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On page.24 in the rulebook, in the going to ground box, it is written that you may choose to add a marker next to the unit going to ground. It also says "you may alternatively want to lay the models down". This makes the models easier to hide behind terrain, effectively blocking TLOS. Legal, cheesy or OK? Just wondering.

Legal and cheesy by the sounds of it.

If GTG had to be declared in your own turn I would have no problem with it blocking TLOS.

Jefffar wrote:Legal and cheesy by the sounds of it.

No, it is not "Legal" to lay the models down and have it affect LoS.

The laying of the models down only is to represent their GTG status. This does not effect the LoS of models shooting at them.
If you want to play it that it does effect the LoS of models shooting at them, then, since you are not given permission to stand them back up, they must stay that way for the rest of the game, and will not be able to shoot at anything.

Just use a marker, its easier.

DeathReaper wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Legal and cheesy by the sounds of it.

No, it is not "Legal" to lay the models down and have it affect LoS.

The laying of the models down only is to represent their GTG status. This does not effect the LoS of models shooting at them.
If you want to play it that it does effect the LoS of models shooting at them, then, since you are not given permission to stand them back up, they must stay that way for the rest of the game, and will not be able to shoot at anything.

Just use a marker, its easier.

This assertion has no basis in fact - or logic. The rule explicitly states you may choose to lay the models down. If a firing unit is unable to draw line of sight to that unit through TLOS rules, they cannot fire. There is no need to inject imaginary rules about how they cannot then stand back up.

HOWEVER, you would not be able to avoid shooting from the original shooters to target that unit. Because you may only go to ground after the enemy has rolled hits and wounds, line of sight has already been established. This tactic would only protect you from other shooting units that now cannot draw line of sight as a result of you going to ground.

Baneblade has it. The LOS rules don't tell you to pretend that the models are standing up when they aren't. You draw LOS to the actual position of the models at all times.

Which is exactly why I prefer to use a marker instead. Laying the models down causes all sorts of headaches, between LOS shenanigans, and models moving as they go up or down... using a marker is easier, and less likely to result in wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And, as was pointed out, that unit is never allowed to stand back up again, so will not be shooting for the rest of the game.

Attempts at playing shenanigans will be met in kind

Is there a rule that prevents models that are laying down from shooting, then? (Apart from the fact that they'll have a harder time drawing TLOS too).

Boneblade wrote:This assertion has no basis in fact - or logic. The rule explicitly states you may choose to lay the models down.
This tactic would only protect you from other shooting units that now cannot draw line of sight as a result of you going to ground.

I will show you the facts and logic of why the models are there for LoS purposes.

Let me Quote the BRB Page 24, under Going to Ground, 2nd Paragraph: "...you can declare that the unit is going to ground. To represent this, place a suitable marker next to the unit (you may alternatively want to lay the models down)."

So the models lay down ONLY to represent the unit has gone to ground. The Models are not given permission to lay down for LoS purposes.

So the models are in the exact same position for LoS purposes.
your "Tactic" is not legal.

Shandara wrote:Is there a rule that prevents models that are laying down from shooting, then? (Apart from the fact that they'll have a harder time drawing TLOS too).

You will not be able to draw LoS to anything laying on your face.

You will not be able to draw LoS to much of anything laying on your back.

Shandara wrote:Is there a rule that prevents models that are laying down from shooting, then? (Apart from the fact that they'll have a harder time drawing TLOS too).

That's about it, really. Drawing LOS from them becomes rather problematic.

DeathReaper wrote:I will show you the facts and logic of why the models are there for LoS purposes.

Let me Quote the BRB Page 24, under Going to Ground, 2nd Paragraph: "...you can declare that the unit is going to ground. To represent this, place a suitable marker next to the unit (you may alternatively want to lay the models down)."

So the models lay down ONLY to represent the unit has gone to ground. The Models are not given permission to lay down for LoS purposes.

Your conclusion isn't based on anything that you just quoted. You lay them down to represent GtG status. It doesn't say that this has no other effect on the game, or that you should still treat the models as if they are upright.

It probably should... but then, ideally, it wouldn't tell us to lay them down in the first place.

DeathReaper wrote:
You will not be able to draw LoS to anything laying on your face.

You will not be able to draw LoS to much of anything laying on your back.

You're explicitly allowed to draw LOS through members of the unit which is shooting. . . which includes the MODEL that is shooting. Yes, models can see through their own heads. That being so, in many circumstances a model which was laying down COULD draw LOS from their eyes to some other unit.

Now, a lot of the time some small bump in the game table would get in the way. But it certainly isn't impossible. That said, it would be a real pain and screw up the game in many other ways, so just use a marker instead. Laying down will cause so many problems as to obviate the tiny advantage you might get.

Wrong, as you draw LOS from *behind* the model *to* the target. You cannot see through your own head, as the direction LOS is drawn in does not allow it.

No, you draw LOS from the target's eyes.

BRB wrote:Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the barget unit

Looking from behind the firing model is merely a way the book recommends you confirm that LOS is present. Looking from behind the model is never made a requirement.

Furthermore, even if that WAS a requirement, nowhere does it say you actually have to look through your models; so if you have models lying face-down, it's entirely possible to "[take] in the view from behind the firing models", exactly as stated, and still see an enemy unit by looking forwards over their back.

How can you look from behind the mdoel (which is facing the sky) and see anything but the sky?

insaniak wrote:Your conclusion isn't based on anything that you just quoted. You lay them down to represent GtG status. It doesn't say that this has no other effect on the game, or that you should still treat the models as if they are upright.

It probably should... but then, ideally, it wouldn't tell us to lay them down in the first place.

To represent GTG you lay the model down That is it, laying the model down represents GTG nothing else, as it does not say it represents anything other than the GTG Status.

BeRzErKeR wrote:You're explicitly allowed to draw LOS through members of the unit which is shooting. . . which includes the MODEL that is shooting. Yes, models can see through their own heads. That being so, in many circumstances a model which was laying down COULD draw LOS from their eyes to some other unit.

Models can not see through their own heads. If the above were true Vehicles would not block their own LoS.

nosferatu1001 wrote:How can you look from behind the mdoel (which is facing the sky) and see anything but the sky?

If a model is laying face-down, its back is facing upwards. Anything above the model is therefore behind it; and there is no requirement, if you think that LOS is drawn from behind the model, to look in any particular direction. If the model is laying face-UP, then no, you can't look from behind it without getting underneath the table, and then, of course, you won't be able to draw LOS to anything.

Except, of course, that that isn't true; LOS is drawn from the model's eyes, and it doesn't matter where the player is.

DeathReaper wrote:Models can not see through their own heads. If the above were true Vehicles would not block their own LoS.

Vehicle-mounted weapons have their own LOS rules, governed by the rules on on pages 58 and 59. Since LOS has to be drawn along the barrel of the weapon, you cannot shoot weapons through the vehicle for the simple reason that the gun barrel cannot physically pass through the model. The geometry of the model is why they block LOS; the fact that models can 'see' through themselves is irrelevant. If at some point GW releases a vehicle which has a weapon that can point towards the vehicle carrying it then yes, that vehicle will be able to shoot through itself.

Here's a question; is a model in a unit not a member of that unit? Because, if it is, it can see through itself.

of course, if a model goes to ground it sacrifices it's next turn anyway, so there will be no shooting the following turn.

However if laying it down indicates that it has gone to ground, logically then standing it up would be done to signify the end of it's gone to ground status at the end of the controlling player's turn.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Vehicle-mounted weapons have their own LOS rules, governed by the rules on on pages 58 and 59. Since LOS has to be drawn along the barrel of the weapon, you cannot shoot weapons through the vehicle for the simple reason that the gun barrel cannot physically pass through the model. The geometry of the model is why they block LOS; the fact that models can 'see' through themselves is irrelevant. If at some point GW releases a vehicle which has a weapon that can point towards the vehicle carrying it then yes, that vehicle will be able to shoot through itself.

They have, Razorbacks with a Stormbolter can point the Stormbolter at the turret gun. So are you saying that the Stormbolter can draw LoS through the Turret, since the vehicle is a member of its own unit?

Page 58 and 59, that denotes how weapons fire.

Read the First Paragraph on P.58. "vehicles fire like other units." Also under Vehicle weapons & LoS (Same Page) "Just like infantry a vehicle needs to draw LoS..."

This establishes that all the rules for LoS for infantry apply to vehicles as well.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Except, of course, that that isn't true; LOS is drawn from the model's eyes, and it doesn't matter where the player is.

False. Re-read the LOS rules. Here, I'll quote it for you:

Many times however, it will be more difficult to tell if line of site is blocked or not, so players will have to stoop over the table for a 'model's eye view'. This means getting down to the level of your warriors, taking in the view from behind the firing models to 'see what they can see''.

emphasis added.

The geometry of the model is why they block LOS; the fact that models can 'see' through themselves is irrelevant. If at some point GW releases a vehicle which has a weapon that can point towards the vehicle carrying it then yes, that vehicle will be able to shoot through itself.

The BRB FAQ, page 4, 2nd question of the vehicles section says you are 100% wrong. A razorback cannot trace LoS through its main turret.

DeathReaper wrote:To represent GTG you lay the model down That is it, laying the model down represents GTG nothing else, as it does not say it represents anything other than the GTG Status.

Which still doesnt prove that you pretend the model is still standing up for all other purposes. The link you're looking for just isn't there. There is nothing that tells you to use anything other than the actual position of the model.

The fact that you lay it down to represent GTG means you only lay it down to represent GTG, and nothing else.

As it is my group just lays down 1 model. Doesn't change LOS too much, and if the one guy was the only visible model, oh well...

Happyjew wrote:As it is my group just lays down 1 model. Doesn't change LOS too much, and if the one guy was the only visible model, oh well...

Do you leave that model laying down?

You should, as you are not given permission to stand it up at any point after you lay it down.

DeathReaper wrote:The fact that you lay it down to represent GTG means you only lay it down to represent GTG, and nothing else.

Yes, you only lay it down to represent GtG. But the rules do not tell you to treat models that are laying down as standing up for any other purpose. They just revolve around the actual position of the model. It doesn't matter why the model is laying down. If that's how the model is positioned, then that is the model's LOS profile.

Oddly enough, that model has always been one of the ones who takes a wound.

rigeld2 wrote:
False. Re-read the LOS rules. Here, I'll quote it for you:

Many times however, it will be more difficult to tell if line of site is blocked or not, so players will have to stoop over the table for a 'model's eye view'. This means getting down to the level of your warriors, taking in the view from behind the firing models to 'see what they can see''.

emphasis added.

That's a paragraph in reference to the PLAYER, not the models. The player does not have any LOS; the models do.

Now read the paragraph directly below it.

Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model. . .

Emphasis added. Line of sight MUST be traced from the EYES of the firing model. You are not allowed to trace LOS from anywhere else; behind the model, the model's gun, feet, pelvis, base, nowhere except the eyes. This is the general rule governing LOS; in the absence of some more specific rule contradicting it, it must be followed.

The paragraph referring to 'behind the firing model' is an explanation of how you might approximate this, since of course a human being cannot physically look through a miniature's eyes. It in no way invalidates or contradicts the paragraph below, which explicitly says that you MUST draw LOS from the models eyes. And yes, this does break the game in the cases of models which don't have eyes. It's so fortunate that nobody plays by strict RAW.

rigeld2 wrote:
The BRB FAQ, page 4, 2nd question of the vehicles section says you are 100% wrong. A razorback cannot trace LoS through its main turret.

Which means that GW realized that their rules were stupid, and corrected them. From the rules in the BRB, it's entirely legal to draw LOS through a vehicle; models are allowed to draw LOS through members of their unit. A vehicle is a model, and of course it is a member of its own unit; therefore it can draw LOS through itself, provided that it can point the barrel of the weapon in question at such an angle as for a line projected forward from it to pass through the vehicle.

The FAQ removed this ability, presumably because GW staff felt it was too ridiculous. That's fine, but it doesn't change the way the rules in the BRB read.

Of course, none of this stuff matters at all in game; it only comes up when people bring up weird, hypothetical situations like laying their models down to prevent anyone from shooting at them. If you aren't trying to pull some strange kind of trick, these questions have no bearing on the situation.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
False. Re-read the LOS rules. Here, I'll quote it for you:

That's a paragraph in reference to the PLAYER, not the models. The player does not have any LOS; the models do.

Now read the paragraph directly below it.

Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model. . .

Emphasis added. Line of sight MUST be traced from the EYES of the firing model. You are not allowed to trace LOS from anywhere else; behind the model, the model's gun, feet, pelvis, base, nowhere except the eyes. This is the general rule governing LOS; in the absence of some more specific rule contradicting it, it must be followed.

Perhaps you didn't read that correctly. To check if you have LoS, you must get down behind the model and see what they see. Yes, you draw LoS from the eyes, with the player standing behind the model in question. Also, you said (and I quote):

BeRzErKeR wrote:Except, of course, that that isn't true; LOS is drawn from the model's eyes, and it doesn't matter where the player is.

So yes, it absolutely matters where the player is - the player must be behind the model.

Which means that GW realized that their rules were stupid, and corrected them. From the rules in the BRB, it's entirely legal to draw LOS through a vehicle; models are allowed to draw LOS through members of their unit. A vehicle is a model, and of course it is a member of its own unit; therefore it can draw LOS through itself, provided that it can point the barrel of the weapon in question at such an angle as for a line projected forward from it to pass through the vehicle.

So you were wrong? Just checking - remember that the FAQ is RAW.

Of course, none of this stuff matters at all in game; it only comes up when people bring up weird, hypothetical situations like laying their models down to prevent anyone from shooting at them. If you aren't trying to pull some strange kind of trick, these questions have no bearing on the situation.

100% agreed.

rigeld2 wrote:Perhaps you didn't read that correctly. To check if you have LoS, you must get down behind the model and see what they see.

That's not actually what the rules passage you quoted from says. It states that at some times LOS will be difficult to determine, and at those times players will need to get down behind the model and see what they can see from the model's perspective. It does not require you to always determine LOS in this manner... it's just a way of resolving it when whether or not the model has LOS isn't immediately apparent from wherever you happen to be standing.

insaniak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Perhaps you didn't read that correctly. To check if you have LoS, you must get down behind the model and see what they see.

That's not actually what the rules passage you quoted from says. It states that at some times LOS will be difficult to determine, and at those times players will need to get down behind the model and see what they can see from the model's perspective. It does not require you to always determine LOS in this manner... it's just a way of resolving it when whether or not the model has LOS isn't immediately apparent from wherever you happen to be standing.

I would say that surely applies if a model is laying on its face.

rigeld2 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
False. Re-read the LOS rules. Here, I'll quote it for you:

That's a paragraph in reference to the PLAYER, not the models. The player does not have any LOS; the models do.

Now read the paragraph directly below it.

Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model. . .

Emphasis added. Line of sight MUST be traced from the EYES of the firing model. You are not allowed to trace LOS from anywhere else; behind the model, the model's gun, feet, pelvis, base, nowhere except the eyes. This is the general rule governing LOS; in the absence of some more specific rule contradicting it, it must be followed.

Perhaps you didn't read that correctly. To check if you have LoS, you must get down behind the model and see what they see. Yes, you draw LoS from the eyes, with the player standing behind the model in question. Also, you said (and I quote):

BeRzErKeR wrote:Except, of course, that that isn't true; LOS is drawn from the model's eyes, and it doesn't matter where the player is.

So yes, it absolutely matters where the player is - the player must be behind the model.