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I was playing in a game and had a squad of grey hunters in combat with a tyranid prime and carnifex. My GH luckily lived threw the first round of combat. So on my turn I drove a rhino with a RP next to the combat and there was plenty of space for me to Jaws the back of the Carnifexs base. So I jawsed him and he failed his test.

Now what im asking is is this legal? Also when it dies do the GH stay there or pile into the prime?

This honestly seems legal, but completely cheesy.

Potentially Legal, and cheesy. Of course it is, its a PK codex....

There is an implication that, as this is a PSA, you cannot target a unit in combat, and the first model touched by the line IS the target as far as Jaws goes (see the FAQ) - so if you didnt hit anything before the fex, then i would say "no"

They would not pile in, as pile in moves are made after combat, not before, and it wasnt an assault move so no move or defenders react. You sit there waiting to pile in next round, if anything is left alive.

I don't believe that you can do it because as nos said the first model touched is the "target" and you can't "target" models in CC with a shooting attack. Had there been another model in front of it not in CC and you "targeted" it, but the line hits the carnie afterward then I believe it would be legal.

A psychic shooting attack occurs in the shooting phase and is a form of shooting attack. You may not fire into close combat.

With JWW, you could have targeted an enemy unit outside of combat and ensured that the line you drew ran into the enemy in combat, but you targeting a unit in cc with a shooting attack is illegal.

Since the power is classified as a shooting attack, and you can't shoot into melee...

juraigamer wrote:Since the power is classified as a shooting attack, and you can't shoot into melee...

Not true - you cannot *target* a unit in combat, however Jaws works fine passing through combat - its just, I believe, the initial target (the first model touched) that cannot be locked in combat

nosferatu1001 wrote:Potentially Legal, and cheesy. Of course it is, its a PK codex....

A bit offtopic I know but given the consensus I'm going to go ahead briefly, are you seriously suggesting one or both of Ward and Cruddace is better than Kelly?

Yes. Gross internal imbalance and stupid entire-game-design-ignoring rules == kelly.

Eldar - atrocious internal balance. Broke 4th ed royally with flying circus stupidity - even less fun to play against than the worst spam GK army, as at least you could kill something in that game. 1/36 chance of killing a falcon back then.

DE - monstrous imbalance in the codex - why wouldnt you double the number of shots on your cheap transport for only 10pts? cheap elite blaster spam

SW - first way of breaking 5th with spam fest LF and razor spam, and undercosted GH

Orks are probably his best, and even they have some complete nobrainers and complete stinkers of unit choices

For his rules wackyness Ward has at least the concept of internal balance, gives you codexes you can write varied army lists with that are all reasonable - he just got screwed, with GK, by the accountants. The original dex didnt have 'backs or cheap psy ammo, and everything cost a heck of a lot more.

fair enough, I won't get into a discussion here, as mentioned it's not really the place, was just very interested because it really doesn't mesh with my opinion or that of most people in my regular gaming circles.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Since the power is classified as a shooting attack, and you can't shoot into melee...

Not true - you cannot *target* a unit in combat, however Jaws works fine passing through combat - its just, I believe, the initial target (the first model touched) that cannot be locked in combat

Nonsense, it's still a shooting attack, it's just you don't need to roll to hit (something I'm furious about)

You cannot deliberatly shoot into melee unless given permission, and the only thing that can affect melee (with regard to shooting attacks) is if a weapon that uses scatter dice scatters onto a melee.


With regard to the nonsense of phil kelly:

I'm surprised how much people rant on ward. It doesn't help that most DE players are wych spamming fools and eldar have fallen by the wayside.

That only leaves SW and their stupid cheap, stupid good, stupid spammy and stupid powerfulness.

juraigamer wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Since the power is classified as a shooting attack, and you can't shoot into melee...

Not true - you cannot *target* a unit in combat, however Jaws works fine passing through combat - its just, I believe, the initial target (the first model touched) that cannot be locked in combat

Nonsense, it's still a shooting attack, it's just you don't need to roll to hit (something I'm furious about)

You cannot deliberatly shoot into melee unless given permission, and the only thing that can affect melee (with regard to shooting attacks) is if a weapon that uses scatter dice scatters onto a melee.

Can you prove that with some quotes? I think you are well wrong. You can shoot into combat so long as you don't target the unit in combat.

A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not
locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire
among different targets.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jaws targets only the first model that it hits. It doesn't matter where the rest of the models are or what they rae doing just so long as the first is a valid target.

Jurai - again, reread the rules. The restriction is on targetting. Thats it.

And that is why the Vibro-cannon is able to shoot models in close combat, because there is no target. Though I do agree it is stupid that JotWW and Blood Lance don't require a To Hit roll.

So...death rays can hit units in CC...because you never select a target, just 2 points lol

Basimpo wrote:So...death rays can hit units in CC...because you never select a target, just 2 points lol

Arguably yes. Because its a line - similar to JotWW - I'd say that the first unit hit is the target... But after that it's fair game.

rigeld2 wrote:

Basimpo wrote:So...death rays can hit units in CC...because you never select a target, just 2 points lol

Arguably yes. Because its a line - similar to JotWW - I'd say that the first unit hit is the target... But after that it's fair game.

Not to derail this topic onto death rays but i think the deathray rule actually provides a precedence for what it is 'targeting.' IIRC it can choose any one unit that it hits (enemy) to fire its tesla destructor into. That would de-facto be the target for the deathray as well since the vehicle firing can still only choose one 'target.'

So the priest is with a unit of grey hunters and they want to shoot their bolters and jotww a unit thats on the other side of a combat...wouldnt that unit be the 'target'? Any intervening models would just so happen get hit by the jotww effect?

The SW FAQ defines that the first model crossed by the line is Jaws' target.

thanatos67 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Basimpo wrote:So...death rays can hit units in CC...because you never select a target, just 2 points lol

Arguably yes. Because its a line - similar to JotWW - I'd say that the first unit hit is the target... But after that it's fair game.

Not to derail this topic onto death rays but i think the deathray rule actually provides a precedence for what it is 'targeting.' IIRC it can choose any one unit that it hits (enemy) to fire its tesla destructor into. That would de-facto be the target for the deathray as well since the vehicle firing can still only choose one 'target.'

So the priest is with a unit of grey hunters and they want to shoot their bolters and jotww a unit thats on the other side of a combat...wouldnt that unit be the 'target'? Any intervening models would just so happen get hit by the jotww effect?

Not even in the slightest. You MIGHT have a point of precedence, if the SW FAQ didn't specify that the first unit hit by JotWW is the target.

Ah wasnt aware of the FAQ, so in my above description then you cant use jaws through an intervening combat?

Not legal.

I dont play wolves, so this is good to know. I've always thought my above example was correct but didnt realize it had been faq'd.

Also with the new faq regarding shooting attacks etc out of transports I'm guessing you can jotww out of a rhino anymore?

If so...good riddance

thanatos67 wrote:I dont play wolves, so this is good to know. I've always thought my above example was correct but didnt realize it had been faq'd.

Also with the new faq regarding shooting attacks etc out of transports I'm guessing you can jotww out of a rhino anymore?

If so...good riddance

You can cast JOTWW out of any transport as long as you would normally be able to fire a ranged weapon from said transport.

thanatos67 wrote:I dont play wolves, so this is good to know. I've always thought my above example was correct but didnt realize it had been faq'd.

Also with the new faq regarding shooting attacks etc out of transports I'm guessing you can jotww out of a rhino anymore?

If so...good riddance

The FAQ that explicitly allows you to use psychic powers, or shooting attacks, of which Jaws is both?

The FAQ disallows NON-shooting, NON-psychic attacks from using firepoints to draw LOS

Realllyyyy CHEESY when you do it to your Dad's carnifex in a tournament!
JERK!

Not legal and I've seen People DQd at tournaments for this.

@ 666: Do you have a rules backing for it not being legal, other than how to's have decided?

Read the latest SW FAQ. It directly addresses this particular situation.

Is jaws of the world wolf legal? No. Lol but you can't target into combat but it can hi into combat. I hate this spell with a passion.

I should have asked, are you saying drawing the lie so the first target hit is in cc is illegal, or hitting a unit in cc period is illegal?

You cant snipe with it.