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I have been playing since third edition. I can't help but notice over the past year maybe year and a half local gaming groups and tournaments have all fallen into these disgustingly boring and monotonous lists of just throwing 3 or 6 of the same unit into a list. There is no fluff, no originality, no creativity, just the desperate attempt to win a table top war game. Now in a tournament I understand the sentiment to use what works and destroy, but I'm starting to see this trend more and more in casual pickup games and it just makes me worry about the future of this game and the type of people playing it. Lists like GK all Purifier and DE million venom warrior blaster spam infuriate me to no end anymore out of how boring it is to play. Most biased competitive players on here I'm sure are going to chime in because they play these lists with "The point of the game is winning" my response is simple... no the point is not winning.... it’s to have fun. Tournaments excluded. To the point... is spam hammer killing the fun of the game for anyone else?

As always: Good beer, Pretzels, and warhammer... that is what is best in life. get back to the root of the game people

I don't play with spammers. I play with cheaters, liars, TFGs and spammers, but I don't play 5 year olds.

Just kidding, swap around 5 Year olds with spammers.

Laughing God wrote:I have been playing since third edition. I can't help but notice over the past year maybe year and a half local gaming groups and tournaments have all fallen into these disgustingly boring and monotonous lists of just throwing 3 or 6 of the same unit into a list.

Certainly 5th ed has made spamming much more the to-do, but...

Laughing God wrote:There is no fluff, no originality, no creativity, just the desperate attempt to win a table top war game.

... I take offense at this. I LIKE spam armies. I like throwing wave after wave of stuff at my opponent. I think that armies with one of each kind of unit are ungainly and frankly unrealistic.

I spam because it is an aesthetic choice, not because I am a soulless shivering mass desperate for a win.

GWs fault for having such terrible internal/external balance. if they made everything decent it would not be so tempting to spam the good stuff.

Ailaros wrote:

Laughing God wrote:There is no fluff, no originality, no creativity, just the desperate attempt to win a table top war game.

... I take offense at this. I LIKE spam armies. I like throwing wave after wave of stuff at my opponent. I think that armies with one of each kind of unit are ungainly and frankly unrealistic.

I spam because it is an aesthetic choice, not because I am a soulless shivering mass desperate for a win.

I think it's poorly worded.

I'm pretty sure he meant meta-game lists, rather than your play style.

Rather than leaving Long Fangs as an actual rare, elite unit, lots of players take as many as is possible because of their awesome brokeness.

An army such as foot guard (Yours, AFAIK,) is quite fluffy and competitive.

The OP is trying to get at things like Purifier Spam and Long Fangs, amongst others.

Don't play with strangers.
Play with friends and have fun.
Against a friend I'd happily play an all-blob list with as many conscripts as possible, for the sheer lols. Doubly if my enemy was horde orks.
But I'd never take such a list to a tournment, obviously. I'd want my vendettas and chimeras.

Well, but what's WRONG with a purifier list? If that's what I want to play, that's what I want to play.

The OP here is basically saying "You brought a list that is boring for me to play against. You're making my experience worse, therefore you need to change", which basically boils down to self-righteous whining.

If you don't want to play 40k against competitive people, then don't play against competitive people, and if you can't find anyone with which to play 40k non-competitively, then don't play 40k. Change happens. Whining about it does nothing.

Ailaros wrote:Well, but what's WRONG with a purifier list? If that's what I want to play, that's what I want to play.

The OP here is basically saying "You brought a list that is boring for me to play against. You're making my experience worse, therefore you need to change", which basically boils down to self-righteous whining.

If you don't want to play 40k against competitive people, then don't play against competitive people, and if you can't find anyone with which to play 40k non-competitively, then don't play 40k. Change happens. Whining about it does nothing.

I have to say I agree with you. I was just trying to share what I think the OP meant.

I spam Plague Marines, because I want my army to be fluffy and quite frankly I think they're the only unit that represents the Death Guard adequately. I also lose a lot, but I'm cool with that.

I agree with KB305. I don't mind people using lots of the same units because for some codexes it's the only way to have a chance of winning. If all units in a codex were equally good at doing some particular role, there'd be no reason to spam.

If Hive Guard and Lictors were equally good tank killers, you'd see lists with both. If Genestealers and Lictors were equally good infantry killers, you'd see both. But, Lictors are TERRIBLE, so you only see lots of hive guard and genestealers. Etc etc. There are many units in various codexs which are not "different" from the other choices, they are simply worse at performing every role a unit could perform in the game.

I certainly don't expect anyone to use terrible units. Fix the codexes, and you fix the spam.

Ailaros wrote:Well, but what's WRONG with a purifier list? If that's what I want to play, that's what I want to play.

The OP here is basically saying "You brought a list that is boring for me to play against. You're making my experience worse, therefore you need to change", which basically boils down to self-righteous whining.

If you don't want to play 40k against competitive people, then don't play against competitive people, and if you can't find anyone with which to play 40k non-competitively, then don't play 40k. Change happens. Whining about it does nothing.

This pretty much sums up my understanding of the OP as well.

I spam Imperial Guard Drop Troops because, well, their Imperial Guardsmen...

Nalathani wrote:Fix the codexes, and you fix the spam.

I disagree. There will always be either:
1) Something that is better than something else at what you want it to do.
2) Something that appeals to you more.

Another one of these threads.

Spam is, in fact, quite fluffy. Who are you to tell me my 3x Manticores are unflluffy? It makes sense on so many levels to bring multiple of a same unit. The fact that you, the OP, find it boring and unfluffy is all fine and dandy, but I find the opposite to be boring and unfluffy.

I agree 100% with the A-man.

part of the issue is..well the game and the codexs. I have 4 fast attack options...only 1 of them is good 1 is ok and the other two are just plain bad...so it some instances you HAVE to spam things cause thats your only option.

As for spam being unrealistic is a bit silly.. Go look at the gulf war and see how many diffirent tanks where rolling across the sands...about a handful at best.

But me personally outside of troop choices the most ill "spam" something is 2. Like I really enjoy looted wagons..but the most ill run in a normal game is two..with a single of something else to support them. Which I do a lot..2 of one..then one of another.

pretre wrote:

Nalathani wrote:Fix the codexes, and you fix the spam.

I disagree. There will always be either:
1) Something that is better than something else at what you want it to do.
2) Something that appeals to you more.

There will also be an internet. I've played a 4 player game once where two of the army lists were copied and pasted from the internet. Was very frustrating to say the least.

Why? What makes a list from the internet any less fun to play than one they wrote personally? Would the units be any different? What if they didn't tell you it was C&P'd?

Because it took me months to learn the ins and outs of every unit in my codex.
They found someone on the internet to tell them.
Hell why not get a computer to play the game for you? Would it really be any different? Would it matter?
Yes.

I just spammed Scythes last night and i had LOADS of fun. Some of the most fun ive had yet as a necron player. No tricks, no gimmicks, no nightfighting, nothing. Just a bunch of pew pew across the board.
Ig spam infantry squads: Really really fun.
Necron Warrior spam: Kinda fun

But then I also like making random lists and playing them even though i KNOW ill lose.

Joey wrote:Because it took me months to learn the ins and outs of every unit in my codex.
They found someone on the internet to tell them.
Hell why not get a computer to play the game for you? Would it really be any different? Would it matter?
Yes.

/facepalm

Strawman much? Just because you learn one way, doesn't mean that they don't learn another way. And no, playing by computer is quite a bit different. If alll they did was pull a list off the net with no research or prior preparation, they would get stomped mercilessly.

I think what the OP is getting at is just how depressing and insanely boring non-tournament game nights are getting in many areas, where you only ever see the top rated netlists ad nausium every freaking time you go to play for fun... (I can atest to that since that's what the bulk of my local meta is like - WAAC's 24/7, and it's a crying shame people have become this petty and focused on purely winning over having fun & your games telling a good story. )

Naturally in most tournaments you should go into the event expecting the filthiest of the filthy-cheese lists to show up because the bulk of the player community is there to win games. So, if you go into a tourny with a non-optimised list, then suck it up, take your lumps and enjoy your last few games vs the other like-minded attendees.
Just know that you're throwing awards like 'Best General' and 'Best Overall' out the window, but you can always focus on prizes like 'Best Sport' or 'Best Painted'.

However, I think alot of competitive players need to take a break and put more effort into ensuring that weekly open gaming nights are fun for both players and not just another curbstomping marathon!
Most players aren't looking for all out balls-to-the-wall 'uber competitive play on pick-up nights. So really, the onus is more on the competitive player's shoulders to perhaps tone down their lists just a little bit because their opponents either aren't into that kind of play, aren't 'great' players and/or just like to play the units they like as well even if they're totally trash!!!
By the same token, the non-competitive player needs to be upfront themselves and let their opponent know, for example, "This is my super-fluffy-themed list, so please can you take some pity on me and not pull out your 'uber list?!" (showing your opponent the list can also help too as that way a competitive player can also potentially remove the more rediculous hard-counters to keep the game entertaining)

So really, outside of tourny prep games or tourny play, is it really *that* hard for competitive players every now and then to;
- Use only 3 Purifyer squads instead of 6 and perhaps try out a different unit like a Purgation squad or Dreadknight? (and leave the 'ing herp-derp grenades at home!!!)
- Swap out 2 of your 6 venoms for say a beast pack or raider?
- Leave Fateweaver at home for a night?
- Don't use wound-allocation BS?
- Try out some Penal Legion squad/s instead of 3-5x meltavets in bawkes?
etc...

Seriously, trying out some different unit combos every now and then not only helps further your own game play and perhaps gives you some new ideas, but it can also really help out less competitive players as they're not forced into a corner they're utterly unprepared for! (seriously, how nessessary is it to pull 6 razorbacks + 3 baal's on a poor sod who's only playing in his 5th game?! )
As an afterthought, the less competitive player/s can also perhaps ask their more competitive opponent/s to help them with their tactics and how to perhaps improve their list within their comfort zone. (ie: "well, 5x missile launchers is a better way to run your long fangs because of reasons 'X/Y/Z'") Eventually, the less competitive player/s will slowly and eventually improve to the point that everyone can (hopefully) play the list/s they like and still be decently competitive & the community itself will be faced with less of a divide between, "you're just a jerky spamy power-gaming TFG!" and "you're just a fluffer-nutter who thinks I should play only crap units to fit your theme!"

pretre wrote:

Joey wrote:Because it took me months to learn the ins and outs of every unit in my codex.
They found someone on the internet to tell them.
Hell why not get a computer to play the game for you? Would it really be any different? Would it matter?
Yes.

/facepalm

Strawman much? Just because you learn one way, doesn't mean that they don't learn another way. And no, playing by computer is quite a bit different. If alll they did was pull a list off the net with no research or prior preparation, they would get stomped mercilessly.

So you could beat any netlist with any of your take-all-comers lists?
Sir I am in awe of your tactical prowess.

A lot of spam lists can be backed up with fluff.
Colonel Greiss of the Catachan 2nd Chimera spammed, he used all of his Chimeras as mobile fire points (like many guard players do). The Chimeras gave the Catachan 2nd more flexibility than could have normally be expected of them.

I don't really like players who spam consistently (I occasionally spam, and don't mind players who do it once in a while) I disagree with the statement that spam lists aren't fluffy enough, most are plenty fluffy.

Joey wrote:So you could beat any netlist with any of your take-all-comers lists?
Sir I am in awe of your tactical prowess.

Any netlist run by some guy who only just downloaded it and did no other research into the army or codex? Yeah.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the problem is that people think that Competitive isn't fun. For competitive people, competitive is fun.

Getting tabled isnt fun, and getting tabled is what happens when I bring fluff oriented lists.

Experiment 626 wrote:So really, the onus is more on the competitive player's shoulders to perhaps tone down their lists just a little bit because their opponents either aren't into that kind of play

Why? Why shouldn't the other person change? Why do either need to change?

Joey wrote:Because it took me months to learn the ins and outs of every unit in my codex.
They found someone on the internet to tell them

So? People found a more efficient way to field reasonably competitive lists. They did it in a different way?



Plus, there's something I think people are missing here. There are TWO players here, and you're one of them. Your opponent is bringing a netlist to be competitive? Bring a list tailored to rip netlists to shreds. It's not that difficult. Your opponent is just sitting there doing nothing but rolling dice without moving anything? Bring a list where you do movement. If a game is boring, it can only be because you are also participating in the boringness.

Blaming your loathing of your opponents list on your opponent is missing at least half the point. The real question is why are you loathing the list, not why is your opponent bringing it.

Ailaros wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:So really, the onus is more on the competitive player's shoulders to perhaps tone down their lists just a little bit because their opponents either aren't into that kind of play

Why? Why shouldn't the other person change? Why do either need to change?

The bigger onus is on the competitive player because they typically have a larger, more diverse collection than the non-competitive player and especially the beginner. Sure it's not always the case, but typically it is as the competitive player will proxy/collect more units in order to fine tune their list to be as hard-as-nails as they can make it.
Most of the casual players I delt with when I worked at the local store only bought the units they wanted for their specific list. They didn't care much about how well the unit preformed, nor were they typically interested in going for the most competitive choice/s because it didn't fit their theme. (or they just didn't like the unit in question)

Note that I also pointed out that the non-competitive player also has to make some consessions, such as being more open about their intentions for the game, (ie: "I like to just have fun and am not prepared/can't compete against your spam tourny list), plus they have to be willing to become a bit more competitive themselves. (ie: sure 1 of every gun in a dev squad looks cool, but you should honestly just pick two and combat squad because it's more tactically flexible and put the oddball gun/s into a tactical squad instead.)

One/both players need to be open to the idea of incorperating some changes because otherwise you simply end up with the OP; 'why does everyone have to spam? I hate facing spam, spam is ruining my 40k fun!'
As pointed out, not all spam is bad - it can be fluffy, for example 3 or 4 squads of 30 ork boyz is very fluffy for a green horde! But, when all you see is the same highly competitive/netlist type of spam, it can really grate on alot of nerves, especially for anyone who just wants a 'fun' game and doesn't have a similar list that can take on a highly focused power spam list.

Spamming is a gamble, especially if you don't know what to expect. If a guard player spams melta-vets in Chimeras and ends up playing someone who brought a list that incorporates lots of large blast "antivehicle" weapons, the spammer is most likely to lose. Spams win and they lose. I've had about 50/50 (maybe 60/40) success with spams, the only major difference is usually my particular enemies.

Taking duplicate units isn't 'spamming' per se, it's more along the lines of redundancy. I don't want to lose half my anti-tank capability because some +++EXPLETIVE DELETED+++ blew up my only Fire Dragon unit's Wave Serpent with a lucky shot on turn one...

But that said, taking an army composed entirely of a small number of types of unit is poor tactical thinking as it relies on the assumption that something is good enough to beat everything. The game is oddly balanced (poorly, in some cases, but balanced), everything's got an effective counter. And while nothing is good enough to kill everything, something is good enough to kill whatever you happen to bring.

As a general guideline, I try not to take more than two copies of a specific unit (three if it's a Troops unit in a 1500pt-plus game, four if it's my Dark Angels army and I only have one Troops choice available); most armies are versatile enough that there's plenty of redundancy available without taking too many duplicate units (Howling Banshees, Harlequins, and Striking Scorpions are all good assault units in the Eldar list, for instance).

To add, some people do have preferences of what they want to take. I liked assault marines, but didn't like how they were fast attack in codex space marines. Now I play them as troops, though I may soon add a small scout squad from time to time.

Experiment 626 wrote:They didn't care much about how well the unit preformed

If this were true, they wouldn't care about being roflstomped by a spam list. The moment they start caring about winning, they're a competitive player. If they're a competitive player and they're losing, it's because they're not being competitive enough (or are really unlucky). Now we're in the world of the competitive gamer.

In either case, I don't see why the spammer should change.

Of course, there are situations outside of this, for example, you mentioned playing against newbies, but in a straight on fight between someone who doesn't claim they care if they win versus someone who doesn't hold to this statement, then either it's moot, or it's on the less competitive player.