symbols like the swastika can cut very deep with people who were more involved in what happened in the Holocaust and World War 2, or their family members. Fortunately, you were not involved in such things and so I can recognize that you are unable to understand how people can be hurt or offended by seeing someone painting symbols that represented severe hatred, mass murder, and intolerance. You have obviously never seen a Holocaust survivor break down at the mention of the Nazis, or at the sight of a Swastika, and you surely can not understand the sort of feelings that dwell within those people. While it may not offend most, that symbol can cause tremendous duress and grief for some, and it is a constant reminder of what they lost, their families, their livelihood, and their humanity. Jews, Slavs, Romani, homosexuals and racial minorities were all murdered under the image of the swastika. That doesn't even include the millions of Allied soldiers who were killed or wounded fighting against that same image. If you think that symbol has lost meaning for members of those groups, you're wrong.

Lastly, it's quite ridiculous to compare consideration to censorship. Why would we ever think of burning historical records? There is a difference between respecting what happened in the past and ignoring it, and I do think that painting models with swastikas on them is disrespectful of the past. You think of comparing Nazis to British Red Coats, a uniform worn by British soldiers on a global scale during the height of the British Empire, just because Americans fought a revolution against them? I'm sorry, but there is no comparison between the American Revolution and Nazism.

To the OP, if you want to paint your models with Nazi symbols on them, nobody can stop you. I'm giving you cautionary advice that they will likely cause offense to some people, and it's up to you to decide whether or not you care.

I really wish people could leave hatred and political outlooks out of this stuff. I mean I see what Reckoner means but at the same time, if people are offended by a Nazi (or WW1 German Millitary) paint scheme then they should also be complaining about pretty much any WW2 era game that lets a play Nazi's... Can we just drop the politics and enjoy a good paint scheme together as colleagues?

I really wish people could leave hatred and political outlooks out of this stuff. I mean I see what Reckoner means but at the same time, if people are offended by a Nazi (or WW1 German Millitary) paint scheme then they should also be complaining about pretty much any WW2 era game that lets a play Nazi's... Can we just drop the politics and enjoy a good paint scheme together as colleagues?

I agree, and the paint color scheme here is not really the big issue. Rather the swastika itself is what I wanted to warn about, it is that symbol that may cause people to take offense.

I say feel free to use the symbolism that you wish to use, but be prepared to defend why you chose to use it and the history behind it.

I am going to get a bit pedantic here... The swastika has been around far longer than the Nazi party who adopted it. The symbol originally was for the four winds. The Finnish also used a Swastika (albeit light blue vs black) during that period. The symbol also comes up in Tibetan symbolism and others. So yes, even though it has much further reaching history, because of the recentness and the magnitude of the events that occurred, most people only ever associate it with those things. Really the same can be said of the pentagram. It is a symbol most associate with things of evil or the devil, but that is simply not the case. It is a symbol that represents the four elements and the spirit. Even the celtic cross is a form of pentagram, with each of the arms of the cross replacing a point and the circle at the junction being representative of the spirit.

So my point? Yes, certain symbols have been associated with bad things in our history. Is the symbol itself bad? No. You need to step back and think before going off and take it in the intended context. A lot of the worlds issues (and 'flame wars') could be avoided if people would take some time to think and not go off half cocked.

Kommissar Grotnob demands an apology for zee implicashuns zat zee old Orks look like Nazis!



well, maybe a little...

Shhh.... Those ones are in disguise behind an imperial formation... good disquises...

Benamint wrote:I really wish people could leave hatred and political outlooks out of this stuff. I mean I see what Reckoner means but at the same time, if people are offended by a Nazi (or WW1 German Millitary) paint scheme then they should also be complaining about pretty much any WW2 era game that lets a play Nazi's... Can we just drop the politics and enjoy a good paint scheme together as colleagues?

There's a difference between a game modeled to follow WW2 (FoW, etc). (any many people don't use the swastika when painting those units anyway) and taking space orks and purposely giving them a Nazi makeover.

Also, please don't water offense over Nazi's and swastikas down to "politics". It's offensive.

Germantoast wrote:So I was looking at some models of orks that my friend purchased the other day, and I thought to my self, that they looked like old propaganda posters that portrayed the Germans as barbarians.

Has to do with the fact that only Polish companies do Nazi orks and almost all Polish miniature companies do this. Incidently, the Germans=Nazis argument is the major election campaign theme of the nationalist party in the last two national elections. And two years ago, the Polish booth on the biggest German games fair had three board games: 2 fighting against the Germans and one fighting against the Russians. So anti-German toys are popular in that country. I am proud to say that I am not aware of any anti-Polish toys in Germany and that there is no market for such things.

Benamint wrote:I really wish people could leave hatred and political outlooks out of this stuff. I mean I see what Reckoner means but at the same time, if people are offended by a Nazi (or WW1 German Millitary) paint scheme then they should also be complaining about pretty much any WW2 era game that lets a play Nazi's... Can we just drop the politics and enjoy a good paint scheme together as colleagues?

As much as I kind of agree with this statement, I also don't ONLY because Warhammer 40k is not about ww2 era wargaming. But giving the context of a swastika mixes that dash of politics in there that always makes things more complicated, ya know? I could create a chess set that was Allies vs. Axis that was in no way a ww2 wargame, but still held that same political spark, ya know?

@OP: The German's had style. They were badass in their military. The Nazi party took power in government so fast it wasn't funny. They were really good at stuff. But... some of that stuff wasn't really all that nice. Might I suggest that, as much as you want to create your Orks in the likeness of the Nazi party, might you replace the swastika symbol with a custom symbol of your own making? Keep the colors, keep everything else. While playing your orks, pretend a german accent if you want, but a different symbol would help to alleviate the associated distress, and cause a need for fluff of your own design.

Ultimately, you decide.

I think it really depends what parts of the World War II German forces you're trying to represent. There is a difference in uniform between your average German Soldier and an SS Officer, there is as also a difference between using the Iron Cross and using the Swastika. It depends on which one you are trying to represent.

I agree with other, that hey it's your Army do what you want. However I personally would find the Swastika specifically, to be offensive.

CuddlySquig wrote:
All this soft-stepping when around Nazi-like things. I wonder if FoW players do this.

In Fow players are representing actual military hardware, you can argue it's historical. IMO it's harder to argue the same point when putting swastikas on Orks.

Edited for grammar

I say feel free to use the symbolism that you wish to use, but be prepared to defend why you chose to use it and the history behind it.

I am going to get a bit pedantic here... The swastika has been around far longer than the Nazi party who adopted it. The symbol originally was for the four winds. The Finnish also used a Swastika (albeit light blue vs black) during that period. The symbol also comes up in Tibetan symbolism and others. So yes, even though it has much further reaching history, because of the recentness and the magnitude of the events that occurred, most people only ever associate it with those things. Really the same can be said of the pentagram. It is a symbol most associate with things of evil or the devil, but that is simply not the case. It is a symbol that represents the four elements and the spirit. Even the celtic cross is a form of pentagram, with each of the arms of the cross replacing a point and the circle at the junction being representative of the spirit.

So my point? Yes, certain symbols have been associated with bad things in our history. Is the symbol itself bad? No. You need to step back and think before going off and take it in the intended context. A lot of the worlds issues (and 'flame wars') could be avoided if people would take some time to think and not go off half cocked.

Yeah, I can appreciate what you're saying here. I am quite aware of the various historical usages of popular symbols, and so is anyone who read "The Da Vinci Code". But the title of this thread is not "Tibetan Priest Orks". A symbol is nothing without its meaning, and who gives a symbol its meaning? We do. The half-cocked black swastika is what most people commonly associate with the Nazi Party, that is what we are talking about here, not historical symbology.

commissarbob wrote:I say feel free to use the symbolism that you wish to use, but be prepared to defend why you chose to use it and the history behind it.

I am going to get a bit pedantic here... The swastika has been around far longer than the Nazi party who adopted it. The symbol originally was for the four winds. The Finnish also used a Swastika (albeit light blue vs black) during that period. The symbol also comes up in Tibetan symbolism and others. So yes, even though it has much further reaching history, because of the recentness and the magnitude of the events that occurred, most people only ever associate it with those things. Really the same can be said of the pentagram. It is a symbol most associate with things of evil or the devil, but that is simply not the case. It is a symbol that represents the four elements and the spirit. Even the celtic cross is a form of pentagram, with each of the arms of the cross replacing a point and the circle at the junction being representative of the spirit.

So my point? Yes, certain symbols have been associated with bad things in our history. Is the symbol itself bad? No. You need to step back and think before going off and take it in the intended context. A lot of the worlds issues (and 'flame wars') could be avoided if people would take some time to think and not go off half cocked.

While a swastika in it's initial form is not necisarrily offensive, putting it on something with the label "Nazi" makes it quite a bit worse. Imo, there's nothing wrong with having Nazi Orks, as the styles of the WWII German army were flashy and charismatic, I would refrain from putting a swastika on it as this implies a direct connection to one of the darkest events in human history.

Squidmanlolz wrote:
Imo, there's nothing wrong with having Nazi Orks, as the styles of the WWII German army were flashy and charismatic,

I want to reiterate that there is a difference between members of the German Army and members of the Nazi party during WWII. While it's true that some members of the German Army were also members of the Nazi Party (less that 50% according to the statics I found), a majority of them were not.

German Army Orks wouldn't bother me in the least, even if you used the Iron Cross. Nazi Orks with Swastikas would bother me personally, an a lot of other people IMO.

I wouldn't mind an iron cross as it is a common military symbol in many militaries and I don't really associate it with only the Germans.

@ Recliner-

#1- they look just like Nazi soldier uniforms from WWII
#2- In what universe could you compare what I said to modelling black face models? It's doesn't make sense, your example isn't even war related. Funny how you slammed my red coat comparison after that comment. Also, there is a lot about the imperium that is Nazi-like. Read the fluff, a lot of their actions and feelings about groups of beings and universal cleansing are Nazi-like beliefs. So I guess GW does "go there" everyday.
#3- you don't know me so you can't say that I haven't seen the worst of the world. I am an Army Infantry Afghanistan Veteran and I've seen horrors you could probably never comprehend unless you've been there yourself. I was wounded twice, blown up with a rocket, and shot in the arm. I've watched friends scream and cry until they were dead, so don't assume I couldn't relate a bit with the atrocities of human existence.
#3- that being said people shouldn't be limited to what they're painting on their WAR models if they are using colors and symbols from participants of past WARS (not blackface, dumb comparison) so long as its not done maliciously regardless of what anybody thinks about it. It's a free country, paint what you want and don't let anyone try and guilt you into abandoning a cool looking paint job and style just because they don't like it. if they were wearing regular ork uniforms and someone just slapped a swastika on them for no reason then its a problem, but with the uniforms these guys are wearing people should understand its just a historical reference.

Well, I support the paint scheme, I find it absolutely hilarious considering the Germans in both World Wars were exceptionally disciplined, whereas Orks are......well.....orky, lol. As for people giving gak about the paint scheme, the truth is that the 'Nazis' were a political party, the German army was the Wermacht, and the people killing the Jews were the SS troops Germany's secret police, and in a long way about it, the German people themselves by not taking a stand and saying no. I mean....sure, he could try silencing them....but, during war, against ones own people? Ehh. The Germans didnt mind, so they didnt stop it. The Wermacht were just good soldiers doing what they had to in a time of war, and honestly, had the Germans won, and been writing the history, the shoe would certainly be on the other foot. How would you feel if somebody considered your whole military history taboo just because of something that happened in your country by forces that didnt actually involve the military? Try to be fair guys. Its just a paint scheme, and I think its an interesting idea. I also think that I would REALLY like to see some Stormboy Sturmtroopers! ^.^

@ Recliner-

#1- they look just like Nazi soldier uniforms from WWII
#2- In what universe could you compare what I said to modelling black face models? It's doesn't make sense, your example isn't even war related. Funny how you slammed my red coat comparison after that comment. Also, there is a lot about the imperium that is Nazi-like. Read the fluff, a lot of their actions and feelings about groups of beings and universal cleansing are Nazi-like beliefs. So I guess GW does "go there" everyday.
#3- you don't know me so you can't say that I haven't seen the worst of the world. I am an Army Infantry Afghanistan Veteran and I've seen horrors you could probably never comprehend unless you've been there yourself. I was wounded twice, blown up with a rocket, and shot in the arm. I've watched friends scream and cry until they were dead, so don't assume I couldn't relate a bit with the atrocities of human existence.
#3- that being said people shouldn't be limited to what they're painting on their WAR models if they are using colors and symbols from participants of past WARS (not blackface, dumb comparison) so long as its not done maliciously regardless of what anybody thinks about it. It's a free country, paint what you want and don't let anyone try and guilt you into abandoning a cool looking paint job and style just because they don't like it. if they were wearing regular ork uniforms and someone just slapped a swastika on them for no reason then its a problem, but with the uniforms these guys are wearing people should understand its just a historical reference.

I'm assuming that by "Recliner", you meant to type "Reckoner", just a few mixed up letters there. I hope you realize that by bringing up Blackface, I wasn't referencing a military related taboo. Rather, it was a relevant example of an inappropriate representation for an individual to decorate their model with. The Nazi Swastika can hold a similar amount of offensive meaning to the groups that were persecuted by the Nazis as the depiction of Blackface would hold to African Americans who were oppressed in the United States. What does war have to do with it? Does war somehow mitigate the effects of offensiveness? Of course not.

Regardless of the fluff in 40k, none of it is blatantly portraying Nazism. We aren't going to ignore ideas of xenophobia, ultra-right military rule, or even mass murder just because they were aspects of Nazi Germany. What GW does not do is create models to be painted with Swastikas and resemble Nazis, SS, Einsatzgruppen or another branch of that power.

And you're right, I don't know you, I don't know what you do or where you've been; frankly I don't care to know. Anyone can say anything on the internet, you say you're a wounded Infantry Veteran from the war in Afganistan. Even if that's true, it still doesn't give you the right to pass judgement on what should and shouldn't offend people. You chose to join the military, and you knew and accepted the risks of duty. What happened to people in the Holocaust was completely unfathomable and they had absolutely no say in the matter. Millions of lives were lost under a symbol, and you are arguing that it is perfectly fine for that symbol to be painted on hobby models and that it won't offend anybody. It isn't about what the intention is, it's about what people take away from it. What would you say if someone painted miniatures that trivialzed issues like American soldiers in Iraq? Christianity? 9/11? Would it be okay for me to make a diorama of a Jihadist Ork Fighta-Bomba crashing into two towers? Could be a "cool paint job", and it's a historical reference. Doesn't make it OK to do.