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NeutronPoison wrote:
Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.


Tomb King Wrote:
Alright for the masses this game has been scheduled on vassal:

alright so:

JY2's MSU mech purifier spam(per his request I will be running this list) vs above nids list on Wednesday February 8th on vassal at 7:30 PM EST 8:30 PM CST. If you all would like to observe the game. The mission is modified annihilation. If one nid model survives the game he wins. Further info is listed in my previous post.

Deployment: Pitched Battle
Mission: If one nid model survives the game the nid player wins.
Explanation: This is to prove the OP of GK's and the ability of Nids to still compete with the Newer Codex's. I have never played with Grey Knights so I am riding on the codex and of course a few tricks I learned playing my other armies. This is to represent a new player picking up the army and being immediately competitive with it.

GK list:


Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
5x Strike Squad - 1x Psycannon, Rhino

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo



Battle Report will follow after the games completion tonight. However you all are more then welcome to come on vassal and watch the game yourselves as observers.


Pictures taken at the bottom of said gamer turn. I am tired I will have to populate the info of what happened tomorrow. Enjoy the pictures for now as they tell the tale.

Battle Report:
Initiative: Nids

Deployment:

He deployed as expected giving cover to the big guys. He infiltrated his units which is something I wasn't really planning on as I was hoping they would outflank and I could maybe ignore them for a little bit. However, with the infiltrate they could threaten me on turn 2 if they deemed it necessary to do so. I deployed far enough back so I could deny his Hive guard the chance to shoot me for atleast one turn maybe two. In addition, I wanted to maximize the amount of fire I could put down before he reached my lines.
Nid Turn 1:

Bottom of his turn see's the mass Nid army advance. The left genestealers move up a couple of inch's but stay in cover for a much desired cover save. His stealers in the middle remain behind the blocking terrain to wait for more forces before advancing. He drops FnP on all 3 tervigons
GK Turn 1:

Crowe runs in a circle to inspire the troops . I open up on the left genestealers and after the first few drop I put mass wounds on them and he elects to go to ground to try and save them and makes all the saves but mission accomplished threat mitigated. I direct all 4 dreadnoughts into the hive guard up front (I need that threat taken care of or atleast I need to pretend i do so I can shoot the tervigons in the next turns ) with 2 left alive he jumps to the ground as 4 wounds come in. He still fails 3 of them though so 1 is left on the ground with the threat mitigated I am somewhat happy with the turn regardless of the ineffective firing of the psycannons on the left flank.
Nid Turn 2:

The bug invasion continues to advance. The genestealers in the middle now run around the corner and prepare to make a run for me in the next turn. His back trygons move six but run 1" and 2" the other trygon moves up just fine. He keeps his tervigons all centrally located and drops FnP on one of them and then the 2 remaining hive guard units get the FnP. He shoots the 3 front hive guard and stuns and immobilizes my razorback.
GK Turn 2:

With a brokenly awesome fortitude test my razorback shakes off the stunned result. Crowe rush's to the right flank and then runs up he is doing great . My two vehicles on the right flank move up to get in range for future turns. What happens next is only 2 wounds on the back right tervigon and I manage to scare the middle squad with massive wounds from 8 psycannon shots so he takes ground and makes all the remaining saves. I kill total this turn: 4 genestealers 1 from the left squad 3 in the middle and 1 gaunt. So much for this mission if this keeps up its going to be a long game.

Nid Turn 3:

He advances and the gaunt spam begins. Luckily he doesnt roll too high and rolls double for the front tervigon. He drops FnP on all the tervigons. He shoots and penetrates my rhino on my side immobolizing it and stunning it. He will now be in my lines on his next turn. His trygons in the back are still running slow luckily.
GK Turn 3:

Fortitude works again man that is broken! Crowe advances on the right flank and even runs . I advance all units preparing for a counter charge along the lines if it is needed. My shooting finally shows up this turn as I lay into the genestealers knocking them down to 2 on the left flank and just the brood lord in the center. I unload mass amounts of fire onto the one trygon as it is now exposed and up front, it falls to the barrage. I fire on his tervigons again this time I drop it to 2 wounds left. I am still looking a little rough to pull this game off though.
Nid Turn 4:

Gaunts start shooting out of holes in the ground as they crowd my lines. He shoots and finally wrecks a rhino as the purifiers with the hammer step out they get shot by the tervigons and the gaunts... only 3 are left when the smoke clears. He moves his BL in the middle around the BLOS to get in on the action. He drops FnP on all of his tervigons. Next turn I will be assaulted whether I like it or not and poison gaunts dont sound fun. Crowe gets show by desperate gaunts on the right flank but he shakes it off.
GK Turn 4:

Crowe charges up like a man possessed as hellfire?? shoots out and kills most of the gaunts the combat is over before it even started as he consolidates towards the middle. Now that most of his army is within 24" the fire power is unleashed in full. I managed to kill the front tervigon and the back one gets left exposed without FnP, this results in two tervigons going down to mass fire and taking gaunts with them in the process. I shoot into the last of the genestealers and kill all 3 remaining models. This turn takes a massive swing in the GK direction in just one turn I have crippled his army beyond repair.
Nid Turn 5:

My opponent has little choice left and attempts to bum rush me with his remaining models. His tervigon drops FnP on the trygon behind it. He moves his hiveguard behind the building and continues to fire but to no avail. His far right gaunts move to protect there flank from crowe. His gaunts charge my squad and actually kill one psycannon and I only kill 1 in return locking the combat. His trygons move up to prepare to get into my face finally.
GK Turn 5:

Crowe moves up 6" and prepares for a epicness. The shrike squad moves up 12" and disembarks to fire into the gaunts. Mass fire kills the tervigon and takes 2 gaunts with it. My purifiers activate cleansing flame and do no damage but beat the remaining 3 gaunts before consolidating onto the wreck. Nearly all of my army shoots as his trygon that has FnP and it laughs it off only taking 1 or 2 wounds to rending as it makes every save with FnP. Combined fire from my right razorback and the shrike squad panics his gaunts. Crowe charges into his 3 man hive guard and only does 1 wound as he takes 1 wound lock combat.
Nid Turn 6:

He charges his trygons up in a last ditch effort to kill me. One makes it to combat with my 5 purifiers with the warding stave. My 4 halberds go first though and one pops up. I pass the test and instant kill the trygon. Crowe locks with the hive guard again but with shrikes standing by multiple shots available on his 1 wound hive guard and his trygon exposed to an army of shooting and assaulting he concedes the game.

Battle analysis: This was my first game with grey knights and I have to note that 1. Fortitude is broken. 2. That much firepower should never be allowed. 3. Force weapons that can instant kill 6 wound models are silly especially when your entire army has them. As for my opponent he was a great sport and the game was very easy going. Thanks to everyone who showed up to view the match. Look forward to maybe getting in some games with other dakka players. Conclusion GK= OP and Nids are uphill battle vs competitive grey knights even when tailored.

Tomb King Out!

It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon

A little over 30.

ShumaGorath wrote:

It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon

A little over 30.

Guess that would be tough to kill... if it were in fact a priority target while it has fnp. The big mean fellow will be welcomed with open arms if he makes it to my lines.

It'll be interesting to see how others play my list. Now you get to know how SabrX felt.

This won't be an easy battle for the GK's. My Crowe-Purifiers actually have problems with several builds - assault terminator Deathwing, Tau and Tervigon-tyranids. While it is possible to beat them, I have also lost to them badly as well (both battles were against Janthkin, who is an awesome tyranid player). A table wipe is near impossible, especially if he reserves his genes and/or play denial. You have 3 tervigons popping out termagants almost every turn. My army just doesn't have the capability to take on that many units (or rather, try to destroy that many units). As a matter of fact, very few armies can.

The main problem is the lack of mobility on my list, which makes it all but impossible to reach the farthest corners of the map should he place some units there.

Then you have to contend with the "new" hive guards. With their new FAQ, which I admit you 2 should discuss before the matchup, rhinos don't get cover from their impaler cannons even with smokes launched. At least that's what the majority of the people believe, though it is something you guys should discuss and agree upon before the game.

But the thing to watch out for is Shadows. If tyranids can provide enough Shadows coverage for their assault units, then they stand a good chance of beating the GK's. If not, well, then the GK's have a decent chance of winning, though it is far from a sure thing.

Good luck to the both of you.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If this was just a regular annihilation game, then I would say the GK's would win.

However, since the condition for a GK victory here is a board wipe, then I've got to say the victory belongs to nids.

However, since the condition for a GK victory here is a board wipe, then I've got to say the victory belongs to nids.

All reserve and come in from every direction and hide!

Tomb King wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon

A little over 30.

Guess that would be tough to kill... if it were in fact a priority target while it has fnp. The big mean fellow will be welcomed with open arms if he makes it to my lines.

That's why you use force weapons to take out the Trygon prime. It is most likely dead as soon as it enters assault with a bunch of halberds, and multiple units will reduce the chance of SITW having
a big impact. Use the Psycannons on more appropriate targets.

Kairos wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon

A little over 30.

Guess that would be tough to kill... if it were in fact a priority target while it has fnp. The big mean fellow will be welcomed with open arms if he makes it to my lines.

That's why you use force weapons to take out the Trygon prime. It is most likely dead as soon as it enters assault with a bunch of halberds, and multiple units will reduce the chance of SITW having
a big impact. Use the Psycannons on more appropriate targets.

Halberds and rad grenades will bring one down very quickly.

Will be tough to wipe the table, playing not to get tabled is not difficult. I voted GK will kill lots but not all. Of course the Nids hiding won't prove much toward the original idea of seeing how the armies match up.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kairos wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon

A little over 30.

Guess that would be tough to kill... if it were in fact a priority target while it has fnp. The big mean fellow will be welcomed with open arms if he makes it to my lines.

That's why you use force weapons to take out the Trygon prime. It is most likely dead as soon as it enters assault with a bunch of halberds, and multiple units will reduce the chance of SITW having
a big impact. Use the Psycannons on more appropriate targets.

Halberds and rad grenades will bring one down very quickly.

You did see the GK list that includes 0 rad grenades and MSU squads with 2 halberd apiece, right? The list above will be very hard pressed to kill a trygon prime. Your constant insistence that GK lists will have everything at the right time is baffling. Especially when the actual list is right there.

Dok wrote:The list above will be very hard pressed to kill a trygon prime. Your constant insistence that GK lists will have everything at the right time is baffling. Especially when the actual list is right there.

You're right, but keep in mind there are no T Primes in the above list either.

Very true. But given what is in that list, if the trygon charges (which is more likely) then the two halberds will get 2 hits and statistically 0 wounds. The trygon will then get ~ 6 hits and 5 wounds. Wiping the squad unless they have a warding staff. If the nid player is playing up and has a tervigon in sitw range (since they brought the fnp power into it, he would have to be somewhat close by) then the chances to even activate the force weapon go to <50%. The morale of the story is, it's hard to kill a CC monstrous creature with 5 dudes. (unless those dudes are TH/SS termies)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm not sure what is super tailored about that 'nid list. The broodlords are the only thing that I see that is not commonly used in a nid list. And the points from those would prolly be better spent making the trygons primes. AND be better against GK.
@The nid player: Don't forget the recent FAQ that makes impaler cannons ignore smoke. Those rhinos aren't gonna make it very far!

Dok wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kairos wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon

A little over 30.

Guess that would be tough to kill... if it were in fact a priority target while it has fnp. The big mean fellow will be welcomed with open arms if he makes it to my lines.

That's why you use force weapons to take out the Trygon prime. It is most likely dead as soon as it enters assault with a bunch of halberds, and multiple units will reduce the chance of SITW having
a big impact. Use the Psycannons on more appropriate targets.

Halberds and rad grenades will bring one down very quickly.

You did see the GK list that includes 0 rad grenades and MSU squads with 2 halberd apiece, right? The list above will be very hard pressed to kill a trygon prime. Your constant insistence that GK lists will have everything at the right time is baffling. Especially when the actual list is right there.

.

Dok wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kairos wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon

A little over 30.

Guess that would be tough to kill... if it were in fact a priority target while it has fnp. The big mean fellow will be welcomed with open arms if he makes it to my lines.

That's why you use force weapons to take out the Trygon prime. It is most likely dead as soon as it enters assault with a bunch of halberds, and multiple units will reduce the chance of SITW having
a big impact. Use the Psycannons on more appropriate targets.

Halberds and rad grenades will bring one down very quickly.

You did see the GK list that includes 0 rad grenades and MSU squads with 2 halberd apiece, right? The list above will be very hard pressed to kill a trygon prime. Your constant insistence that GK lists will have everything at the right time is baffling. Especially when the actual list is right there.

I was just talking about specific scenarios, I hadn't read the list because I don't particularly care. This whole endevour is stupid. If the nid player is smart he'll just reserve everything, come in on every inch of the board, go to ground every single turn, and win because he couldn't be tabled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

Dok wrote:The list above will be very hard pressed to kill a trygon prime. Your constant insistence that GK lists will have everything at the right time is baffling. Especially when the actual list is right there.

You're right, but keep in mind there are no T Primes in the above list either.

Oh gak son.

Vassal makes it really hard to judge TLOS, which has a huge impact on the game. Make sure you guys have models readily available and agree to how tall hills/terrain are to determine which models are 50% obscure or not. For an example, a squad of Gaunts are definitely not tall enough to 50% obscure MC, but Hive Guards are. Try not to use too much complete blocking TLOS walls or terrain. Of the 5 GW and LGS I've been to, such terrain pieces are rare as they create an unbalance in game. A few pieces are ok, but don't over do it.

Also, take note Vassal isn't 100% scaled.

Here's a pic of infantry disembarking 2" from the hull on vassal:

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu228/SabrX/VassalVSTableTop/RhinoSoBAlignment.jpg

Notice the 3rd row isn't within 2" of the blue area? If you use the measure thread option on vassal, it will say the tip of the 3rd sprite bases is 3" from the rear hull.

Now compare that to actual models in the following 3 pics of real models with tape measure:

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu228/SabrX/VassalVSTableTop/IMG_6148.jpg
http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu228/SabrX/VassalVSTableTop/IMG_6149.jpg
http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu228/SabrX/VassalVSTableTop/IMG_6150.jpg

As you can see, the actual models are all in fact within 2" of the rear hull.

My point is in Vassal, you can't disembark 9 standard 25mm bases from Rhino rear hull whereas in real life you can.

Despite the slight discrepancies of scale and no TLOS, Vassal40k is still a good tool for simulation. It also allows players, separated by distance, to play each other online.

I'm interested in the outcome of this match.

That's not the nid list I would have run, but I'm very interested in the outcome all the same. I don't really feel like this proves anything, but I think that the Tyranid army will do much better than anticipated. I suspect that "winning by a model" won't be a concern.

I won't be playing to avoid getting tabled. I will be playing to DEVOUR.

I don't really think the outcome of the game will prove anything, I just thought it would be fun if that 30-page thread about GKs resulted in some people actually having a game of Warhammer, even if it has to be a virtual one.

The only reason I say that this list is tailored for GKs is that it falls flat on its face against DE, and doesn't have a plan for a Jaws priest in a Rhino. Addressing those issues makes games against GKs tougher, but I honestly consider that more of a balance problem with DE and with Jaws than with GK.

Good luck Tomb King, and I hope to see y'all on Vassal to watch our game! I'll be "neutronicus" there rather than NeutronPoison.

Pretty much gonna have to go with nid victory as it's actually quite hard to table someone that spawns in like 30 guys a turn. Volume is just too high.

Would be a funny game if it was victory points though probably

NeutronPoison wrote:I won't be playing to avoid getting tabled. I will be playing to DEVOUR.

That's the spirit!

I don't really think the outcome of the game will prove anything, I just thought it would be fun if that 30-page thread about GKs resulted in some people actually having a game of Warhammer, even if it has to be a virtual one.

The only reason I say that this list is tailored for GKs is that it falls flat on its face against DE, and doesn't have a plan for a Jaws priest in a Rhino. Addressing those issues makes games against GKs tougher, but I honestly consider that more of a balance problem with DE and with Jaws than with GK.

Good luck Tomb King, and I hope to see y'all on Vassal to watch our game! I'll be "neutronicus" there rather than NeutronPoison.

The only problem I'm finding with nids is that it's almost impossible to come up with an all-comer's list that can handle both GK and DE. They are almost polar opposites in play-style and counter-tactics. A nid list that is good against 1 army will most often have problems with the other extreme and vice versa.

And then there is Draigowing, which is a whole other challenge for nids compared to Crowe-Purifiers. Nids even have problems against the 2 vastly different and competitive GK builds.

I believe the GK would win the fight ordinarily, but the special annihilation is puts the Nids in a winning position, imho.

ShumaGorath wrote:Oh gak son.

I know! in my face, right?

We have 2 and a half hours until gametime by my watch. I am really excited for this match-up.

Things to Know:
Only 3 Synapse creatures/shadow in the warp
Grey Knights have a clear fire power/range advantage

The game will comedown to how much damage I can inflict before combat is met. If I can do enough then victory is attainable. If my shooting does nothing then a pitched fight in the middle of the board will probably leave me as a late night dinner.

I got held up at work, sorry.

I'm on Vassal right now; whenever you're ready.

NeutronPoison wrote:I got held up at work, sorry.

I'm on Vassal right now; whenever you're ready.

Oh ok, thought this didnt start until 8:30 central time.. I guess we can kick it off now. Getting on.

Is anyone on this? How's it going so far? We demand LIVE COVERAGE!

Tk is playing a very cautious game. It's already turn 3 and not a whole lot has died. If just playing regular annihilation, I think GK's may be ahead by slightly.

So noted.. I appreciate the update. Unfortunately, it's bedtime. I'll check up tomorrow for the results. I trust someone is getting screenshots for the turn-by-turn though...

Victory Goes to the GK's at the top of 6 and a board wipe eminent the Nids concede. Conclusion GK= OP even against a tailored nid list. Also we had pruifiers instant gib a Trygon with only 2 force halberds striking. Its definitely viable to kill them before taking damage.

Screen shots will follow...

looking forward to hearing the story with the screen shots.

Pictures are in the OP. I will populate details tomorrow its late.

Only 5 of the 37 votes got it right and 2 said a toss up. GK were underestimated it seems.

Tomb King wrote:Victory Goes to the GK's at the top of 6 and a board wipe eminent the Nids concede. Conclusion GK= OP even against a tailored nid list. Also we had pruifiers instant gib a Trygon with only 2 force halberds striking. Its definitely viable to kill them before taking damage.

Screen shots will follow...

Interesting. I would have outflanked at least a squad of the genestealers; probably both. Difficult to gauge distance on the board, but I bet you could have outflanked into assault with one of the rhinos, but I play a very different list.

At 2000 points, I usually like this:

Tyrant w/ Stranglethorn, Armored Shell, Leech Essense, Paroxysm
Tyrant w/ Scytals(x2), Wings, Regeneration
Tyrant Guard x 2
Zoanthropes x 2 in pod
Zoanthropes x 2 in pod
Genestealers x 14
Genestealers x 14
Genestealers x 13
Genestealers x 12
Warrior Brood x 3
Carnifex (gasp!)

Outflank at least two of the genestealers, have everything else advance at once, and make sure that you are prepared to hit them on the turn that the genestealers come in, if possible. If it's an objective match, the Warriors tend to the home objective.