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Hi guys

I am not sure this is the proper subforum for this question, since I am not posting an army list, but asking for one. About three years back I got fed up with my Tau army constantly loosing and I started Black Templars. I recently rediscovered Tau and thought might give them a try. However I admit I have no idea how to make a functional force from the models I have (or any Tau models actually), so I am asking you. I will list here the models I have and I welcome anyone to make from them at least a half functioning list (ie. I will win at least some battles). Feel free to suggest any additions, if you feel the army would benefit from them.

4x crisis suits
3x broadsides
10x gun drones
6x shield drones
6x stealth suits
1x crisis commander
24x fire warriors
20x kroots + some unassambled

So any advice on possible army lists (1000 or 1500 pts) plus any advice on how to use them will be highly appreciated.

hubaj wrote:
4x crisis suits
3x broadsides
10x gun drones
6x shield drones
6x stealth suits
1x crisis commander
24x fire warriors
20x kroots + some unassambled

So any advice on possible army lists (1000 or 1500 pts) plus any advice on how to use them will be highly appreciated.

I recently returned to Tau and tried this little army config - three sets of firewarriors all inside devilfish. Place them in a triangle 15 - 18 inches apart. Broadsides stand on the baseline of the triablge between the devils. Kroot stand about 10 inches in front of broadsides. All the rest can sod off around the sides to stop enemies etc. Broadsides should have shield drones via drone controller.

When your enemy attacks, typically he must hit one devil first or the kroot. Either way, your firewarriors jump out from the devils - all of them armed with pulse rifles - and rapid fire the attackers to death - before or after they've destroyed whatever troop they engaged. It works beautifully.

Give a SEARCH on this forum and look over the threads. Most of the advice I give, Milisim, Dr. Sterling and others is almost always the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hubaj wrote:1x crisis commander

Run a Shas'El HQ, 2 guns, Target Array, hwMT

hubaj wrote:4x crisis suits

Run as two pairs:
Team Leader, 2 guns, Target Array, hwMT
2 guns and MT for the second fiddle XV8.

hubaj wrote:3x broadsides

As the suits above, only each one its own unit: Team Leader, A.s.s. or TA (you chose), a hwDC, 2 Shield Ds, bonded.

hubaj wrote:10x gun drones

Let 'em gather dust.

hubaj wrote:6x shield drones

All for the b-sides.

hubaj wrote:6x stealth suits

All BCs. Maybe with TAs each. *No* Fusion Blasters. Mixed gun units don't work efficiently.

hubaj wrote:24x fire warriors

Run 3 sets of 6. Maybe promote an 'Ui and Bond. Maybe not

hubaj wrote:20x kroots + some unassambled

Possibly 2 sets of 10.

I'll let you figure points from here.

Thank you, your advice is welcome. One more thing - what loadout do you suggest for the crisis suits?

Being mentioned in this thread, I feel obliged to comment.

Missile pods are the best weapons you can take in mass. Cheap, wound marines on 2's, instagib GEQ, can pen AV12 or less. I rarely field a suit without one

The two most common weapon loadouts on crisis are firestorms or fireknives.

Firestorm is Burst cannon+missile Pod. Cheap, shoots five times, good against most anything.

Fireknife is plasma rifle+missile pod. Your bread and butter against marines as a team of these is good against anything they can field except a land raider.

Because you will be attempting to stay out of range, I tend to use more firestorms on my BS3 suits. A single BS3 plasma shot just does not cut it. On BS4 or5 models, plasma is more effective. Plasma is also horribly expensive for suits.

Fusion blasters can be good in Farsight bombs or suicide suits, but as you probably wont be using either avoid those. Piranha and railguns do the heavy AT work in tau armies.

The special issue weapons should only be on a commander(array 'el or an 'O), as both need BS5 to work well.

Flamers are ok as a cheap hardpoint option on deathrain suits(TL missile pod), and for allocation purposes in a farsight bomb but otherwise avoid flamers.

Using the list Brothererekose proposed.
A missile pod+Special gun/plasma on your commander.
One crisis team of firestorms
One team of fireknives.

Should cover all of your bases.

Dr. Serling wrote:A missile pod+Special gun/plasma on your commander.
One crisis team of firestorms
One team of fireknives.

Should cover all of your bases.

Agreed.

i have been play tau since i started back in 2002. Currently they are a secondary army. The best advice i can give you is never underestimate the need for mark lights. In current 2500 point tourney list I field 2 squad of pathfinders with mark lights and no rail rifles. I also field 3 full squads of broadsides with plasma and mts i give the tl a hardwired drone controller for sheild drones. also tend to use 12 to 18 stealths suits all with bc.

you have a really good start to a tau army just needs to be expanded further.

A little trick I like, since you have the stealth suits, is to give them a Team Leader with a Markerlight and Hard-Wired Target Lock. As they are jet pack infantry, they have relentless, so you can jump around and still mark targets. I normally end up giving him a Fusion Blaster as well, because I generally have the 2 points left over, and he can then either mark something or blast something that gets close.

Ok guys, I made a list for 1500 points by your suggestions, what do you say?


Commander Shas'el @ 110 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array, HW-MT, stimulant inj., HW blacksun

Crisis Battlesuit team 1 @ 139 Pts
Team Leader - Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array, HW-MT

Crisis Battlesuit - Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

Crisis Battlesuit Team 2 @ 115 Pts
Team Leader - Burst Cannon; Missile Pod; Targeting Array, HW-MT

Crisis Battlesuit - Burst Cannon; Missile Pod; Multi-Tracker

Stealth Team @ 262 Pts
Team Leader - fusion gun; Markerlight; Targeting Array, HW-target lock, HW-Blacksun
5 stealth suits - Targeting array

4x Firewarrior team, each:
5 pulse rifles, 1 shas´ui with rilfe, markerlight, bonded @ 85 Pts

two of them have hw-blacksun filter (for dawn of war)

2x Kroot squad, 13x kroots @ 91 Pts

3x broad side battlesuit (team leader, SMS, TL railgun, ASS, targeting array, HW drone controler) @ 115 Pts
2x shield drone

I took the stimulant injector to kill some points, maybe switch it to something else? I am also not sure whether to switch the fusion gun on stealth suit to burst cannon and hw-blacksun - for dawn of war, which I fear could be the end of this army. I am not sure whether ASS or TA on broadsides would be better, but it costs the same so I can test it.

I would probably outflank with the kroot, JSJ with crisis suits, infiltrate with stealth suits and try to stop any fast close combaters with them. What do you think? Can you give me any suggestions for tactics?

You write lists in an unusual fashion, I must say. I think this revised list would be better for you:

Commander Shas'el @ 102 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker, Bonding Knife

Crisis Battlesuit team 1 @ 124 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

Crisis Battlesuit - Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

Crisis Battlesuit Team 2 @ 116 Pts
Burst Cannon; Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

Crisis Battlesuit - Burst Cannon; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

Stealth Team @ 207 Pts
Team Leader - fusion gun; Markerlight; HW target lock, Bonding Knife, 5 stealth suits

4x Firewarrior team, each:
5 pulse rifles, 1 shas´ui with rilfe, markerlight, HW Target Lock @ 85 x 4 340 Pts

1x Kroot squad, 13x kroots @ 91 Pts

5x Pathfinders, Shas'ui, HW Target Lock, Devilfish, Disruption Pod - 160 pts

3x broad side battlesuit (team leader, SMS, TL railgun, ASS, HW drone controler, bonded) @ 120 Pts x3 - 360
2x shield drone

Total - 1500

With Firestorm - 1492
With Deathrain (Flamer) - 1478
With Deathrain (Targeting Array) - 1490

Notes:

- Markerlights abound, so the Targeting Arrays are probably not as useful, so I dropped them.
- The commander goes with the other similar suits, and his bonding knife will transfer to them, and allow him to regroup if the others are killed, with no debate on the rules.
- The Broadsides are bonded so that drone casualties can't make them run away and never regroup (if just the suit was left, they would be under 50% strength, and could never regroup).
- Added Target Locks to the FWs, so they can use the Markerlights effectively.
- Dropped Kroot and shifted some points to allow for Pathfinders, and a Team Leader w a Target Lock for even more Markerlight goodness.
- I switched the second suit squad to Burst Cannon/Plasma (Bladestorm), as, per the Tau Crisis Mathhammer, the Missile Pod/Burst Cannon (Firestorm) is only really any good against GEQs, and not as good at Transport popping as Deathrain (Twin-Linked Missile Pod and either Flamer or Targeting Array). So if you think you're facing more GEQs, switch to them back or if it's a Mech list, add Deathrain, netting you some points to spend somewhere.

Edit: Forgot Bonding Knife on Stealth Suits.

Stealth Team @ 202 Pts
Team Leader - fusion gun; Markerlight; HW target lock, 5 stealth suits

I would do the stealth team this way instead for the same points.
202pts.
x2 stealthsuits BC/DC
x1 stealthsuit BC/TL
x1 teamleader FB/BK/DC/ HWTL/ Markerlight
x5 gun drones.
more fire power, more accurate and more durable.

kaisshau wrote:You write lists in an unusual fashion, I must say. I think this revised list would be better for you:

Commander Shas'el @ 102 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker, Bonding Knife

Crisis Battlesuit team 1 @ 124 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

Crisis Battlesuit - Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

Crisis Battlesuit Team 2 @ 116 Pts
Burst Cannon; Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

Crisis Battlesuit - Burst Cannon; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

Stealth Team @ 202 Pts
Team Leader - fusion gun; Markerlight; HW target lock, 5 stealth suits

4x Firewarrior team, each:
5 pulse rifles, 1 shas´ui with rilfe, markerlight, HW Target Lock @ 85 x 4 340 Pts

1x Kroot squad, 13x kroots @ 91 Pts

5x Pathfinders, Shas'ui, HW Target Lock, Devilfish, Disruption Pod - 160 pts

3x broad side battlesuit (team leader, SMS, TL railgun, ASS, HW drone controler, bonded) @ 120 Pts x3 - 360
2x shield drone

Total - 1495

With Firestorm - 1487
With Deathrain (Flamer) - 1473
With Deathrain (Targeting Array) - 1485

Notes:

- Markerlights abound, so the Targeting Arrays are probably not as useful, so I dropped them.
- The commander goes with the other similar suits, and his bonding knife will transfer to them, and allow him to regroup if the others are killed, with no debate on the rules. If you want Blacksun filters for him and two squads of FWs, drop this knife and run him solo.
- The Broadsides are bonded so that drone casualties can't make them run away and never regroup (if just the suit was left, they would be under 50% strength, and could never regroup).
- Added Target Locks to the FWs, so they can use the Markerlights effectively.
- Dropped Kroot and shifted some points to allow for Pathfinders, and a Team Leader w a Target Lock for even more Markerlight goodness.
- I switched the second suit squad to Burst Cannon/Plasma (Bladestorm), as, per the Tau Crisis Mathhammer, the Missile Pod/Burst Cannon (Firestorm) is only really any good against GEQs, and not as good at Transport popping as Deathrain (Twin-Linked Missile Pod and either Flamer or Targeting Array). So if you think you're facing more GEQs, switch to them back or if it's a Mech list, add Deathrain, netting you some points to spend somewhere.

Thank you for the suggestions. However I can´t use the pathfinders. I could proxy the models with fire warriors w/ carbines (thought I would have to drop one FW squad), but don´t have a devilfish, neither anything suitable to proxy it (Tau vehicles are kinda unique). The whole point of this was whether I can build an army using the models I already have, I don´t want to buy anything from Tau now.

Tun_Tau wrote:

Stealth Team @ 202 Pts
Team Leader - fusion gun; Markerlight; HW target lock, 5 stealth suits

I would do the stealth team this way instead for the same points.
202pts.
x2 stealthsuits BC/DC
x1 stealthsuit BC/TL
x1 teamleader FB/BK/DC/ HWTL/ Markerlight
x5 gun drones.
more fire power, more accurate and more durable.

Why would you give a burst canon drone a target lock? Or did I get that wrong?

Ah. Right, sorry, I forgot about that. I'll do a quick edit, try to figure something out. And it's because you have to give them each something, and that's one of the few actually useful pieces for them. But you have the five extra points, you could give him a Targeting Array instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Revised again, this one you should have the models for:

Commander Shas'el @ 105 Pts
Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker, Bonding Knife, HWBF

Crisis Battlesuit team 1 @ 124 Pts
2x Crisis Battlesuit - Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

Crisis Battlesuit Team 2 @ 116 Pts
2x Crisis Battlesuit - Burst Cannon; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker

Stealth Team @ 262 Pts
6 XV15, 2x DC, 3x Targeting Array 3 Gun Drones, Team Leader w FB/TL/Markerlight

2x Firewarrior team, each:
5 pulse rifles, 1 shas´ui with rifle, markerlight, HWTL @ 85 x 2 170 Pts

2x Firewarrior team, each:
5 pulse rifles, 1 shas´ui with rifle, markerlight, HWTL, HWBF @ 88 x 2 176 Pts

2x Kroot squad, 13x kroots @ 91 Pts x 2 - 182

3x broad side battlesuit (team leader, SMS, TL railgun, ASS, HW drone controler, bonded) @ 120 Pts x3 - 360
2x shield drone

Total - 1495

hubaj wrote:Hi guys
4x crisis suits
3x broadsides
10x gun drones
6x shield drones
6x stealth suits
1x crisis commander
24x fire warriors
20x kroots + some unassambled

So any advice on possible army lists (1000 or 1500 pts) plus any advice on how to use them will be highly appreciated.

No Devilfish's eh? ok.

Do you have Aun'Va of the Undying Spirit. With this stuff, he might not be a bad way to go. Anyways, I'll assume no on that.

140 2 x 10 kroot
412 4 x 6 Fire Warriors (EMP Grenades, Markerlight Shasu'i w/ Target Lock)
115 Team lead Broadside (1 x shield drones, A.S.S., TL Plasma)
130 Team lead Broadside (2 x shield drones, A.S.S., TL Plasma)
133 Team lead Broadside (2 x shield drones, A.S.S., TL Plasma, HW Black Sun Filter)

93 Shas'El to join stealth unit (Missile, TL Flamer, Multitracker, HW target lock, Failsafe Detonator)

304 6 Stealthsuits + 9 Gun Drones, 1 Marker Drone (2 x Fusion, Team leader with Bonding Knife)

86 2 Crisiss suits (Missile, TL Flamer)

86 2 Crisiss suits (Missile, TL Flamer)

There's a list for ya. Should kill the LandRaider and force them to slog. Your kroot can fence off the "broadside area" for you and when thats not the concern, outflank or form an infiltrating forested firebase.

More to the fore, you will have the Fire Warrior line blasting away, first at Rhinos and then at squishies if they can see them. Their EMP's should protect the backfield against DS'ing units which are a very serious threat to a Tau force.

The Crisis suits are built to fire down range or into the back of DS'ing Dreadnoughts, and then mix it up in the end when the enemy inexorably approaches, or just to block off assaults on the Fire Warriors so they can keep scoring. The TL Flamers are pretty fun and given your limited models, you really dont have enough anti-horde anywhere else. Kroot do like to eat orcs in the open though.

The hammer of the army is the Stealthunit. Doughty in both shooting and assault. The Shas'O really should be attached by the second or third round before it gets assaulted. Deep striking them together is never a bad idea but they loose the Stealthfield effects. However you can do it anyways and just spearate from the unit until later, then rejoin when charge is imminent. A lot of ways to go. but this unit does a lot of damage with markerlight backup.

The Jump Troops of the enemy will most certainly be the key units to kill. Fortunately they tend to be expensive and not AS numerous. You'll want to force the enemy jump troops to come after the Stealthunit and take shooting for a round from the Stealthunit so watch your distances. The Failsafe Detonator will allow the whole unit to escape if they lose combat, so keep the Shas'El away from the melee by "trailing" him with Drones as far behind as you need to to avoid Powerfists.

The lack of Devilfish's will definitely hurt you but in some ways you will at least nullify a lot of the usefulness of the enemies weapons since so many of them 'Malta up" to take out mechanized forces and that is largely useless against this army. Good for you, bad for them.

I might strongly recommend trying to get some Carbines in the units. Tough to say how many. Maybe two in each Fire Warrior unit for the chance of stopping a charge dead in its tracks. The unit most likley to pin the enemy is the Stealth unit since you can markerlight the unit ahead of time with the Targetlocking Shas'ui and network drone the Stealth unit has to try. However, a second chance at it is never a bad thing. The 30" range will matter for 1 round or less for the Fire Warriors as the enemy closes in, so mobility is going to be kind fo important. Just think about that one. AP 5 guns aren't going to do more good than staying alive will a lot of the time.

For the love of the Greater Good, do not use the list that Jancoran posted. I don't really have time to list all the reasons why, but a quick overview:
- Attaching a crisis suit to stealths? Never. The squad loses their stealth ability if you do so.
- TL Flamer and a MP? God no. One of the least-useful suits. A complete waste of an XV8.
- Plasma on a Broadside? Waste of points. Especially without a Multi-Tracker.

There's more, but I think you get the point.

Tun_Tau wrote:

Stealth Team @ 202 Pts
Team Leader - fusion gun; Markerlight; HW target lock, 5 stealth suits

I would do the stealth team this way instead for the same points.
202pts.
x2 stealthsuits BC/DC
x1 stealthsuit BC/TL
x1 teamleader FB/BK/DC/ HWTL/ Markerlight
x5 gun drones.

*heavy sigh* So, one clown shoots his meltagun at a tank, while 7 other STR 5 guns dwiddle thumbs.

And then, next Turn, these T3, Init 3 sissies get caught in h2h and promptly Swept. Perhaps the tank's side AV11, often is, and then sure, a BC is likely tp get through, but this is a really pricey tank busting unit ... for *one* effective gun.

Go all BCs and use their Burst Can range (or Carbine for the GDs) as a safety buffer and pound infantry for a good 3 turns before getting chased down in h2h ... if there's any footies left. JSJ in to 18" range, and then JSJ back into 22" or so. Only DE, orks, and SRGs will catch 'em in h2h.

You just need more imagination kaisshau

The stealth field, while it IS important, losing it isn't more important than losing the squad to melee. Which is the time at which you'd attach him. As aforementioned. So... I'm feeling pretty good about that unit. Largely becasue I USE that unit. And unlike most on this forum, i can actually speak to its SUCCESSFUL application instead of its THEORETICAL failure.

Try it TL flamers, hubaj, before you let people burn it in effigy. If points were unlimited, life would be awesome but they're not unlimited and neither is your model collection. If you have no answer to hordes besdies a few innacruate STR 5 shots, you've lost before you started. TL Flamers work on EVERYTHING pretty much. Missiles are useful but only til the armor is gone. Two missile shots may as well be bolters to a Marine after that. Gotta kill the enemy speed (missiles and broadsides) then you gotta kill the horde that comes after it (TL Flamers).

TL plasma on a broadside, not JUST Plasma kaisshau, and you pay 10 points for it. NO army gets it that cheap. WIN. That would cost you 30 points on a Crisis suit my friend.

Oh and the HW multitracker IS included in the price of the suit already by the way kaisshau. I just didn't show it. My apologies. it DOES have the multitracker.

Also i would point out that when the Broadsides bring 9 TL STR awesome weapons to bear on anything, it cries. 3? Not so much. You'll have the enemy in your backfield. I promise. And when you do, dont say I didn't tell ya so on that point. 9 vs. 3. 9 vs. 3... Hmm... When it matters, you'll care too.

Kaisshau has a flair for the over dramatic here. You should try the ideas before you don't. =)

Brother - Did you not see the Target Lock? And the Markerlight? He either paints something for another squad, or Melta's something juicy in range. XV15s are Jet Pack Infantry, and thus have Relentless, and thus can JSJ with Heavy Weapons.

Jancoran - While I have never tried an explosive commander in a Stealth squad, I always bring stealth suits with a Markerlight/FB and it is consistently one of the most hated units I play. JSJ can keep them out of charge range (if you're careful), and lead a squad on a chase while giving you an additional light and the occasional burst vehicle. And if massed Pulse Rifle fire (plus the Stealth Suits and PR/BC suits) can't kill a horde, especially with Markerlight support, you need new dice. For example, I play a guy who does Horde Orks. It's a Warboss, Nob squad, about 60 boys in two squads, plus a Battlewagon (I think that's the one) for the nobs. I normally run around 36 FW, a Stealth Team, 2 XV8s, and 5 Crisis suits. I infiltrate the Stealth Team, light the wagon, pump Orks full of BC, then JSJ away. XV88 pop the wagon, the FWs unload into the orcs, each squad ML them and then the next one using the pump if it hit. The last ML is used by the best positioned Crisis team. Pulse Rifles are an anti-horde wet dream. Not counting any ML bonuses, with average run rolls and starting at least 26" away, they'll lose 48 boys before they make it into combat against 36 FWs. With a little strategy, this number can be increased.

And the biggest problem with TL Plasma on a Broadside is that while it sounds awesome, it rarely is. Because generally what you want to hit with TL Plasma, you don't want to hit with a TL Railgun, and vice versa. Plasma can't scratch a Landraider or Russ, but a Railgun shot is probably wasted against Terminators; at the very least it usually can go against something much better. Maybe against a Dreadnought/Defiler they can reach their potential, but you should really be using Crisis suits against these and to pop Transports. It's the exact role that Deathrain (TLMP & F or TA) fills perfectly. One squad of two or three is plenty to

And I could understand the Flamers if you are strapped for points, but really, unless he gets pathfinders/broadsides, for 1500 points, you better be able to fit much better than TL Flamer suits. We're Tau, not Grey Knights. We have a hard time reaching 2000 points and still being efficient. My 2000 point list has room for two more troops and one fast attack, and I could add another retinue. My 2000 point Chaos list? 1 HQ, 2 Elites, 3 Troops, 2 Fast Attack, and a Heavy Support.

hubaj wrote:Commander Shas'el Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array, HW-MT, stimulant inj., HW blacksun

Lose the Stim.

hubaj wrote:Stealth Team @ 262 Pts
Team Leader - fusion gun; Markerlight; Targeting Array, HW-target lock, HW-Blacksun
5 stealth suits - Targeting array

I'd ditch the FB, for the reasons given above.

hubaj wrote:3x broad side battlesuit (team leader, SMS, TL railgun, ASS, targeting array, HW drone controler) @ 115 Pts
2x shield drone

Bond or break each one down into his own unit, Team Leader, 2 SDs, A.s.s., BK.

hubaj wrote:I am also not sure whether to switch the fusion gun on stealth suit to burst cannon and hw-blacksun

Switch to BC! Switch to BC! Switch to BC! Switch to BC!

hubaj wrote:I am not sure whether ASS or TA on broadsides would be better, but it costs the same so I can test it.

A.s.s. if your table has lotsa terrain. TA if terrain is more open. Both are good.

kaisshau wrote:
Jancoran -
... I normally run around 36 FW...

...And the biggest problem with TL Plasma on a Broadside is that while it sounds awesome, it rarely is. Because generally what you want to hit with TL Plasma, you don't want to hit with a TL Railgun, and vice versa.

...And I could understand the Flamers if you are strapped for points, but really, unless he gets pathfinders/broadsides, for 1500 points, you better be able to fit much better than TL Flamer suits.

On the FW's: He wont. HE is the point. HE has 24 and HE does not have Pathfinders nor the Devilfish to put them in even if he proxied. So while its great that you use 36, and support them, he won't and he won't have Pathfinder support. His FW ARE his pathfinders.

On the Broadsides: your assuming you have a choice of killing one or the other. When the time comes and HE MUST kill whats right next to him, what's his plan? Accept it so he can roll on the damage chart if he hits and hope he doesn't roll 1-3? Not me! I'm blowing away the threat right in front of me becuase its turn 3 and my troops are in jeopardy now. Sadly the 5E enemys have grown FAST and DEADLY. They will not give you the luxury of waiting forever to kill their vehicles. They'll definitely be giving his UNmounted troops more to think about. An by turn 3, you BETTER not still be killing vehicles anyways.

As for Crisis units: They are not cheap when built optimally. 200+ points most of the time if you want to make them really do their jobs with alacrity and conviction. Straight up TL Flamer suits are an incredibly good deal. Adding missiles makes them les so but still okay price wise. The thing is the game is played in turns. So each turn has a different need. The needs change. That is why the TL plasma on Broadsides. That is why the Missiles and TL Flamers. Tau, in my experience, is a timing army, made moreso since 5th has seen fit to flood us with fairly ridiculously overwhelming melee ability. As if we weren't already outclassed, now they've cut the time in HALF that it takes Tau to BE outsclassed!!! He needs to torrent the enemy, given the models he has. He knows they will come, fast. Being able to blast them in the face with no-cover, reliable flamers but also being able to then step in the way of charges if it comes to it is really valuable. Scoring units are ultimately what must live in most missions. Kroot have a charge to protect already. The Crisis suits may have to take one on the chin so that the StealthCloud can finish off the chargers.

And tell me the truth. When faced with 10 Dominion who just jumped out and killed your (fill in the blank) turn ONE and are about to multicharge you, do you want a couple TL Flamers or 2 plasma shots that cost 30 points in a unit you'll lose,anyways, right along with the 30 points you spent?

Just food for thought.

HIS Firewarriors will still kill 27 Boyz before they can assault, assuming HE does not move any models at all, and only counting the 20 who won't be Markerlighting something. The math really isn't that hard. And this is ignoring the Kroot entirely, which I would have replaced with FWs if HE had the models.

If they're within the 12" for the Plasma on his Broadsides to actually do anything against Armor 11 (0.75 probability of glance/pen with three shots, 1.5 with 6) or effectively kill termis (1.0 probability with 3, 2.0 with six), the Broadsides are being murdered. Helios suits (PR/FB) have similar numbers, and can JSJ away to stay alive another turn. The upgrade itself is pretty good, but it really is a 15 point upgrade, as a Multi-Tracker is a necessity. The problem is that he could use those 15 points more effectively by properly equipping a crisis suit. Or buying a shield drone.

174 points gets you a 3-suit BC/PR/MT squad, which unleashes 9 S5AP5 and 3 S6AP2 (6 under 12") shots per turn. 141 points gets you TLMP/F, for 6 S7AP4 Twin-Linked shots or 3 S4AP5 8.25" templates. 129 for TLF/MP, which gives you three Twin-Linked S4AP5 8.25" templates or 6 S7AP4 shots. Crisis suits are actually one of the Tau Empire's most efficient units. But paying 29 points just so you can have access to a Flamer? Not a great use of resources. You are much better off spending an additional 4 points for a BC. The crisis plasma is not even that expensive, at 45 points. A PR/F/BF, at 52 points, will kill 0.33 MEQs a turn, from 13-24". 12 or less, it kills 0.66 MEQs a turn. Same for GEQs. A Twin-Linked Flamer, assuming a generous six models, gets 1.11 MEQs at 8.25" and 4.5 GEQs. However, a TL-Flamer/BF suit at 34 points will get one shot, then almost certainly get assaulted. The PR suit can hop at the 12" Mark and survive an entire game. If you want cheap & effective, PR/BC/MT and TLMP/F are the way to go. MP/PR/MT just have a little better survivability/utility than PR/BC/MT, as they have a longer range and can pop transports.

The enemy doesn't care that you have a conundrum. The fact is: he's at your doorstep now and you better have an answer.

His 24 Fire Warriors will kill 27 KFF Trukk boyz? Thats miraculous math indeed.

If the flamer cut the orcs down from 20 down to 5-8 (and they will have help), they can actually take the orcs out by assaulting. The flamers are there for a specific threat he really has no other answer to and it works against all troop types anyways. The Stealthcloud can't be everywhere at once, so...

30pts for TL plasma seems like a good buy to you? Plasma + Missile or melta + Multitracker suit, very common, is 62 points, and what, 77 if it's a Team leader with TL Plasma? THOSE two are each some of the most expensive models in 40K. Literally. What's a dual cannon Venom cost again? Ah. Ouch. yeah. that. And its a transport. Double ouch.

Plasma+Burst+mt is a 58 point model. Efficient? no. Mixed AP means stacking wound shinanigans too.

So I say use both unit types if you need to (and he does), but remember that the Crisis Units best suit (pardon the pun) is anti-horde and nothing is cheaper nor ignores cover as well as TL Flamers. it's good times.

Twin-linked flamers are just nasty and double or triple deadly when stacked in a unit. Not many things can survive 3 crisis suits with them and I think if your going to run them a missile pod would be the ideal second weapon system. Still am a bigger fan of bc/mp/mt and bc/pr/mt though, it allows for more flexiblity with the range.

You call my math "miraculous", when it is in fact 100% correct and then post numbers like that? The only way a Flamer will get that many casualties is if your opponent bunches all of his models together and you're standing right beside them. The most models that can fit under a Flamer template is 19. The fewest is 3 (while maintaining coherency). Even allowing for an even-more generous 8 models under the template per suit, that's only 12 casualties. 8 Boys can more than overwhelm two crisis suits, especially with a Nob. My math was based upon a standard Ork, as I said. Did I mention KFF? No. Does it change much? No. The FWs still get 18 casualties before they are assaulted by KFF Orks. Let us compare the suits in the following scenario:
Trukk w 11 Boyz, Nob, Big Mek w KFF 48" from a TLF/MP suit:
Tau turn 1:
Suit fires it's MP, with a 0.33 of stopping the vehicle (Stunned/Immoblized/Wrecked/Destroyed).
Ork turn 1:
Trukk moves 18" forward, it is now 32" away.
Tau turn 2:
Suit fires it's MP, with 0.33 of stopping the vehicle (Stunned/Immoblized/Wrecked/Destroyed).
Ork turn 2:
Trukk moves 18" forward, it is now 16" away.
Tau turn 3:
Suit fires it's MP, with 0.33 of stopping the vehicle. Statistically, the vehicle is now stopped.
Ork turn 3:
Ork moves his boyz forward 9" forward. They are now 7" away.
Tau turn 4:
Suit moves forwards 6", and flames. The suit is about 1" away, and the template is 8.25" long. The part over the Orks makes a rough 3"x3" box and a 5"x2" box, which can cover at most 19 models, assuming the models are placed with no distance between them. Allowing for some space means it would cover around half of that. So, covering 9 models and re-rolling gives you 6.75 casualties.
Ork turn 4:
The remaining Orks assault the suit. The suit takes 2.66 wounds from the Big Mek and Nob and dies.

TLF/MP suit killed 6.75 boyz before dying.

Trukk w 11 Boyz, Nob, Big Mek w KFF 48" from a TLMP/F suit:
Tau turn 1:
Suit fires it's MP, with a 0.5 of stopping the vehicle.
Ork turn 1:
Trukk moves 18" forward, it is now 32" away.
Tau turn 2:
Suit fires it's MP, with 0.5 of stopping the vehicle. Statistically, the vehicle is now stopped.
Ork turn 2:
Ork moves his boyz forward 9" forward. They are now 23" away.
Tau turn 3:
Suit fires it's MP, killing 0.83 boyz.
Ork turn 3:
Ork moves his boyz forward 9" forward. They are now 14" away.
Tau turn 4:
Suit fires it's MP, killing 0.83 boyz.
Ork turn 4:
Ork moves his boyz forward 9" forward. They are now 5" away.
Tau turn 5:
Suit moves forwards, and flames. The suit is about 1" away, and the template is 8.25" long. The part over the Orks makes a rough 3"x3", and about a 5"x2" box, which can cover at most 19 models, assuming the models are placed with no distance between them. Allowing for some space means it would cover around half of that. So, covering 9 models is 4.5 casualties.
Ork turn 5:
The remaining Orks assault the suit. The suit takes 2.66 wounds from the Big Mek and Nob and dies. It does not attack back.

The TLMP/F suit killed 6.16 boyz. So, the difference is 0.5 Orks, per suit. However, the TLMP/F suit has a significantly higher chance of killing the Trukk earlier, making them run the rest of the way. It would also allow you to train Pulse Fire on them sooner, and use the suit to target other Trukks. In a squad of two, it has a probability of 1 to kill the Trukk on the first turn, whereas the TLF/MP suits only get above a 1.0 probability on turn 2. This gives the TLMP/F suit an additional turn of MP the boyz, so the difference becomes 1.5 casualties per suit in favour of the TLF/MP team. (9 casualties for the TLF/MP team, 12 for the TLMP/F team)

Even ignoring all that happens when he faces any kind of MEQ? Flamers don't cut it against Blood Angels, or Bezerkers, even against IG Veterans. Anything that isn't relying on a cover save or a 5+ laughs at Flamers, then kills the suit wielding it. They don't laugh at Plasma. Especially plasma that doesn't over heat, and has an effective rapid fire range of 18". And PR/BC is 4 shots, maybe 2 wounds... You can't do wound allocation shenanigans with 2 wounds. And you say they're some of the most expensive units? What about terminators? Lictors? Dreadnoughts? The Dreadknight? Or how about we compare them to War Walkers, the vehicle version of crisis suits. Pretty much the same cost.

kaisshau wrote:Brother - Did you not see the Target Lock? And the Markerlight? He either paints something for another squad, or Melta's something juicy in range. XV15s are Jet Pack Infantry, and thus have Relentless, and thus can JSJ with Heavy Weapons.

Oh, yes, relentless and such. I know.

My issue is with the FB's range. Within 12" or, effectively, < 6", they're toast next turn, or at least, caught in h2h and thus nullified. Except against IG, Stealths are going to lose an assault, and that is why, Target Lock or not, I'd field Stealths only with BCs.

That text wall misses the point entirely and theres too much to unravel. So the short version: when the orcs are on your door step and you decide to fire the 5+5 = 10 shots off those 2 suits on BS 3, let me know how it goes for ya. Okay? Great.

While you're busy with text walls, I'm busy dealing in the reality: Ya' won't kill more doing that. I promise.

All the vehicle killing in the world isn't going to stop them from getting to you with these models.

Advise as you will. I gave mine. Now its up to the Original poster.

The reality is that you are wrong. Destroying the Trukk doubles the amount of time it takes the Orks to reach you. Meaning more time to hit them with weapons that mince Orks, such as Pulse Rifles and Burst Cannons. It also stops the rush from being coordinated - If you blow up the Big Mek's Trukk, the other Orks lose the Cover save if they rush forwards.

And Brother, yeah, but I always have him lighting things, as that is his best use. Except if my opponent lets me get within 12" of a Vindicator/Predator/Dread, which might happen every few games. 2 points to pop a Predator every few games? Yes please.

kaisshau wrote:The reality is that you are wrong.

IF you kill the trukk it doubles the amount of time it takes the Orks to reach you.
Meaning more time to hit them with weapons
It also stops the rush from being coordinated -
If you blow up the Big Mek's Trukk, the other Orks lose the Cover save if they rush forwards.
.

That is a lot of ifs. You gotta kill the truck. then you gotta hope it doesn't kareen. Then you think that "more time" is "enough time (it isn't). You're assuming he'll do al this with three broadsides against a KFF flottila. OK.

I respect my enemy more than that. I am willing to admit that he will reach me. And because I accord my opponnet the respect for being able to pull that off, I am planning accordingly.

What youre doing is trying to "assume away" a waaag".

4x crisis suits- split into (2) 2 man teams...plasma/miss.pod(keep them at distance)
3x broadsides- (3) single man squads w/ 2 shield drones a piece(place in cover)
10x gun drones- attach (2) to your commander, the other 8 use as a bump stop.
6x shield drones- goes w/ xv88's
6x stealth suits- infiltrate near objective but keep a good 18"-24" away. know this length real well.
1x crisis commander-plasma/miss.pod and keep distance or cib/ burst cannon to help with infantry. give a target array and make it a shas'el
24x fire warriors- (4)-6 man squads, place 3 on board, reserve the 4th to walk on near objective. Keep them a good distance apart so opponent can't multi-assault.
20x kroots + some unassambled -(2) 10 man squads, use to bubble wrap your 2 man crisis teams.

*This is a good start: if you want your army to grow, get more crisis suits, broadsides, kroot, and if you can grab a few tetra(they are beyond awesome). You should be good to go. And above all else, have fun!!

Thank you guys for all your help. I learned a lot from this thread and now I will test it in practice. I think I like the list kaisshau suggested more, mainly because I will be facing mostly power armoured foes. Maybe I will try to shave off a few points somewhere for plasma guns for broadsides for the same reason.