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So I've been pretty loyal to my Ultramarines for a few years now and I've wanted to invest in some form of an armored force, really easy for my guard army, not so much for Codex: Space Marines.

We have access to Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Whirlwinds, and Vindicators.

Max I could field is a bunch of Rhinos/Razorbacks with 3 of the other guys (Vindicators in my case). Just does not seem as emph-tastic as it feels when I unload a bunch of tanks with my Imperial Guard.

So I approached my play group with the question, "Hey, Grey Knights and Blood Angels have Storm Ravens, would anyone mind if I used these with my Codex: Space Marines army?"

One guy already runs a modified Salamanders Fandex which allows him to use a single Storm Raven but the group was more than reluctant to say "Hey sure!" So I figured I could just buy the Blood Angels codex, get the Storm Ravens, get the Baal Predators, paint em my army color, and when I wanted to use them I'd just whip out that codex and run my army from that, when I did not want to use a heavy armor list back to the normal codex I go.

The issue that arises (and I've seen some flame wars over the interwebs about it) is people refusing to play against someone, in this case myself, who runs one army paint scheme but with another army's book. I've heard of Raven Guard doing this because of the assault marine troop choice via Blood Angels and in my case all of my stuff is Ultramarines scheme.

I am pretty understanding of proxies, fandexing, sliding on WYSIWYG, and so forth because, so long as someone is not omitting those things to cheat in some way, I am simply happy to actually be playing.

Anyways, just wanted to get some feedback from the DakkaDakka community, waiting on my TRU scale Chapter House kits to get here before I build the ravens and in the mean time figured I could get some input, heck, maybe even get some suggestions for easing the transition with the play group.

I personally don't feel that it should be a problem I know it wouldn't be for me. If you are just clear about how things are I think alot of people are just like you and want to play. And it doesn't sound like you are going to be proxying half your army just to try something thats more powerful or cheesy so most people should be understanding especially if you have been playing with them awhile.

It's hard to see what the alternative would be for alot of players, if they want to stay even a little bit competitive. I'm for it.

Not a problem, as long as it's as close to WYSIWYG.

I run Iron Warriors using the vanilla SM book and SW book, depending on the list. I've never had anyone have a problem with it.

A buddy of mine actually does this with the grey knights codex. He loves ultras so he paints his flying dumpsters... Er i mean Stormravens in Ultramarine colors. So i would allow it. You dont have to paint them by the book.

I don't really mind WYSIWYGs and proxying, being lenient etc.
But you're essentially taking a unit from one codex and adding it to another...have to say, I probably wouldn't be cool with that.
But yeah if you wanted to use your Ultramarines as a counts-as Blood Angels, that'd be totally cool.

The birth of the Ultra Angels?

Ahem. Anyway, I don't see any problems with it. My brother's blood angels often play stand-in for other codices.

Not a fan generally unless it's something really well done. For example, I had the idea of a World Eaters army using Berserkers on Juggernauts of Khorne. It would be counts-as Space Wolves, with the Juggernaut riders being TWC. Then there's some folks here who have more than one company of Marines, and will use Deathwing rules for the first company, Blood Angels rules for the assault companies, and so on. Both of these examples sound good to me. When someone codex hops to whichever codex is newest, then that gets lame. I'm not interested in your Dark Angels counts-as Chaos Marines who were then counts-as Space Marines, Space Wolves, and are now Blood Angels.

I don't like it. I'm not as hard-line on this any more as I once was, but I think the rules for each codex are written to represent the abilities of the chapters they are written for. Ultramarines don't use nemesis force halbereds, nor are they all psykers.

Using Grey Knight or Blood Angel rules to play Ultramarines is, to me, no different to using Necron rules to play Orks. Yes, it is more easily identifiable what is supposed to be what in the first case, but it is still using the wrong rules.

Also, it reeks of cheese and wanting to use the "best", ie most competetive rules for your models.

If you just simply love the Storm Raven model and desperately want a blue one, just ask your gaming group if they'd mind houseruling that you can use one with the normal codex Space Marines. If I were your opponent, I'd let you do that, but I'd not like to play blue Blood Angels or Grey knights with Ultramarine symbols.

It's all about the DBAGs you play. If it was me? I'd be "go for it man" but thats just my FLGS.. Paint it paint, the model underneath is the same. Would they throw up the same arguement for non painted models? if they do then they suck.

Skylifter wrote:
If you just simply love the Storm Raven model and desperately want a blue one, just ask your gaming group if they'd mind houseruling that you can use one with the normal codex Space Marines. If I were your opponent, I'd let you do that, but I'd not like to play blue Blood Angels or Grey knights with Ultramarine symbols.

No disrespect, we're all entitled to our opinions, but I'm on the exact opposite page as Skylifter. I would be ok with you playing your ultramarines using the blood angels or grey knight codex and including a blue storm raven, but I'd not like to play against a house ruled storm raven using C:SM.

Edit: Maybe I'd be ok with a house ruled storm raven for C:SM in an occasional friendly match but probably not regularly and never competitively.

GreatGunz wrote:It's hard to see what the alternative would be for alot of players, if they want to stay even a little bit competitive. I'm for it.

While I understand the point you are making it differs for me slightly. I am not using the Blood Angels codex with my Ultramarines to be competitive, it is simply to play stuff I otherwise would not be able to play. I was actually hoping to got to Myrtle Beach for the tournament down there in May (not looking good, the group does not seem to wanna go) and my list was pure Ultramarines (C:SM) 3x Vindicators, 3x Ironclads with drop pods, and the rest of the compulsory, would have been a lot of fun as well. Bottom line is, I want to try some different units, vehicles, perhaps a change of pace, been running the same stuff for quite awhile.

Skylifter wrote:I don't like it. I'm not as hard-line on this any more as I once was, but I think the rules for each codex are written to represent the abilities of the chapters they are written for. Ultramarines don't use nemesis force halbereds, nor are they all psykers.

Using Grey Knight or Blood Angel rules to play Ultramarines is, to me, no different to using Necron rules to play Orks. Yes, it is more easily identifiable what is supposed to be what in the first case, but it is still using the wrong rules.

Also, it reeks of cheese and wanting to use the "best", ie most competetive rules for your models.

If you just simply love the Storm Raven model and desperately want a blue one, just ask your gaming group if they'd mind houseruling that you can use one with the normal codex Space Marines. If I were your opponent, I'd let you do that, but I'd not like to play blue Blood Angels or Grey knights with Ultramarine symbols.

As stated above they all but declined when I asked, to prevent the issue I just went and got the codex that would let me use it. Furthermore, if I was in it for the cheese I'd have done this years ago after getting my head kicked in weeks on end by Blood Angels verses Ultramarines. Finally, what difference does it make how they are painted so long as they are indeed painted? If you've got a second take a look at my gallery, my Ultramarine tactical squads look good, in my opinion, and are already clad in a portion of Blood Angel stuff (the action poses of the Death Company models were hard to resist, I like my models looking like they are running when the drop pods hit the table).

Brother SRM wrote:Not a fan generally unless it's something really well done. For example, I had the idea of a World Eaters army using Berserkers on Juggernauts of Khorne. It would be counts-as Space Wolves, with the Juggernaut riders being TWC. Then there's some folks here who have more than one company of Marines, and will use Deathwing rules for the first company, Blood Angels rules for the assault companies, and so on. Both of these examples sound good to me. When someone codex hops to whichever codex is newest, then that gets lame. I'm not interested in your Dark Angels counts-as Chaos Marines who were then counts-as Space Marines, Space Wolves, and are now Blood Angels.

This I can certainly understand, but as stated above, if I was doing it for the cheese, I'd have done it a long time ago.

haendas wrote:

Skylifter wrote:
If you just simply love the Storm Raven model and desperately want a blue one, just ask your gaming group if they'd mind houseruling that you can use one with the normal codex Space Marines. If I were your opponent, I'd let you do that, but I'd not like to play blue Blood Angels or Grey knights with Ultramarine symbols.

No disrespect, we're all entitled to our opinions, but I'm on the exact opposite page as Skylifter. I would be ok with you playing your ultramarines using the blood angels or grey knight codex and including a blue storm raven, but I'd not like to play against a house ruled storm raven using C:SM.

Edit: Maybe I'd be ok with a house ruled storm raven for C:SM in an occasional friendly match but probably not regularly and never competitively.

Definitely entitled to the opinion and this is why I asked my group first. If they were fine with it I'd have just got the Ravens and been done with it, they were not really cool so I got the Ravens, some dreadnoughts, and some Baal Predators along with a Blood Angels codex, when I wanna run that stuff I'll whip that codex out, when I don't I'll stick to the C:SM.

Abyssel wrote:It's all about the DBAGs you play. If it was me? I'd be "go for it man" but thats just my FLGS.. Paint it paint, the model underneath is the same. Would they throw up the same arguement for non painted models? if they do then they suck.

I see your point, if my C:SM army was not finished and I'd been running it for several years, then chose to use those same models WYSIWYG out of another codex I think anyone would catch more flack for flavor of the month than someone who had a painted army and was making a partial shift for different gameplay.

Thanks for the comments folks, a lot less flaming than I expected. I would like to note, however, that all of my models will be WYSIWYG as close as possible (combi-melta or two missing on an Sgt. or something, but the arm pointing looked so much cooler with his pose >.< In addition to this my tactical squads were all made using 5 Death Company kits and 1 assault squad kit. To the best of my abilities I shaved off the Blood Angels iconography but left the X symbol, looks really cool to me. I'd worked on a custom chapter for awhile (Fandex) but gave up on the rules, all I kept was my name and the squads etc etc. The name is "Alpha Company" where as all of the normal Ultramarines companies were numbered, I assigned my custom one Alpha. The idea for them is they are sent into scenarios in which the expected success rate is nearly zero, casualties are expected to be high, for a lack of better words suicide missions. The Alpha Company in theory is supposed to be like a 'special forces' type of theme, well geared, fearless, headstrong, etc etc.



Doubt the back story, in addition to my modeling/desire to try some new stuff, will waiver anyone, but at least you can see (hopefully) that it is not about the cheese.

Marines are marines.... I dont care what colour they are.... As long as the wargear is obvious and everything looks like its suppose to, use it.....


Blood Angels are Red... However you can paint your army neon yellow and still play as BA... As long as its all legal.. im good.... Most successor chapters use their lineage codex and not Vanilla... so not all successor chapters are red etc...

Rules say color of paint has no effect on what codex you can/can't use. If some one wants to go against the rules, to penalize me for having a painted force (especially with all the gray plastic armies running around) they can shove it.

I wouldn't (don't) even ask. "Here's my Ultramarines, I'm running them as Space Wolves... everything is WYSIWYG, lets roll for mission type and then initiative."

I'm a bit out of date for 5th edition, but aren't there still rules for using a small group from another codex as Allies, and you then field them using the other slots in the Org chart once you fill the requisite slots for the mission from your "main" army, but you may not have more allied units than you have Troops units of your main force? It may not fly at tournaments, but shouldn't be a problem in friendly games. I know at least for Kroot Merc armies in 3rd/4th, it used to be exactly this way.

That's exactly what I would plan on doing if I ever buy a Stormraven for my Ultras.

The paintjob frankly doesn't matter as much as the rules, as long as the model remains instantly recognizable as what it's supposed to represent, and you use the legal rules entry for it. I would say that a blue Stormraven is still a stormraven, even in an Ultramarines army.

AegisGrimm wrote:I'm a bit out of date for 5th edition, but aren't there still rules for using a small group from another codex as Allies, and you then field them using the other slots in the Org chart once you fill the requisite slots for the mission from your "main" army, but you may not have more allied units than you have Troops units of your main force? It may not fly at tournaments, but shouldn't be a problem in friendly games. I know at least for Kroot Merc armies in 3rd/4th, it used to be exactly this way.

That's exactly what I would plan on doing if I ever buy a Stormraven for my Ultras.

The paintjob frankly doesn't matter as much as the rules, as long as the model remains instantly recognizable as what it's supposed to represent, and you use the legal rules entry for it. I would say that a blue Stormraven is still a stormraven, even in an Ultramarines army.

Nope, the last of that was abolished when SoB and GK gots their new codexes.

I would be 100% fine with it or eles it'll just be another good reason to NOT paint your armies

Nope, the last of that was abolished when SoB and GK got their new codexes.

Bummer, that's dumb.

I'd still allow it in fun games, though. A gamer group that doesn't allow small exceptions is not one I want to join, as they take the hobby far too seriously.

Some armies are practically the same thing anyway. Like Blood Angels and World Eaters. At some point you have to ask yourself.... where will the hair splitting end?

If your wargear lines up, then your paint scheme is completely irrelevant.

Paint your BAs blue, and call them the hypoxic chapter for all it matters.

I would have no problem playing you and feel that anyone that did is a bit of a jerk.

Ultramarines do not have Stormravens.

If you desperately want to use a Stormraven, then start a new army. Given that you just seem bored with your current army, I think this is a much better option for you.

Jstncloud wrote: what difference does it make how they are painted so long as they are indeed painted

It's a sliding scale, with 'random paint splashed on' on one end and 'golden demon winner' on the other end. The moment it 'makes a difference' to me is the moment you ignore the rules associated with your chosen force for personal satisfaction.

You've bought into a specific force. A specific look, a specific feel, a specific aesthetic and specific background. In your case, the Ultramarines.

And now you want to just start using other rules because the ones associated with your force aren't good enough for you? And I don't mean simply competitive enough. They don't offer enough flexibility, or variation, or whatever it is you want. They just aren't good enough for you anymore.

I can't make you use any particular codex, but it is poor form indeed to simply switch it up because you want to.

Beats more grey marines. Their colour doesn't matter as long as it's clear from the start what book you're using.

Jstncloud wrote:One guy already runs a modified Salamanders Fandex which allows him to use a single Storm Raven but the group was more than reluctant to say "Hey sure!" So I figured I could just buy the Blood Angels codex, get the Storm Ravens, get the Baal Predators, paint em my army color, and when I wanted to use them I'd just whip out that codex and run my army from that, when I did not want to use a heavy armor list back to the normal codex I go.

Yep, this is the way to go. Get whatever specialized models you want, paint them your army's color. When you want to use them, use the appropriate Codex. Don't mix and match codices or you get to let me take lash princes and necron wraiths with my plasmacutioners.

good luck enforcing that.

Kaldor wrote:

Jstncloud wrote: what difference does it make how they are painted so long as they are indeed painted

It's a sliding scale, with 'random paint splashed on' on one end and 'golden demon winner' on the other end. The moment it 'makes a difference' to me is the moment you ignore the rules associated with your chosen force for personal satisfaction.

You've bought into a specific force. A specific look, a specific feel, a specific aesthetic and specific background. In your case, the Ultramarines.

And now he is using the "Blue Angels" successor chapter of the BA, a 15th founding thought to be lost in the warp fighting the demons that invaded the forge world of Segundis, The Blue Angels are honored in the halls of the BA archives as the "Saviors of Segundis" as it was their sacrifice that allowed the Blood Angels to repel the invasion and save Segundis.

Jstncloud above, and Dunwich and Azael below are spot on:

azazel the cat wrote:

Dunwich wrote:I would have no problem playing you and feel that anyone that did is a bit of a jerk.

If your wargear lines up, then your paint scheme is completely irrelevant.

If someones using a fandex I think its kind of lame they won't give you the room to use a single stormraven.

I don't agree with mixing codex's, nor swapping codex for an army painted and designed specifically to be something else. I don't like 'stand in models' seeing a load of ultramarines suffering red thirst or black rage is eh... same with them suddenly pulling out force halberds is just uncharacteristic as well as a twist in the games rules I don't believe you should need to make.

Honestly for the sake of a single stormraven I think the people you play need to relax a little. If it was a tournament yeah for sure, but im assuming this is friendly play?

Kaldor wrote:Ultramarines do not have Stormravens.

If you desperately want to use a Stormraven, then start a new army. Given that you just seem bored with your current army, I think this is a much better option for you.

Jstncloud wrote: what difference does it make how they are painted so long as they are indeed painted

It's a sliding scale, with 'random paint splashed on' on one end and 'golden demon winner' on the other end. The moment it 'makes a difference' to me is the moment you ignore the rules associated with your chosen force for personal satisfaction.

You've bought into a specific force. A specific look, a specific feel, a specific aesthetic and specific background. In your case, the Ultramarines.

And now you want to just start using other rules because the ones associated with your force aren't good enough for you? And I don't mean simply competitive enough. They don't offer enough flexibility, or variation, or whatever it is you want. They just aren't good enough for you anymore.

I can't make you use any particular codex, but it is poor form indeed to simply switch it up because you want to.

Not everyone in the world is made of money. If you where at my LGS I would never play you, and neither would anyone else with that mindset. Not everyone has the resources to just up and start a new army. Once again, paint is paint, it can be stripped. Whats the difference between an Ultra Marine and a Blood Angel? a few blood drops? So what.....

there are two people at my FLGS who run the Blood angels Codex. one paints them as blood angels, the other as Angry Marines. (he has even posted some of his early paintjobs here) no one at the shop cares. the Paintjob of your marines does not matter. in fact, the only time the paint on a model matters is for ork vehicles, and then only outside of friendly games. so long as the wargear is correct, the Counts-As is consistant, and your not trying it out just for the cheese, go for it.

Abyssel wrote: Once again, paint is paint

Paint is not just paint. At what point do we stop playing a miniatures wargame and start playing with cardboard chits with 'plasma gunner' and 'landraider' written on it? Where exactly is the line?

For me, as soon as we decide we don't care what rules should be associated with our models, and we use whatever rules we want, we have crossed that line and we may as well be playing with bits of cardboard.